Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

[JoCoSawdust]

I'll add red food coloring to my Guinness tonight to cover all bases in my celebration!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Speeder, breaker bar (with tommy bar!) are all marked in the late 40s =CRAFTSMAN= logo. Sockets are a mix of that and Long C. Also had a Circle K 1/2d universal which was a first for me. I had heard SK produced some 1/2d items for Sears but had never seen one.

As you already know, many 1/2-inch drive sets in that very late 40's era have pieces with mixed markings exhibiting the transitional period, but wow, not many of them have a Circle-K uni joint, let alone a Fors pattern ratchet! It's odd enough for me seeing an occasional "-BE" or "(H)" marking accompanying the "=CRAFTSMAN=" branding, but seeing it on a Fors pattern handle, even though you know they exist, must be a little like a Birdwatcher spotting a Kirtland's Warbler for the first time.

 

[r_olson_06]

Happy Valentines Day to me. The Fors pat cleaned up very well and works like a charm. Semi-rough casting on all but the flat panels on the handle. Question for the New Britain gurus...would the oil port have had a ball detent on it? This was part of a set in the old post-war large clam shell case, Heritage logo and leather handle. The handle is in decent condition for age. Speeder, breaker bar (with tommy bar!) are all marked in the late 40s =CRAFTSMAN= logo. Sockets are a mix of that and Long C. Also had a Circle K 1/2d universal which was a first for me. I had heard SK produced some 1/2d items for Sears but had never seen one.

Well done! A true unicorn found.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Provincial]

Early in the month I came across a Long-C screwdriver at the local flea market. It is a large one, with the working edge 1/2" wide. The Craftsman marking is still visible, and also a circle-G.

Thanks to Rileysan for alerting me to look for these! (tip-of-the-hat emoticon)

 

[Rileysan]

Early in the month I came across a Long-C screwdriver at the local flea market. It is a large one, with the working edge 1/2" wide. The Craftsman marking is still visible, and also a circle-G.

Thanks to Rileysan for alerting me to look for these! (tip-of-the-hat emoticon)

I'm happy to oblige! I'm also envious of that find. Big screwdrivers seem to be more scarce than their smaller counterparts. That's a really good find!

Brian

 

[Mintgrun]

I picked up another dirty old pipe threading tool the other day, along with a bunch of dies.



This one has a chuck-style insert-guide feature.



I guess that little box I found has a new job!


I made a little wooden tray to hold the dies. The dividers are just slipped in between them, to make them easier to remove.



Three of the dies are Craftsman. The sizes go from 1/4-1", with duplicates in 3/4 and 1".



The tool also came with insert-guides that fit the two tools I had. That made me happy.



I also made a quick and dirty handle.



Altogether, that is $43 sitting there, which seems a little steep; but it's been fun.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

That's a nice set Mintgrun. I like how the PO set it up in that carry box.

Provincial: That's only the second large amber handle screwdriver I've seen. Nice find.

This is the set the Fors rat came in. It all cleaned up well. The two largest sockets were unmarked SK. There was also a cad plate =V= socket thrown into the mix. Based on the slight bend in both the hinge handle and the tommy bar, I'd say they guy using this set was rough on tools. It would not surprise me if the Fors was a replacement for a Costello the guy trashed out. I replaced the out of place sockets with correct Craftsmans, left the Circle K universal in as an oddity. Missing the sliding T which shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

[3baygarage]

Very nice. It cleaned up well.

 

[Outlawmws]

I like the Fors ratchet. I've never seen one...

 

[r_olson_06]

That's a nice set Mintgrun. I like how the PO set it up in that carry box.

Provincial: That's only the second large amber handle screwdriver I've seen. Nice find.

This is the set the Fors rat came in. It all cleaned up well. The two largest sockets were unmarked SK. There was also a cad plate =V= socket thrown into the mix. Based on the slight bend in both the hinge handle and the tommy bar, I'd say they guy using this set was rough on tools. It would not surprise me if the Fors was a replacement for a Costello the guy trashed out. I replaced the out of place sockets with correct Craftsmans, left the Circle K universal in as an oddity. Missing the sliding T which shouldn't be too hard to find.

The circle k could have been a warranty replacement. It seems that those early universals had alot of play in them and suspect that they didn't last long espically when impact tools came out.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[JoCoSawdust]

The circle k could have been a warranty replacement. It seems that those early universals had alot of play in them and suspect that they didn't last long espically when impact tools came out.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

Very well could have been. A few of the sockets in this set have obviously served time on an impact tool. Whoever owned this was rough on his tools. Fortunately the Fors shows very little wear and tear. I suspect it was a warranty replacement as well. Makes me wonder if that's all that Sears did with the limited number of these rats they received from NB.

 

[d42jeep]

I had a similar only much more rough set I found at a Berkeley estate sale in April 2016. Unfortunately it didn’t come with a Craftsman ratchet so there is no way to know what would have been included. I can’t remember whether it was BE or Circle H. I think I paid $30.00 for it and sold it for $35.00.
-Don

 

[JoCoSawdust]

I've been thinking that the 12 socket count must have been standard on these sets. Neither of mine have any /32 sockets. Incidentally, I've yet to see the later =CRAFTSMAN= on any BE marked tools, only Circle H. Has anyone seen that later logo on BE tools? Excluding of course the very early plain font BE tools.

 

[Rileysan]

I've been thinking that the 12 socket count must have been standard on these sets. Neither of mine have any /32 sockets. Incidentally, I've yet to see the later =CRAFTSMAN= on any BE marked tools, only Circle H. Has anyone seen that later logo on BE tools? Excluding of course the very early plain font BE tools.

Circle-H - yes. BE - no.

Brian

 

[Private Lugnutz]

As long as we're having this discussion, I'll edge a question of my own in...

Does anyone have a Circle-U 1/2-inch set in a box? If so, please post photos. I discovered that the speeder will not fit in the clips for the speeder under the lid in the box that my -BE set came in. It's too short. Mine is, anyway. That made me wonder what box the Circle-U sets came in. As you guys my recall, I found my set loose.

 

[d42jeep]

JoCo,
I was thinking that a 1/4” drive socket I sent you was BE but I double checked and it was indeed a Circle H. This 1/2” drive Circle H sliding Tee is available if you have trouble finding one.
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Some circle U lugz

 

[Rileysan]

Some circle U lugz

I have 3 such boxes, and they're all basket cases. However, the 1/2" Circle-U speed wrench fits fine in the 2 that still have the metal tabs in place.

Lugz - you mentioned you were trying to fit it into a "BE" set box? If it doesn't have the Heritage logo, it's not the correct box for the Circle-U set.

Brian

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Hmm. That made me curious enough to walk out to the shop and look. Both of my Heritage clamshells can accommodate a U speeder although with the U handle being a bit thicker it took some coaxing. Side by side the U is about a 1/2" shorter than a BE or H and a bit less "stretch" on to the dynamic handle (or whatever one would call the spinny handle thingie that you actually turn to operate the tool). I took a cursory look through 44-48 catalogs for 1/2d box sets. All are NB tools. 44-47 are all female drive rats with 48 being the only year (in that time span) that had a reversible Costello rat.

I'm convinced that NB abandoned the BE markings sometime prior to ending their relationship with Sears, probably when they retooled for the new logo. I'll believe that until I see a BE tool with the late logo.

OTG: That's an incredible looking clamshell. Original paint?

Don: I'll give the estate sale world a bit of time to render me a sliding T but failing that I'll reach out for the sliding T. Thanks!

Brian: You still **** for that P&C set.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

OTG: Another question. Did you find that U set in that clam shell it's in now? I've learned the hard way that catalogs only paint a partial picture as to what was going on back then.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Both sets from the estate of a craftsman collector. As far as I know they are original.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Some circle U lugz

I have 3 such boxes, and they're all basket cases. However, the 1/2" Circle-U speed wrench fits fine in the 2 that still have the metal tabs in place.

Hmm. That made me curious enough to walk out to the shop and look. Both of my Heritage clamshells can accommodate a U speeder although with the U handle being a bit thicker it took some coaxing. Side by side the U is about a 1/2" shorter than a BE or H and a bit less "stretch" on to the dynamic handle (or whatever one would call the spinny handle thingie that you actually turn to operate the tool).

Hmmm. Okay. Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, your photos and replies only raise more questions for me.

Such as, how the heck are you guys clipping your -BE or Circle-H speeders into these clamshell boxes?!

Frankly, either we have different speeders, different Heritage boxes, different holders, or we have different ideas about how the speeder is supposed to clip into the holders on these Heritage clamshell boxes.

Let me elaborate with photos.

Here is my Circle-H set and box.

Here is a close-up of how the speeder in my Circle-H set clips into the holders.

The middle holder is key.

As you can see, the swing arm doesn't rest on top of that middle piece - it clips into it. There is pressure on the swing arm. After putting the rotating grip inside the holder on the left, and slipping the drive stud into the holder on the right, you pull the swing arm over the top of that holder in the middle, quite literally clipping it to the lid, thus immobilizing it. It can't move at all. It squeezes the speeder into place. That's what keeps it from moving around or preventing the swing arm of the speeder from swinging down when you close the lid, and also what prevents it from banging into the other pieces when it's being carried.

Here is the speeder from my Circle-U set inside the same lid.

As JoCo describes, it takes a lot of force to get the rotating grip into the holder on the left. Because the rotating grip (the entire shank, as well, btw) is slightly thicker than an NB speeder. I can accept that as a minor thing, either a slight manufacturing deviation on the holder, the holder possibly being bent from use, or Sears just expecting users to have to use a little more force to get the Circle-U speeder rotating grip into the same holder. It is barely long enough to slip into the drive stud holder on the right. But it will "accommodate" it, as JoCo said, in that respect.

But, it absolutely will not clip into the middle piece. At best, it can rest on top of it, as you guys are showing in your Circle-U sets. When I said I was experimenting with my boxless Circle-U set and the speeder was too short to fit, this is what I was referring to.

Here is the reason why.

NB Circle-H (and I suspect -BE) speeders have a different profile than Plomb Circle-U speeders. AS noted, they are shorter, but, more significantly, they have a shallower swing arm. And that shallower swing arm won't allow it to clip into place like my Circle-H speeder.

It's ironic that this involves Plomb. And anyone who has more than one Plomb 3/8-inch drive speeder probably knows what I mean. (If not, I will be blunt. Infuriatingly, not every wartime Plomb 3/8-inch drive speeder will fit into every wartime Plomb 3/8-inch drive socket drive set box!)

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I looked through the 41, 41, and 48 catalogs. There are no figures of the speeder in the lid as far as I can find. Unless one of you guys knows of one I am missing or an ad that shows it.

This all started because I was thinking of selling my Circle-U set, but I think it would sell faster in a box. So I took out all the Circle-H pieces and put all the Circle-U in there just to see what it looked like - and the first thing I discover is the Circle-U speeder won't clip to the lid.

 

[bmwrd0]

As a side note Lugz, I have a similar issue with a P&C 3/8's box and speeders. The box is the basic Plomb set box, but P&C spinners have a different set of curves to them that makes the whole thing challenging. I am now looking for a Plomb made but P&C branded spinner.

These are the times that try mens spirits!

 

[Rileysan]

Hmmm. Okay. Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, your photos and replies only raise more questions for me.

Such as, how the heck are you guys clipping your -BE or Circle-H speeders into these clamshell boxes?!



As you can see, the swing arm doesn't rest on top of that middle piece - it clips into it. There is pressure on the swing arm. After putting the rotating grip inside the holder on the left, and slipping the drive stud into the holder on the right, you pull the swing arm over the top of that holder in the middle, quite literally clipping it to the lid, thus immobilizing it. It can't move at all. It squeezes the speeder into place. That's what keeps it from moving around or preventing the swing arm of the speeder from swinging down when you close the lid, and also what prevents it from banging into the other pieces when it's being carried.

Here is the speeder from my Circle-U set inside the same lid.

*snip*

But, it absolutely will not clip into the middle piece. At best, it can rest on top of it, as you guys are showing in your Circle-U sets. When I said I was experimenting with my boxless Circle-U set and the speeder was too short to fit, this is what I was referring to.

*snip*

NB Circle-H (and I suspect -BE) speeders have a different profile than Plomb Circle-U speeders. AS noted, they are shorter, but, more significantly, they have a shallower swing arm. And that shallower swing arm won't allow it to clip into place like my Circle-H speeder.

Here's how I set mine up - with the swing arm under the tab.

Perhaps the difference in how we're mounting has to due with the state of the mounting tabs when we found our boxes?

On the two boxes I have with original mounting tabs, the middle tab was completely flat - so I just assumed one pulled the tab out and the speeder arm sat under the tab, flat against the lid. There is no sign on either of mine that tab had been bent like yours.

Brian

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That's what I meant about differences. I wish we had catalog closeups of that piece. Does the swing arm stay in place that way on yours? Or does it come off when the lid closes?

Edit: If I bent mine more like yours and Otg's, the Circle-U would be able to sit on top. But there's no way the Circle-H speeder would. The holder would have no affect on it whatsoever. It would sit under it and not even come in contact with it.

Mote confused now than before.

Have you guys put a different speeder in those boxes? If you have a Circle-H or BE please experiment with them in the same box as the Circle-U speeder.

 

[Rileysan]

That's what I meant about differences. I wish we had catalog closeups of that piece. Does the swing arm stay in place that way on yours? Or does it come off when the lid closes?

The speeder stays in place in both boxes when mounted like that.

I'll look through the 45-47 catalogs to see if there are any useful illustrations but I'm not holding my breath. The illustrations are rarely 100% accurate.

Brian

 

[AngryBeaver]

I've had this set for probably 30 years. Bought it at a swap meet when I was a kid. I used it for years in the shop and eventually upgraded my tool sets working on cars.

I keep this in the basement on the reloading bench. I know it's older, just wasn't sure how old. A couple of the snap on misc sockets were dated 1947,48, 51 and the one craftsman socket is what I assume older than the rest. Don't think I've ever seen this logo on hand tools before, just shop equipment.

The set all has this style logo

This is the one that has a different logo than the rest of the set.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, Brian. See my edits, too, please.

 

[ronr80]

Not sure this counts but it was my dad's and it still works 1/4 inch drill.

 

[ronr80]

another 1/4 drill

 

[Outlawmws]

Lugz, Maybe the catalogs for the supplying companies can shed some light instead of relying on the Craftsman catalogs?

 

[Rileysan]

I've had this set for probably 30 years. Bought it at a swap meet when I was a kid. I used it for years in the shop and eventually upgraded my tool sets working on cars.

I keep this in the basement on the reloading bench. I know it's older, just wasn't sure how old. A couple of the snap on misc sockets were dated 1947,48, 51 and the one craftsman socket is what I assume older than the rest. Don't think I've ever seen this logo on hand tools before, just shop equipment.



This is the one that has a different logo than the rest of the set.

The clam shell style socket box was used by Craftsman from about 1945 (and possibly earlier) through the 50s for socket sets made by 3 different manufacturers for Craftsman.

Your socket set, marked =V=, is an early set made by Moore Drop Forge (MDF) beginning around 1948. I say early MDF because your set has the conical shaped sockets, which were short-lived.

The odd socket is from a different manufacturer (New Britain) but from approximately the same era. If it's not a duplicate, it's possible it was a warranty replacement and that was the only socket available at that time.

Brian

 

[Rileysan]

Thanks, Brian. See my edits, too, please.

I went ahead and grabbed another speeder for a comparison. Though the depth of the handles are different, I had no trouble fitting the NB made speeder in the box - though I had to bend the tab a little more aggressively.

I also checked the 1945-47 catalogs. The illustrations are virtually identical to the 1948 catalog except that earlier sets have a non-reversible female ratchet in 45-47.

None of the illustrations show the Circle-U set, nor is the socket box illustration the same as the actual boxes we all seem to have (location of emblem and embossed lid, to mention a couple differences). All sets shown in the catalogs are NB made.

Sorry I couldn't shed any light on the topic!

Catalog captures are from 1947 (identical to 45 & 46) and 1948.

Brian

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Outlaw,

I don't know who made the boxes.

There's a pretty good view of the speeder swing arm holder on the lid - granted, an illustration, on page 2 of the 1948 catalog. The speeder is not mounted. But a pretty good view. It sure looks like it curves to me.

EDIT: Thanks, Brian. I'm going to table it for now. But just so I understand. Pic 2 is the Circle-U. And Pic 3 is the BE/Circle-H?

Otg

Without doing any bending, please post a photo of a Circle-H or BE speeder in your Circle-U set lid. I want to see where the Circle-H/BE swing arm rests in relationship to the clip. Again, without doing any bending. Just hook the rotating grip and the drive tip in their holders and let the arm rest on the lid wherever it lands. Please. Thanks.

 

[d42jeep]

Lugz, Maybe the catalogs for the supplying companies can shed some light instead of relying on the Craftsman catalogs?

I’m not sure that my early ‘50s New Britain set is going to be of much assistance. Not only haven’t I been able to get the speeder out of the box without damage, I don’t believe that the original owner ever figured it out either. My conclusion is that the factory put it there and it’s been there ever since, and there it’s gonna stay!
-Don

 

[Rileysan]

Outlaw,

I don't know who made the boxes.

There's a pretty good view of the speeder swing arm holder on the lid - granted, an illustration, on page 2 of the 1948 catalog. The speeder is not mounted. But a pretty good view. It sure looks like it curves to me.

EDIT: Thanks, Brian. I'm going to table it for now. But just so I understand. Pic 2 is the Circle-U. And Pic 3 is the BE/Circle-H?

Otg

Without doing any bending, please post a photo of a Circle-H or BE speeder in your Circle-U set lid. I want to see where the Circle-H/BE swing arm rests in relationship to the clip. Again, without doing any bending. Just hook the rotating grip and the drive tip in their holders and let the arm rest on the lid wherever it lands. Please. Thanks.

Those were both pictures of NB (None Better).

I'll start over to avoid confusion.

I have two different styles of Craftsman Circle-H 1/2" drive speed wrenches, and I tested them both in the socket box.

The first is an example that resides in a hip roof tool box, and the other 48 pieces that came in that set.

Ironically, this speeder gave me fits trying to fit into the socket box; not because of the handle depth, but because the square forged end is not square to the tool. It's turned nearly 45 degrees!

If not for the offset forged end, it would have fit just fine.

Brian

 

[Rileysan]

The second 1/2" drive speeder has the spinning handle like the BE speeder. This one is marked =Craftsman= and has the Circle-H stamping.

I didn't expect this one to fit because of the thickness of the handle, but it seems to stay just fine.

Brian

 

[Rileysan]

Brian: You still **** for that P&C set.

Don't think I didn't catch your comment!

After seeing so many 1/2" drive socket boxes in such bad condition, it makes one appreciate just how rare it is to find a set in that condition!


D42Jeep - I've finished digressing for the moment. I'll start digging for sockets now!

Brian

 

[Oldtuleguy]

My only be speeder is a very early one, and does not fit.