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Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

JoCoSawdust

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I don't have any with the grips. I've seen pictures of two pair of the amber handle lineman pliers but neither were in nearly that good of shape. There's been a set for sale on eBay for a long time that look like the previous owner met his end in Ol' Sparky.
 
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Smokeshow69

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Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

I don't have any with the grips. I've seen pictures of two pair of the amber handle lineman pliers but neither were in nearly that good of shape. There's been a set for sale on eBay for a long time that look like the previous owner met his end in Ol' Sparky.



Yeah those are rough... plus the cutting edge looks like it was used to cut bolts or something [emoji849]

I am trying to research the years the amber handle pliers were offered now. Anyone know what years they were offered? I just looked through 1935 to 1947 and couldn’t find thre amber grips. I am confident lugz yellow grips are factory because I have seen that design pattern a number of times. I just can’t find them?


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JoCoSawdust

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I've never been able to find them in the catalogs Ben and I've looked several times. There's quite a few things floating around out there that aren't in any of the catalogs (or at least the ones I have access to). I have an amber handled Dunlap claw hammer that I've pulled my hair out looking for with no luck. I know there's a lot of regional catalogs and flyers that I don't have along with some things just being sold in brick and mortar stores.
 

Smokeshow69

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I've never been able to find them in the catalogs Ben and I've looked several times. There's quite a few things floating around out there that aren't in any of the catalogs (or at least the ones I have access to). I have an amber handled Dunlap claw hammer that I've pulled my hair out looking for with no luck. I know there's a lot of regional catalogs and flyers that I don't have along with some things just being sold in brick and mortar stores.



That is what I was thinking. We know that the old catalogs leave a lot to be desired. I even looks for the grips by themselves but couldn’t find that either...

Lugz- I went back and edited my post so you didn’t see the years. I checked 1935 to 1947 and didn’t find them but the late 30’ to early 40’s is when the rest of the amber handle stuff was made before the war effort killed its run


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Gear Wolf

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I've never been able to find them in the catalogs Ben and I've looked several times. There's quite a few things floating around out there that aren't in any of the catalogs (or at least the ones I have access to). I have an amber handled Dunlap claw hammer that I've pulled my hair out looking for with no luck. I know there's a lot of regional catalogs and flyers that I don't have along with some things just being sold in brick and mortar stores.

Yep. As a guy that has a formidable collection of Sears catalogs/brochures, I can absolutely support this statement. I even have many of the regional catalogs released, year on year / season on season, when that was a practice done by Sears up through the 1950s. I can say that not every region was supplied with nor did they have the exact same products as other region's catalogs. To make matters more complicated, they are not even formatted in the same way. What is on page 800 on one catalog is likely to be 900 on another, or products shown aren't depicted at all. Philadelphia might have many different products than Memphis and so on.

While David Maher's Craftsman DVD series covers Sears catalog's that he was able to acquire from 1927 through ~2012, you only see the examples he was able to get his hands on. This has been a topic both he and I have spoken about ad nauseum with one another for the last few years. It is a multi-faceted problem. I have the catalogs, but I don't have the throughput to do what David did. David had the techniques to get the job done, but he didn't have all of the catalogs. It is a lot like the story about the husband who sold his pocket watch to buy his wife a hair brush and the wife who sold her hair to buy her husband the watch chain. Sadly, no one can really win. :sad:

For someone looking to research this topic, it his a huge problem. It is very difficult and, at times, cost prohibitive to attempt to acquire all of these various regional catalogs or brochures, assuming they are available to be purchased and intact. The pre-WW2 and WW2 era is particularly problematic.
 

Rileysan

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If I'm late to the party, bear with me. Some times it takes me a while to learn of the existence of certain items.

I came across a wrench like this on eBay a few weeks ago, but didn't jump on it because the price ($29.99 + shipping) was way too high for my tastes. However, I came across another one that was being sold with a few pre-war Vanadium DOE wrenches for a much better price of $10 + shipping last week, so I jumped. Since then, I have identified at least 4 more Craftsman wrenches just like it on eBay, so I knew it wasn't rare, even though it's not mentioned on AA

And so began the catalog search.

First, let me note the specifications:

Craftsman # 624.5430-50 DOE
1-1/4" x 1-1/8", 8" long
Unplated but finished with black lacquer (likely "japanning").

This wrench is not specifically identified in any of the catalogs I browsed from 1931-42. What I did discover is that the Craftsman "Professional welding outfit" offered a single DOE that, I assume, was used for the valves & regulators. The ads for the aforementioned welding outfits span from at least 1932 through 1942. None of the ads I viewed included a description of the wrench. Yet, I do not doubt my guess. Of the 4 current listings that include this wrench, every one is the same wrench of the same size. This can't be a coincidence!

So for your edification, here's a ca, 1932-42 Craftsman torch set wrench.

Brian
 

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JoCoSawdust

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Nice find Brian. I will say that your wrench had a much longer run time. Perhaps not for production but certainly for sales. Here's the one that came in my NOS gas set. While the first stages are date stamped Aug 1951 and the gauge faces have the Heritage logo on them, nearly everything else in the set wears Long C logo. Wrenches, the striker, the cardboard tubes the welding tips are in, the can of flux....all Long C. Even the paper label glued to the cardboard box it's all packaged in is Long C. I suspect production far exceeded sales and they just kept supplying the Long C stuff until they ran out of them.

I agree with the jappaning. Much like the Dunlap DOEs but without the bare metal cheeks.

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Smokeshow69

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Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

Yep. As a guy that has a formidable collection of Sears catalogs/brochures, I can absolutely support this statement. I even have many of the regional catalogs released, year on year / season on season, when that was a practice done by Sears up through the 1950s. I can say that not every region was supplied with nor did they have the exact same products as other region's catalogs. To make matters more complicated, they are not even formatted in the same way. What is on page 800 on one catalog is likely to be 900 on another, or products shown aren't depicted at all. Philadelphia might have many different products than Memphis and so on.



While David Maher's Craftsman DVD series covers Sears catalog's that he was able to acquire from 1927 through ~2012, you only see the examples he was able to get his hands on. This has been a topic both he and I have spoken about ad nauseum with one another for the last few years. It is a multi-faceted problem. I have the catalogs, but I don't have the throughput to do what David did. David had the techniques to get the job done, but he didn't have all of the catalogs. It is a lot like the story about the husband who sold his pocket watch to buy his wife a hair brush and the wife who sold her hair to buy her husband the watch chain. Sadly, no one can really win. :sad:



For someone looking to research this topic, it his a huge problem. It is very difficult and, at times, cost prohibitive to attempt to acquire all of these various regional catalogs or brochures, assuming they are available to be purchased and intact. The pre-WW2 and WW2 era is particularly problematic.



I had already prepped myself for this before i embarked on any catalog scanning...i have the Dave Maher set of catalogs and understand, these are just the catalogs he could locate, not including supplemental or regional catalogs... I scanned the pictures but no luck. I know just how dismal the catalogs can be for research given the artistic interpretations or lack of inclusion of certain items for sure ! I am of the opionion that sears most likely sold the grips by themselves as a supplement to the pliers.....this would explain why they are not pictured in catalogs. I posted about these amber handled pliers on the craftsman collector facebook group and while I did get the usual unhelpful or off topic responses, i did get a clue from one member which was extremely helpful. Look at what he just purchased recently.... while they are not entirely correct for this thread, i felt that they were pertinent to our discussion so felt ok with posting them. Sadly , i contacted the seller and he was sold out. I would have bought at least 2 sets, had i seen them in time!
IMG_1848.jpg
IMG_1849.jpg
 

Private Lugnutz

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Sadly, no one can really win.
Sure they can. If all the Craftsman collectors with catalogs and regional variations and Christmas supplements etc etc etc uploaded scans to a centralized location, then everyone would have access to everything, including the publications they did not have in their personal collection. And serious collectors and other marginal researchers (such as me) could collectively conduct research and analysis from the same baseline.

Have you ever been to www.collectingsnapon.com? It has scans of pretty much every known Snap-on catalog or supplement or brochure etc from 1925 to the late 1990's, and it's cross-referenced by part number for querying. Frank Murch, who established the website, did not own them all. Many Snap-on collectors contributed scans of their catalogs. They all still own the original catalogs as collector's items, retaining the monetary value in the actual paper publication, but sharing the digital versions for information purposes.

Just an idea.

Going back to the video topic. I'm not a video guy (watching or creating), so I am not your target audience, GW, but I agree with you that the state of antique and vintage tools research has never been more vibrant, in my experience, than the last few years.

As you may or mat not know, I'm notoriously hard on AA (for not sharing the catalogs in their library, so that many minds could converge on their analysis in conjunction with catalogs they do not have in their library, and for not accepting outside research that would improve their analysis and the accuracy of their information), but it was real shot in the arm to the entire community, and deserves credit for that.

The original Tools Archive attempted to remedy the catalog access issue by providing open and free access to scanned versions of all its catalogs, generously donated by members, many from right here on GJ, by providing studies that Todd or I or others published on a variety of subjects, and by providing an interactive comments field where collectors and research could collectively dialogue on topics of mystery or debate. Alas, it's a tough thing to keep going as a sideline, and TA 2.0 has been even tougher.

I wish we had a www.collectingsnapon.com type site for Craftsman.

To be honest, though, by hook and by crook, despite the forum-based topology, and with the help - I like to think, of the Stickie Index, GJ is still the best source for tools research information, in my opinion. It has a bunch of active, helpful collectors (for empirical examples), it's the only place to find the stuff you can't find on AA, it acts as a sort of nexus and conduit to outside sources, including sites where catalogs are uploaded, and several members are doing studies and deep dives right here now.
 

Macduf

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terrible shape but for $5 I couldn't leave it. odd how the spinner handle looks.
 

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Smokeshow69

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terrible shape but for $5 I couldn't leave it. odd how the spinner handle looks.



You did great for $5! The biggest midget box is worth more than that! The spinner handle is off gassing and breaking down which is why it is clouded and why your box has that rust spot. I wouldn’t keep it in that box to prevent more rust!


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Rileysan

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terrible shape but for $5 I couldn't leave it. odd how the spinner handle looks.

You got a screaming deal. That large 1/4" drive socket box is much harder to find than the standard size and will easily pull $25-$30 on eBay for the box alone.

As for the spinner, what you're seeing is common in those. Is has been outgassing and breaking down from day one. Yours is beyond repair but if I may make a suggestion, do NOT return it back the to box or leave it next to other tools. The rust you see on those other tools can be directly attributed to the deterioration of that spinner.

Brian
 

Smokeshow69

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You got a screaming deal. That large 1/4" drive socket box is much harder to find than the standard size and will easily pull $25-$30 on eBay for the box alone.

As for the spinner, what you're seeing is common in those. Is has been outgassing and breaking down from day one. Yours is beyond repair but if I may make a suggestion, do NOT return it back the to box or leave it next to other tools. The rust you see on those other tools can be directly attributed to the deterioration of that spinner.

Brian



Great minds think alike [emoji23]


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Rileysan

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Nice find Brian. I will say that your wrench had a much longer run time. Perhaps not for production but certainly for sales. Here's the one that came in my NOS gas set. While the first stages are date stamped Aug 1951 and the gauge faces have the Heritage logo on them, nearly everything else in the set wears Long C logo. Wrenches, the striker, the cardboard tubes the welding tips are in, the can of flux....all Long C. Even the paper label glued to the cardboard box it's all packaged in is Long C. I suspect production far exceeded sales and they just kept supplying the Long C stuff until they ran out of them.

I agree with the jappaning. Much like the Dunlap DOEs but without the bare metal cheeks.

attachment.php

That's very helpful and I'm happy to know my guess was correct. As for the timeline, it doesn't surprise me in the least to know these spanned several decades. It's one more "Long-C" tool added to the list of known tools offered after the war.
 

Toyo72

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I think I only have one "long C" Craftsman, that was my Dad's, or he got it from his Dad's box. Several other old USA hand tools as well in the box, a mix of things that I think he bought piecemeal as he needed. The Barcalo Buffalo wrenches in the picture were likely my Grandfather's.
 

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sdc1104

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I'm not sure if this qualifies as a long C Craftsman, but I found this 1/2" breaker bar inside of a trade-in combine when I worked at a John Deere dealership in the late 1980s. It was old then but I just cleaned it up recently. Sorry to any purists if I removed patina.
 

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JoCoSawdust

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I'm not sure if this qualifies as a long C Craftsman, but I found this 1/2" breaker bar inside of a trade-in combine when I worked at a John Deere dealership in the late 1980s. It was old then but I just cleaned it up recently. Sorry to any purists if I removed patina.

I clean em up as well. Nice find.
 

JoCoSawdust

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Re: Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

I had already prepped myself for this before i embarked on any catalog scanning...i have the Dave Maher set of catalogs and understand, these are just the catalogs he could locate, not including supplemental or regional catalogs... I scanned the pictures but no luck. I know just how dismal the catalogs can be for research given the artistic interpretations or lack of inclusion of certain items for sure ! I am of the opionion that sears most likely sold the grips by themselves as a supplement to the pliers.....this would explain why they are not pictured in catalogs. I posted about these amber handled pliers on the craftsman collector facebook group and while I did get the usual unhelpful or off topic responses, i did get a clue from one member which was extremely helpful. Look at what he just purchased recently.... while they are not entirely correct for this thread, i felt that they were pertinent to our discussion so felt ok with posting them. Sadly , i contacted the seller and he was sold out. I would have bought at least 2 sets, had i seen them in time!
IMG_1848.jpg
IMG_1849.jpg

I was happy to see that guys posting of these. I've wondered about those handles for a while now.
 

Smokeshow69

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Re: Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

I was happy to see that guys posting of these. I've wondered about those handles for a while now.



For whatever reason I had to research that rabbit hole. I didn’t think much about amber handle pliers last week but this week I was all in 100%. My add/ curiosity really gets ripping I the winter months so glad to be an instigator [emoji23] I am super disappointed I missed out on those nos handle grips but maybe more will surface in the future! There still is the whole amber handle hacksaw and the deluxe carry sets that are difficult to find so that will keep us busy!


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Gear Wolf

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Sure they can. If all the Craftsman collectors with catalogs and regional variations and Christmas supplements etc etc etc uploaded scans to a centralized location, then everyone would have access to everything, including the publications they did not have in their personal collection. And serious collectors and other marginal researchers (such as me) could collectively conduct research and analysis from the same baseline.

Have you ever been to www.collectingsnapon.com? It has scans of pretty much every known Snap-on catalog or supplement or brochure etc from 1925 to the late 1990's, and it's cross-referenced by part number for querying. Frank Murch, who established the website, did not own them all. Many Snap-on collectors contributed scans of their catalogs. They all still own the original catalogs as collector's items, retaining the monetary value in the actual paper publication, but sharing the digital versions for information purposes.

Just an idea.

Going back to the video topic. I'm not a video guy (watching or creating), so I am not your target audience, GW, but I agree with you that the state of antique and vintage tools research has never been more vibrant, in my experience, than the last few years.

As you may or mat not know, I'm notoriously hard on AA (for not sharing the catalogs in their library, so that many minds could converge on their analysis in conjunction with catalogs they do not have in their library, and for not accepting outside research that would improve their analysis and the accuracy of their information), but it was real shot in the arm to the entire community, and deserves credit for that.

The original Tools Archive attempted to remedy the catalog access issue by providing open and free access to scanned versions of all its catalogs, generously donated by members, many from right here on GJ, by providing studies that Todd or I or others published on a variety of subjects, and by providing an interactive comments field where collectors and research could collectively dialogue on topics of mystery or debate. Alas, it's a tough thing to keep going as a sideline, and TA 2.0 has been even tougher.

I wish we had a www.collectingsnapon.com type site for Craftsman.

To be honest, though, by hook and by crook, despite the forum-based topology, and with the help - I like to think, of the Stickie Index, GJ is still the best source for tools research information, in my opinion. It has a bunch of active, helpful collectors (for empirical examples), it's the only place to find the stuff you can't find on AA, it acts as a sort of nexus and conduit to outside sources, including sites where catalogs are uploaded, and several members are doing studies and deep dives right here now.


I attempted to reach out Alloy Artifacts for 2 years. In my correspondences, I offered to give Alloy Artifacts every physical catalog, brochure, etc. related to Craftsman as well as their OEMS for free, where they would only need to pay for shipping of said items. I also offered to allow them access to the prototypes and extremely rare ratchets I have via my "inter-toolbox loan" program (hahaha! :thumbup:)

The only response I had received was a solid, "No.", or literally nothing. I was offering the keys to the kingdom and the response was no? This ultimately prompted me to actually commit to doing the Craftsman Ratchet History "reboot".

Websites like Garage Journal do provide a great resource that allow an individual to more or less contribute at their leisure and read what they are interested in a "alle carte" fashion. However, users cannot contribute .pdfs, photos, or videos en masse. Most site hosts are not interested in building a database and collating it.

When I committed to doing the "reboot" I actually nearly finished the video series in 4K. It was in a similar format as the old series features about 70% of what I am now. Unfortunately, I lost a majority of the footage due to electrical failure as a result of a storm. As a result, I purchased a dedicated server, as well as upgraded all of computing hardware/software at home.

If someone was able to get a high quality server up, get the programming done, set up a site, and afford to keep it up, we'd be in business hahahaha! I would be a good candidate to do it, but I'm at least 4 years out from being able to set my server back up. We are moving, so I took the entire ensemble down.
 
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sdc1104

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No, just a rounded end on the handle. I do have an old short Wright 3/8" breaker bar from the same era that has that feature. I should clean that one up next!
 

sdc1104

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Definitely!

Does it have the 1/2" female drive in the grip to use it s an extension?

No, just a rounded end on the handle. I do have an old short Wright 3/8" breaker bar from the same era that has that feature. I should clean that one up next!
 

Private Lugnutz

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Gear Wolf

I gave up on contacting or trying to send stuff to AA years ago. I have wartime information on alloy restrictions and specifications and contracts that would improve the accuracy of their information across their entire site, for multiple mfgrs. I have 1920's sets in wooden boxes they don't have or erroneously identify or completely screw up, and in one case, fail to recognize a sort of regional partnership known for its peculiar style. I could go on.

But the 'a la carte' or 'by hook and by crook' (as I alluded to before) method works here at GJ. Everything that I have worked on in the last few years that I would've tried to send to AA in the past to fix their misinformation, from major (e.g., Plomb pebble timelines, Plomb lawsuit tools, Snap-on wartime warranty myths, etc) to minor (how Bethlehem Spark Plug started Bonney's entry into the drive tools segment, the correct Kavalar connection wrt KTF and CAM-LOC, etc) I have posted here on GJ instead. Accompanied by more formal write-ups than typical posts and charts and such as artifacts converted into jpegs. That's what I am referring to. The LesserStore/DadsTools Craftsman studies are even better examples, since they're actually on topic and more significant than my sole safecracking credit in the Craftsman field is figuring out that K-D supplied the cool little ignition pliers sets and some piston related tools...HAHA.

Between posting those kinds of studies and deep dives and little research forays inside threads, the Index in the Sticky helping people find those threads later (counteracting the site's chronological re-fresh rate), the Thread Search tool, and links to catalogs and other reference stored offboard, we are sort of trying to operate like a vintage tools history and information site on top of a vintage tools forum at the same time.

That's my view anyway. That's my raison d'etre for even being here.

As for Craftsman catalogs, I wasn't pointing the finger at you, or anyone, directly. Just saying, it can be done, and it has been done. Heck, all of the catalogs Todd is listing on the Tools Archive reboot aren't even hosted on TA anymore. They are hosted on the International Tool Catalog Library at the Internet Archive. All the PDFs that everyone sent him for TA - literally hundreds of catalogs, he has now sent to the ITCL at IA. It just serves as a handier alphabetical index for them. When you click it takes you to the ITCL.
 
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OP
O

Outlawmws

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I don’t believe Sears ever sold female end extensions? But I may be wrong?


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Smoke, I'm not sure you followed my drift - I was talking about the breaker, and some mfg's put a female opening in the grip end, so the breaker could be used as an extension.

They stopped doing that as people would stick an extension in there and use it as a cheater, and break the grip, then turn it in for the warranty...

The double end male extension Wolf mentioned was another thing entirely, for the older design ratchets that needed a driver to use (and reverse)
 

Smokeshow69

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Smokeshow69

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Gear Wolf

I gave up on contacting or trying to send stuff to AA years ago. I have wartime information on alloy restrictions and specifications and contracts that would improve the accuracy of their information across their entire site, for multiple mfgrs. I have 1920's sets in wooden boxes they don't have or erroneously identify or completely screw up, and in one case, fail to recognize a sort of regional partnership known for its peculiar style. I could go on.

But the 'a la carte' or 'by hook and by crook' (as I alluded to before) method works here at GJ. Everything that I have worked on in the last few years that I would've tried to send to AA in the past to fix their misinformation, from major (e.g., Plomb pebble timelines, Plomb lawsuit tools, Snap-on wartime warranty myths, etc) to minor (how Bethlehem Spark Plug started Bonney's entry into the drive tools segment, the correct Kavalar connection wrt KTF and CAM-LOC, etc) I have posted here on GJ instead. Accompanied by more formal write-ups than typical posts and charts and such as artifacts converted into jpegs. That's what I am referring to. The LesserStore/DadsTools Craftsman studies are even better examples, since they're actually on topic and more significant than my sole safecracking credit in the Craftsman field is figuring out that K-D supplied the cool little ignition pliers sets and some piston related tools...HAHA.

Between posting those kinds of studies and deep dives and little research forays inside threads, the Index in the Sticky helping people find those threads later (counteracting the site's chronological re-fresh rate), the Thread Search tool, and links to catalogs and other reference stored offboard, we are sort of trying to operate like a vintage tools history and information site on top of a vintage tools forum at the same time.

That's my view anyway. That's my raison d'etre for even being here.

As for Craftsman catalogs, I wasn't pointing the finger at you, or anyone, directly. Just saying, it can be done, and it has been done. Heck, all of the catalogs Todd is listing on the Tools Archive reboot aren't even hosted on TA anymore. They are hosted on the International Tool Catalog Library at the Internet Archive. All the PDFs that everyone sent him for TA - literally hundreds of catalogs, he has now sent to the ITCL at IA. It just serves as a handier alphabetical index for them. When you click it takes you to the ITCL.



Lugz we know how bad AA can be... I think in between craftsman and plomb I have seen multiple mistakes pointed out to them but they refuse to change or even make footnotes for whatever reason? I certainly do wish we had a “collecting craftsman” website like the “collecting snap on”! I am not sure why there isn’t one since I think that craftsman is perhaps one of the largest and most well names in tools with the most appeal. The best source so far is a set of catalogs collected by Dave Maher that runs from 1927 to 2013... it is very reasonably priced at $65. It certainly doesn’t have everything but is the best found so far! The regional catalogs aren’t included so that’s where a database would be handy that nationwide members could contribute! I for one really appreciate the effort you have put into the plomb tools lawsuit research and I know a lot of others do! I do like garage journal for the opportunity to create new threads or to contribute to things. I do like the sticky format you created to keep those good threads at the top as opposed to being lost to thread reply count


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Smokeshow69

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
8,368
Location
Pacific Northwest
Smoke, I'm not sure you followed my drift - I was talking about the breaker, and some mfg's put a female opening in the grip end, so the breaker could be used as an extension.

They stopped doing that as people would stick an extension in there and use it as a cheater, and break the grip, then turn it in for the warranty...

The double end male extension Wolf mentioned was another thing entirely, for the older design ratchets that needed a driver to use (and reverse)



I followed your drift but I didn’t describe it correctly [emoji23] I know that p&c and sk and some others made the female indent in the handles to be used as an extension! It can be quite handy at times!


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Oldtuleguy

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Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
10,459
Some c series 3/8 drive stuff
 

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d42jeep

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
16,531
Location
Northern California
I found a General bevel last week at a garage sale and today I realized how close a match it is to my Long C bevel with the circle R marking.
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