Single phase outlet

[threeputt]

I bought a Lincoln ac/dc welder for my shop. I have no single phase outlets, only 3- phase coming from floor in metal conduit.

Years ago I added an outlet op top of my three phase using just two 110 wires. It worked but when I came back to work at this shop I removed it as I no longer had the pressure washer.

I have three - three phase outlets in the shop and I would like to add one like I did years ago and was looking for the best way to do this now.

 

[sberry]

Show a.picture or 2 here, 1 of panel and one of current outlets. Is this in a commercial shop?

 

[alfredeneuman]

If you're going to take pictures anyway take one of the welder nameplate or at least give the model of the Lincoln welder.

 

[threeputt]

Show a.picture or 2 here, 1 of panel and one of current outlets. Is this in a commercial shop?

Yes, commercial shop. I am heading to the shop in a while and will post picture of welder where it plugs in and my shop 3-phase outlet. I am trying to keep it simple and safe.

My panel is all the was across from where my welding table is located. I can run a new service wire if I have to.

I still got the old Lincoln dome top that has a 3 phase motor and that's what I use now. It is just so loud but it still welds good.

I had an almost new Lincoln AC-225 donated to me and I would like the option to use both.

 

[sberry]

Ok, you likely do have 3, the "dome" machine, a motor generator is very good and an AC225 is noy in the same class compared to it, requires a different rod although the. Dome will run both.
There is a difference in ac/DC vs ac machines.

 

[threeputt]

Ok, you likely do have 3, the "dome" machine, a motor generator is very good and an AC225 is noy in the same class compared to it, requires a different rod although the. Dome will run both.
There is a difference in ac/DC vs ac machines.

Yes, I have welded with both and prefer DC on most what I do . I just want this one as a backup plus it didn't cost me anything and it is quite.

Here is how the dome dc 3-phase is wired in picture I included.

Back in the mid 80's I used this receptacle I have now and came off the 2- 120 volt black and red wires which have 120 volts to a receptacle fitted above this one. I used my pressure washer like this for years but as I said I. that is all gone now. Wish there was a way to plug an adapter in what I have now but I know that would probably not be safe ??

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok backup

Do you have 208Y/120 or 240D/120? Both will give 120v line to ground but only 240Delta will give 240v line to line which is what the welder needs.

The pic of that outlet doesnt help because there is no nema number and looks like no ground terminal either so not safe.

Please post a pic of the welder nameplate as previously requested. This info is needed to properly size the welder circuit.

 

[alfredeneuman]

How do the wires in the disconnect (some with old tinned copper with rubber and cloth insulation) turn into TW wire of black, red, and white at the outlet.

The whole installation should be abandoned, and run anew.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How do the wires in the disconnect (some with old tinned copper with rubber and cloth insulation) turn into TW wire of black, red, and white at the outlet.

The whole installation should be abandoned, and run anew.

Yeah the disconnect is a mess.

Mishmash of wires. Some plated others copper. Only one ground wire.

 

[threeputt]

How do the wires in the disconnect (some with old tinned copper with rubber and cloth insulation) turn into TW wire of black, red, and white at the outlet.

The whole installation should be abandoned, and run anew.[/Q

The red, black and white wires are there they are just a little dirty. The camera didn't pick up on the colors and I am not going to stick my hand in there and clean it.

 

[alfredeneuman]

You don't get the point of what I was asking:
Is there a junction box, or some other enclosure between the disconnect and the receptacle?

(EDIT) A disconnect is not required for a welder receptacle.

 

[Bert_]

Disconnect isn't really a problem. What I don't like is what appears to be a 10-50 single phase range outlet being used to supply 3 phase. That means there is no ground or neutral. Correct receptacle would be a 15-50 assuming you have 240v three phase.

To answer the original question yes you can take two Hots and a ground and use them to supply a single phase welder. Easiest would be to make an adapter pigtail with a 3-phase plug on one end and the single phase plug on the other. First I would want to get the correct plug on the wall for 3 phase.

 

[alfredeneuman]

A 240V Corner ground delta could explain the white wire.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A 240V Corner ground delta could explain the white wire.

He said he has 120v which one cannot get off a corner grounded service unless he has a transformer with a center tap.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Woops! I didn't notice that
Thanks

 

[mike93lx]

man, the one guy that actually has 3 phase power and he wants to run single phase gear. nice to see the other side of the coin.


in an attempt to help, please listen to the guys here. they aren't armchair electricians...

I bet you could get a 3 phase welder cheap or free if you look around

 

[alfredeneuman]

How do you know you have 3 phase power?
All of this info is going to be on a label on the inside of the panel, unless it's missing.

 

[threeputt]

How do you know you have 3 phase power?
All of this info is going to be on a label on the inside of the panel, unless it's missing.

I can assure you my shop has 3 phase power. Delta

 

[threeputt]

man, the one guy that actually has 3 phase power and he wants to run single phase gear. nice to see the other side of the coin.


in an attempt to help, please listen to the guys here. they aren't armchair electricians...

I bet you could get a 3 phase welder cheap or free if you look around

I don't need a 3-phase welder. I already have one. I also got a single phase welder that I am going to use. Didn't mean to get an uproar over this. Sorry I asked.
I never said there were armchair electricians here. This shop was not wired by armchair people . It was done 100 % correct in 1961. All my wires are in metal conduit that was run under the concrete slab and also above. All in metal heavy duty conduit.

 

[threeputt]

The welder I am going to wire is this
Input
single phase 60 hertz
230 volts
50 amps

I was just looking for suggestions . My shop was checked last year by a certified electrician. He said it was safe.
The pictures I was showing is how my current 3 PHASE WELDER is wired. Been that way for 59 years

 

[sberry]

Don't get shook. Many of us wish we could get 3, I am 2 far out in the brush. You will get a lot of suggestions. This is a discussion forum. I can kind of understand wanting to hook up something you got for free but as welders go that is a pos compared to your 3 phase one. It is quiet, that is its only +.

 

[sberry]

I assume the pipe is ground in this. But like the man said, wrong recept no matter who wired it. Not a grounding outlet. White used as ungrounded conductor also?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don't need a 3-phase welder. I already have one. I also got a single phase welder that I am going to use. Didn't mean to get an uproar over this. Sorry I asked.
I never said there were armchair electricians here. This shop was not wired by armchair people . It was done 100 % correct in 1961. All my wires are in metal conduit that was run under the concrete slab and also above. All in metal heavy duty conduit.

Theres at least 3 things wrong in the outlet picture and one thing wrong in the disconnect picture which make it NOT 100% correct.

That receptacle is not self grounding(if using conduit as the ground), doesnt have a ground terminal at all(its a 10-50 which is an old stove outlet no longer to be used), using white for an ungrounded phase conductor is a BIG NO-NO, and the hi-leg/stinger leg is not marked orange.

In the disconnect picture, i do not see any of the wires color coded. The stinger leg should be orange.

BTW dont be sorry you asked. Its good you asked because its wrong.

The welder I am going to wire is this
Input
single phase 60 hertz
230 volts
50 amps

I was just looking for suggestions. My shop was checked last year by a certified electrician. He said it was safe.
The pictures I was showing is how my current 3 PHASE WELDER is wired. Been that way for 59 years

Not sure how he made that determination when that is the wrong outlet for the welder, its not rated for 3 phase (should be 15-50) and it has no ground wire which makes it NOT safe.

IF an ungrounded leg inside the 3 phase welder connected to or touched the frame(think of a winding shorting to the motor chassis) there is no equipment grounding conductor that would facilitate a breaker tripping and thus someone could get shocked.

What is the grounding terminal in your welder connected to?

How many conductors are in your welders power cord?

time to get someone more competent...

I assume the pipe is ground in this. But like the man said, wrong recept no matter who wired it. Not a grounding outlet. White used as ungrounded conductor also?

Bingo

 

[alfredeneuman]

I don't quite understand. If it's a 3wire delta, how did you manage to get 120 volts?
Could it be a 4wire delta (the 4th wire is a neutral)

 

[Bert_]

The biggest issue is the outlet. It is a single phase stove outlet. Many old single phase welders actually came with this plug, but if you plugged them into your outlet you would get fried since your outlet has a hot wire connected to the prong that is supposed to be neutral.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The biggest issue is the outlet. It is a single phase stove outlet. Many old single phase welders actually came with this plug, but if you plugged them into your outlet you would get fried since your outlet has a hot wire connected to the prong that is supposed to be neutral.

Except he using it for a 3 phase weder so the third terminal is the third hot leg.

Big hot mess

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don't quite understand. If it's a 3wire delta, how did you manage to get 120 volts?
Could it be a 4wire delta (the 4th wire is a neutral)

Where did he say its 3-wire?

 

[Bert_]

Except he using it for a 3 phase weder so the third terminal is the third hot leg.

Big hot mess

That's what I mean. Three hots instead of two hots and a neutral.

Things will get crispy if you try plugging in anything that is expecting a neutral.

 

[Norcal]

That's what I mean. Three hots instead of two hots and a neutral.

Things will get crispy if you try plugging in anything that is expecting a neutral.

My thoughts also, and if it is a appliance intended for that receptacle somebody will be killed or injured as soon as they touch the frame.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes they would get crispy if they used single phase equipment with that outlet.

Not so much with the 3 phase welder he was using with it unless it has a fault to the chassis with no ground connection.

Whoever his “certified” electrician is, he obviously doesnt know what hes doing.

 

[sberry]

Take this to heart. There is quite a concensus here. More than "someone on the Internet told me". I hadn't even considered that.besides the fact that anything g plugged in to this wasn't grounded,,, that someone plugging something single in has a good chance of being electrocuted.
This is way beyond the kind of risk like not wearing a seat belt but this is really bad.

 

[sberry]

The word liability gets tossed around a lot as a scare tactic and most of the time overblown. Not here, it's very appropriate, wouldn't even be simple human error but criminal negligence.

 

[mike93lx]

I don't need a 3-phase welder. I already have one. I also got a single phase welder that I am going to use. Didn't mean to get an uproar over this. Sorry I asked.
I never said there were armchair electricians here. This shop was not wired by armchair people . It was done 100 % correct in 1961. All my wires are in metal conduit that was run under the concrete slab and also above. All in metal heavy duty conduit.

The rest of this thread speaks perfectly to my point.

 

[alfredeneuman]

He never said it was a 3 wire. I was making a point.
One wire of the 4 wire circuit is 208 volts to neutral. There are not any that are 110V, but rather 120V.
He's just lucky he didn't lucky he didn't choose that leg.
I think the requirement for identification of that high-leg was in effect even in 1961.(I KNOW the rule for the color of the neutral was in effect much before that time)
Pulling a ground wire in rigid conduit was pretty unheard of at that time.
Where did he get the neutral?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The OP mustve been shocked by all our comments as he hasnt returned

 

[threeputt]

I am still here.

I sold the welder for a nice profit so I don't need any wiring now.

My Old Lincoln 3-phase still works even though some here say it is not safe. Been this way for 60 years.

My old Atlas drill press is also connected to this circuit also.

Other than someone going cheap in 1961 using these old stove outlets what other dangers am I looking at because from what I was told it was grounded through the metal conduit. I could always put warning labels on all three outlets and I can guarantee you I would never plug anything but my welder and drill press.
I have been in this shop for 50 years and owned it for 40 of those years. I know what these outlets are for.

Nobody but me is going to use this shop. My son knows about this and I have told him to just hire someone to cut these circuits out of the shop all together when I pass. For now I am going to use them as I have for the last 50 years.

I may just put these in plexiglass and bolt to wall at outlets even though it don't have 440 volts but it does have 3 phase.. or put the one that says 3-phase 220 volts which is really is. At least there is a warning .

 

[Joe From NY]

man, the one guy that actually has 3 phase power and he wants to run single phase gear. nice to see the other side of the coin.

I thought the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bert_]

I am still here.

I sold the welder for a nice profit so I don't need any wiring now.

My Old Lincoln 3-phase still works even though some here say it is not safe. Been this way for 60 years.

My old Atlas drill press is also connected to this circuit also.

Other than someone going cheap in 1961 using these old stove outlets what other dangers am I looking at because from what I was told it was grounded through the metal conduit. I could always put warning labels on all three outlets and I can guarantee you I would never plug anything but my welder and drill press.
I have been in this shop for 50 years and owned it for 40 of those years. I know what these outlets are for.

Nobody but me is going to use this shop. My son knows about this and I have told him to just hire someone to cut these circuits out of the shop all together when I pass. For now I am going to use them as I have for the last 50 years.

I may just put these in plexiglass and bolt to wall at outlets even though it don't have 440 volts but it does have 3 phase.. or put the one that says 3-phase 220 volts which is really is. At least there is a warning .

I agree it "works". The metal conduit is ground but you only have three prongs on the outlet and all are being used for phase (Hot) conductors. That mean the welder doesn't get grounded.

Definitely somebody just being cheap. Even now I can get a 10-50 (the outlet you have) for $5. The correct 15-50 outlet goes for close to $40. Can't cost much more to make but I guess it's less common.

A label is definitely a move in the right direction.

This pretty much equivalent to using a standard 120V outlet for 240V tools. It works but makes it way too easy for somebody else to plug something in not meant for the outlet.

 

[sberry]

The signs are work,,, all this is the long way around simply putting the correct outlet on.

 

[threeputt]

man, the one guy that actually has 3 phase power and he wants to run single phase gear. nice to see the other side of the coin.


in an attempt to help, please listen to the guys here. they aren't armchair electricians...

I bet you could get a 3 phase welder cheap or free if you look around

I don't need a 3 phase welder cheap. I already have one.

You know shops do need single phase things ever now and then . I guess the single phase air compressor I just bought should be tossed in trash.

I also do know these aren't armchair electricians . I don't think I ever posted that

This shop was built when I was only age 13 , almost 60 years ago. I don't need 3-phase power but I got it. I am not going to buy a converter when I can get what I need wired from my panel using single phase.

For what I do I could get by with my generator but I do need power to play my tv and Sirius radio

I am retired and only do small projects now. I buy and sell ezgo golf carts so I also need a shop fan