Smart Meters…

[LopezBart]

Our local co-op installed Smart meters long ago... with most of our power coming from hydroelectric and used for heat in the winter, time-based charges aren't really a thing as yet. But we have plenty of folks living way down twisty private roads and drives, and it makes life easier for everyone not to have meter readers out looking for meters. Being able to look at one's own power demands hour by hour is also pretty neat.

 

[reader2580]

Like standing on the surface of the sun.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic about the temperature I keep my A/C at, or what? The big issue for comfort for me is humidity control. It can be quite humid in Minnesota, but with fairly low temps. My A/C unit seems to be properly sized, but it can't remove humidity well when temperatures are in the mid 70s since the unit hardly runs. I will likely get an inverter type A/C when I have to replace my A/C, but hopefully not for at least a decade since my unit isn't quite a decade old.

I got heat exhaustion twice in two weeks in 2003. Ever since then I have issues with heat, especially with high humidity. I will get heat related illness one to four times a year even if I drink water and Gatorade like crazy, and stay in the shade. I never have heat issues in dry areas of the country so long as I drink water regularly. I spent two weeks in a tent in West Virginia last summer, and I was lucky to never get sick from the heat and humidity. The humidity was sky high, and many mornings there was fog from the humidity. I drank water and Gatorade almost constantly.

 

[mm08822]

If I was concerned, internet and cell phone is a bigger info give away.

This will fix all...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic about the temperature I keep my A/C at, or what? The big issue for comfort for me is humidity control. It can be quite humid in Minnesota, but with fairly low temps. My A/C unit seems to be properly sized, but it can't remove humidity well when temperatures are in the mid 70s since the unit hardly runs. I will likely get an inverter type A/C when I have to replace my A/C, but hopefully not for at least a decade since my unit isn't quite a decade old.

I got heat exhaustion twice in two weeks in 2003. Ever since then I have issues with heat, especially with high humidity. I will get heat related illness one to four times a year even if I drink water and Gatorade like crazy, and stay in the shade. I never have heat issues in dry areas of the country so long as I drink water regularly. I spent two weeks in a tent in West Virginia last summer, and I was lucky to never get sick from the heat and humidity. The humidity was sky high, and many mornings there was fog from the humidity. I drank water and Gatorade almost constantly.

Get a dehumidifier

 

[zendriver]

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic about the temperature I keep my A/C at, or what? The big issue for comfort for me is humidity control. It can be quite humid in Minnesota, but with fairly low temps. My A/C unit seems to be properly sized, but it can't remove humidity well when temperatures are in the mid 70s since the unit hardly runs. I will likely get an inverter type A/C when I have to replace my A/C, but hopefully not for at least a decade since my unit isn't quite a decade old.

I got heat exhaustion twice in two weeks in 2003. Ever since then I have issues with heat, especially with high humidity. I will get heat related illness one to four times a year even if I drink water and Gatorade like crazy, and stay in the shade. I never have heat issues in dry areas of the country so long as I drink water regularly. I spent two weeks in a tent in West Virginia last summer, and I was lucky to never get sick from the heat and humidity. The humidity was sky high, and many mornings there was fog from the humidity. I drank water and Gatorade almost constantly.

At 74 degrees you are much closer to what the recommended AC temps should be set to.

We've done it before (and many others) have the thermostat set so low, we need blankets at night. Can't imagine why electricity sometime is in very short supply.

Too many keep their homes like a meat locker, versus getting used to warmer temps. When it gets really hot, then the problems start.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Get a dehumidifier

I got a busted whole house unit off *bay and had my friendly service guy braze and recharge it after they shipped it wrapped in paper and tape.

runs great now! and it actually has service fittings. still cost way less than retail.

 

[reader2580]

Too many keep their homes like a meat locker, versus getting used to warmer temps. When it gets really hot, then the problems start.

Some stores like to keep their stores at a temperature where you almost have to wear a jacket in the summer.

The office tower where I work has at times had their lobby in the low 60s during the summer. It is such a waste of energy. At least the office floors are at a much higher temperature.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic about the temperature I keep my A/C at, or what? The big issue for comfort for me is humidity control. It can be quite humid in Minnesota, but with fairly low temps. My A/C unit seems to be properly sized, but it can't remove humidity well when temperatures are in the mid 70s since the unit hardly runs. I will likely get an inverter type A/C when I have to replace my A/C, but hopefully not for at least a decade since my unit isn't quite a decade old.

I got heat exhaustion twice in two weeks in 2003. Ever since then I have issues with heat, especially with high humidity. I will get heat related illness one to four times a year even if I drink water and Gatorade like crazy, and stay in the shade. I never have heat issues in dry areas of the country so long as I drink water regularly. I spent two weeks in a tent in West Virginia last summer, and I was lucky to never get sick from the heat and humidity. The humidity was sky high, and many mornings there was fog from the humidity. I drank water and Gatorade almost constantly.

I was a ***** when I was younger and experienced actual heat stroke. I now melt like a popsicle at temperatures about 75 degrees.

If our house is more than 72 degrees I feel like I'm suffocating.

 

[reader2580]

I was a ***** when I was younger and experienced actual heat stroke. I now melt like a popsicle at temperatures about 75 degrees.

I was probably pretty close to heat stroke the first time I had heat exhaustion. I ended up vomiting. I was stupid and wearing long pants in 110F weather with dew points in the low 70s probably. I also drank very little water. The travel trailer we brought with us was in the shop for the day and our water was in the travel trailer. I certainly could have gotten water from someone. People have no issues with providing water to others at these events, especially if you give them water back later.

The second time I got heat exhaustion was at a Boy Scout summer camp within two weeks of the first time. It was late evening and they rounded up the EMT and opened up the health lodge for me. They just gave me Gatorade and had me sleep on a bed in the air conditioned health lodge overnight. Luckily, they had added room air conditioners a few years earlier for issues like mine.

 

[LopezBart]

As a volunteer at Burning Man, heat problems are some of our most common health issues. People keeping themselves hydrated and consuming sufficient salt/electrolytes is critical. The worst problems arise if the weather is very hot as people arrive; they're busy trying to set up camp and working hard, and they're not yet acclimated to the conditions (4500 ft elevation, daytime high temps sometimes reaching 115 but usually around 100, with 5-10% relative humidity). The watch word is piss clear - if you aren't peeing every hour or two, and if your urine isn't almost clear as water, you're not hydrating sufficiently.

 

[reader2580]

As a volunteer at Burning Man, heat problems are some of our most common health issues. People keeping themselves hydrated and consuming sufficient salt/electrolytes is critical. The worst problems arise if the weather is very hot as people arrive; they're busy trying to set up camp and working hard, and they're not yet acclimated to the conditions (4500 ft elevation, daytime high temps sometimes reaching 115 but usually around 100, with 5-10% relative humidity). The watch word is piss clear - if you aren't peeing every hour or two, and if your urine isn't almost clear as water, you're not hydrating sufficiently.

I go to a rocket launch in late September every year a few miles north of the Burning Man site. They are still doing the final cleanup while we are there. Anyhow, I will drink water all day long and not have to urinate very often. Most nights while I am there I will have to get up and urinate two or three times. I almost never get up to urinate at night when I am at home.

 

[larry4406]

Smart meters = urination

Wow we have really gone off the rails on this one.

 

[dave*99]

Smart meters = urination

Wow we have really gone off the rails on this one.

I disagree. Some folks have a piss poor opinion of smart meters.

 

[dcg9381]

I disagree. Some folks have a piss poor opinion of smart meters.

That's how you save a thread!

 

[reader2580]

I think there are a small group worried about smart meters. I would guess at least 50% of Americans would have no idea what a smart meter even is. The ones who do know what it is are mostly not worried about them.

 

[MovingAlong]

Surprising to see folks worried about Smart Meters - while posting to public forums on the internet!

Think it all the way through kids...

 

[4 FN 27]

I think there are a small group worried about smart meters. I would guess at least 50% of Americans would have no idea what a smart meter even is. The ones who do know what it is are mostly not worried about them.

Surprising to see folks worried about Smart Meters - while posting to public forums on the internet!

Think it all the way through kids...

The issue for me is Time of Use billing...Excel will be charging up to 7 times the normal rate between 3 and 9 pm depending on your usage.

My Wife fought them so far on the house and we are not getting one. My Shop, since I have 3 phase commercial power on a residential property have no choice to opt out. I'll hit the disconnect from 3-9.

Our business currently gets billed $28K on average a month. Waiting to see what the bill looks like after TOU billing. One more thing that make us less competitive than other areas of the country or globally for that matter...no big deal right...we just pass the cost on to the consumer...or if we loss the work we just right-size the company. That is how it works...$20 minimum wage mandates = $8.50 cheese burgers.

 

[Just_Steve]

Our smart meter with the Emporia Home Energy Monitor reads down to the second.
In the graph, the big drop is because I turned on a space heater for a minute and then turned it off. Keep in mind, the Green part is us pushing electricity to the grid from solar, and when it drops it turns blue because at that point it is pulling from the grid as well as using what the panels are producing (no batteries we are on a 1:1 net metering program)

Lucky you NEM 1........NEM 3 is a kick in the teeth for new solar owners in Cali.

 

[Git]

I know from personal experience TOU does not work for us. We installed Solar in 2016 and got in under the 1st NEM agreement. We get full credit for any excess electricity pushed back onto the grid and we can keep our domestic (tiered) rate plan. Under tiered rates, the price increases with how much electricity you use each month. With Solar, and NEM 1 where we don't need a battery because the grid is our battery, the only time we get up into the highest tier is during the summer months.

Atone-pointt Southern California Edison indicated we would save money by switching to TOU (LMAO). After all, they had all of our usage info... But, they guaranteed that after a year, if it cost us more, they would apply the old tier rates instead. Well, it cost more under TOU - at least $1,000 a year more, and then was 3 or 4 years ago

 

[Git]

Lucky you NEM 1........NEM 3 is a kick in the teeth for new solar owners in Cali.

NEM 3 Requires expensive batteries because they want you to 'time shift'. Charge the batteries either with solar or cheaper electricity overnight, and then pull from the batteries during peak hours. Our solar paid for itself in a little over 6 years. Now under NEM 3 it would probably be double

Also, California is looking at adding a monthly surcharge to your electricity bill, BASED ON YOUR ANNUAL INCOME.

New California laws 2024: Income-based electric bills

California residents might soon find their electric bills to be reflective of income, rather than actual electricity usage, under this new state law.

www.foxla.com

 

[Just_Steve]

NEM 3 Requires expensive batteries because they want you to 'time shift'. Charge the batteries either with solar or cheaper electricity overnight, and then pull from the batteries during peak hours. Our solar paid for itself in a little over 6 years. Now under NEM 3 it would probably be double

Also, California is looking at adding a monthly surcharge to your electricity bill, BASED ON YOUR ANNUAL INCOME.

New California laws 2024: Income-based electric bills

California residents might soon find their electric bills to be reflective of income, rather than actual electricity usage, under this new state law.

www.foxla.com

And yet the state wants everyone to be green, I think they speak with a forked tongue. My power company charges me $42 a month even though I'm net positive at the end of most every billing cycle. I have 5.2mwh in the bank.

 

[reader2580]

The issue for me is Time of Use billing...Excel will be charging up to 7 times the normal rate between 3 and 9 pm depending on your usage.

My Wife fought them so far on the house and we are not getting one. My Shop, since I have 3 phase commercial power on a residential property have no choice to opt out. I'll hit the disconnect from 3-9.

Our business currently gets billed $28K on average a month. Waiting to see what the bill looks like after TOU billing. One more thing that make us less competitive than other areas of the country or globally for that matter...no big deal right...we just pass the cost on to the consumer...or if we loss the work we just right-size the company. That is how it works...$20 minimum wage mandates = $8.50 cheese burgers.

Xcel is proposing just over 28 cents per KWH during peak hours per the Star Tribune article on February 6th. Not even close to seven times as much. I don’t agree with TOU because most working people use upwards of 50% of electricity during peak hours.

You won’t be forced to have TOU initially. I also recall reading back in February that commercial customers won’t be impacted.

 

[4 FN 27]

Xcel is proposing just over 28 cents per KWH during peak hours per the Star Tribune article on February 6th. Not even close to seven times as much. I don’t agree with TOU because most working people use upwards of 50% of electricity during peak hours.

You won’t be forced to have TOU initially. I also recall reading back in February that commercial customers won’t be impacted.

Cut and paste from a post I made about 2 weeks ago:

"This is a hot topic in our household. In the past 30 days, my Wife has spent a few days on the phone with Excel put on hold, transfer after transfer and due to her not letting it go found a person willing to tell her where this is heading."

From the Pioneer Press April 22? I think:



Either way this is not a way to gather information to see what your buying habits are or eavesdrop on every conversation or thought...it is about money...pure and simple.

As noted, We were able to opt out on the House. No option to opt out on the Commercial Power going into the Shop. Same goes with our business. My Wife and our CFO are requesting to speak at the up coming hearings related to the current legislature to approve this plan.

 

[rharman]

I know from personal experience TOU does not work for us. We installed Solar in 2016 and got in under the 1st NEM agreement. We get full credit for any excess electricity pushed back onto the grid and we can keep our domestic (tiered) rate plan. Under tiered rates, the price increases with how much electricity you use each month. With Solar, and NEM 1 where we don't need a battery because the grid is our battery, the only time we get up into the highest tier is during the summer months.

Atone-pointt Southern California Edison indicated we would save money by switching to TOU (LMAO). After all, they had all of our usage info... But, they guaranteed that after a year, if it cost us more, they would apply the old tier rates instead. Well, it cost more under TOU - at least $1,000 a year more, and then was 3 or 4 years ago

Everyone is different. TOU has saved us a ton! We do keep a pretty good eye on our usage. When primetime hits, A/C goes off if we're using it. We try to minimize its use anyway.

 

[rharman]

NEM 3 Requires expensive batteries because they want you to 'time shift'. Charge the batteries either with solar or cheaper electricity overnight, and then pull from the batteries during peak hours. Our solar paid for itself in a little over 6 years. Now under NEM 3 it would probably be double

Also, California is looking at adding a monthly surcharge to your electricity bill, BASED ON YOUR ANNUAL INCOME.

New California laws 2024: Income-based electric bills

California residents might soon find their electric bills to be reflective of income, rather than actual electricity usage, under this new state law.

www.foxla.com

Some politicians are starting to squirm as reality starts to sink in.

It's already been removed from the proposed legislation. Replaced by a fixed infrastructure fee.

California regulator takes income-based electric bills off the table

CPUC’s new proposal ditches the controversial plan to charge ratepayers based on their income and instead puts forth fixed monthly charges.

www.canarymedia.com

 

[Git]

Thats good to hear, I hadn't kept up - thanks for sharing that

 

[wyliesdiesels]

speaking of solar

California ‘throwing away’ wasted solar power may raise electricity prices - Washington Examiner

California is experiencing an abundance of solar energy which goes wasted during the day, raising overall energy prices

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[MovingAlong]

Either way this is not a way to gather information to see what your buying habits are or eavesdrop on every conversation or thought...it is about money...pure and simple.

Yeah, business tends to be that way... and if you're a shareholder (or business owner) then you can appreciate that income not only has to cover current costs but future investments as well.

Power plants are expensive:



Ever wonder why a company (in business to sell power) would offer rebates for energy efficient appliances?

When you find yourself asking "Why don't they ____?" or saying "I don't understand why they do ____.", keep digging until you do understand their point of view. They have reasons and may be balancing factors that don't get much ink or air time.

Frustrating having to make choices based on sound bites or someone else's interpretation of a situation. No issue of this magnitude (public energy) is that simple...

 

[DC73]

The issue for me is Time of Use billing...Excel will be charging up to 7 times the normal rate between 3 and 9 pm depending on your usage.

Not 7 times normal rates. 7 times off peak rates which are much less than normal rates. Around here, Xcel is not forcing anyone onto TOU rates. It's a choice for now.

 

[Git]

Yeah, business tends to be that way... and if you're a shareholder (or business owner) then you can appreciate that income not only has to cover current costs but future investments as well.

Power plants are expensive:



Ever wonder why a company (in business to sell power) would offer rebates for energy efficient appliances?

When you find yourself asking "Why don't they ____?" or saying "I don't understand why they do ____.", keep digging until you do understand their point of view. They have reasons and may be balancing factors that don't get much ink or air time.

Frustrating having to make choices based on sound bites or someone else's interpretation of a situation. No issue of this magnitude (public energy) is that simple...

Let's be realistic for a moment...

Note the word "potentially" as in if they switch to TOU rates, they could potentially avoid having to build an expensive power plant...

So what about all this 'green energy' stuff where we all need to switch to EV's and the use of natural gas and other fossil fuels needs to be discouraged if not prohibited - what is going to pick up the slack for these energy sources?

Who are they trying to fool - the power grid can't really support what we have right now, let alone EV's and all these other things. We need more power plants now, including nuclear!

 

[reader2580]

Everyone is different. TOU has saved us a ton! We do keep a pretty good eye on our usage. When primetime hits, A/C goes off if we're using it. We try to minimize its use anyway.

The only reason you're saving a ton is because you apparently choose to live like cave men from 4 pm to 8 pm. I don't want to live without electricity during the main time of day I am home every day.

It would be 80+ degrees in my house by 8 pm if I turned off the A/C from 4 pm to 8 pm every weekday. Why have modern amenities like A/C if we can't even use them? I already keep the temperature at 78 degrees until 5 pm on the days I go to the office so on those days it would be well over 80 degrees by 8 pm with minimal, or no A/C from 6 am until 8 pm.

I would have to wait to start cooking dinner until 8 pm and I would be ravenously hungry by the time I was done cooking. It is also not good to eat at 8:30 pm when I go to bed by 9:15 pm when I have to be in the office the next day. The reality is I would probably go out and buy some fast food, or eat junk food because I wouldn't have the discipline to wait until 8:30 pm to eat dinner. I would have to be darn sure to wash all of my clothes on the weekend since I couldn't start the laundry at 8 pm and have it dry and put away before bedtime.

My TV uses 400 watts so no watching any TV in the evening anymore. (Not a bad thing I guess.) I could get a new TV, but the one I would buy is the LG G4 OLED 55" and it costs over $2,000 with tax. The LG takes under 100 watts. No using any corded electric tools instead of watching TV because that would use expensive electricity.

 

[reader2580]

Either way this is not a way to gather information to see what your buying habits are or eavesdrop on every conversation or thought...it is about money...pure and simple.

As noted, We were able to opt out on the House. No option to opt out on the Commercial Power going into the Shop. Same goes with our business. My Wife and our CFO are requesting to speak at the up coming hearings related to the current legislature to approve this plan.

This is from the Star Tribune article. The peak rates will be just over, or just under, twice the current rates depending on season. I'm sure you can get the proposed rates from the MN PUC. Xcle is also proposing to let customers opt out.

The seven times higher is comparing the lowest off peak rate to the highest peak rate.

I don't like it, but I am not freaking out about it. My electricity is from Connexus, not Xcel. Connexus has a completely optional TOU plan, but as a customer with solar I am not even allowed to sign up for the TOU plan. No doubt the state will mandate TOU at some point.

 

[mm08822]

TOD rates are all about penalizing/rewarding users who add to/reduce the peak loading on the grid.
The peak energy standby equipment is usually a high fuel, high cost consumption gen.
Helping the POCO trim the peaks and shift to the lower demand times allows for better use of lower cost generation.

In a perfect POCO world, the demand curve would be flat throughout the day to maximize the production of lowest cost power.

With TOD rate structures similar to above, makes power walls, midnight ev charging, program-delayed appliances more attractive.

 

[ericm]

We switched to a TOD plan a while back under a scheme with PG&E where we could go back to regular metering if we didn't like it. It's not been bad. We try to do stuff like running the laundry or dishwasher or electric oven before or after the high rate period kicks in (5-8pm) but if we don't we don't worry about it. Cost has been about the same as before. If it's hot we try to pre cool the house by a few degrees and then let it coast up a few degrees without running the A/C. It's been a fairly minimal adaptation.

Of course the details of the plan and your usage will affect how well it works for you.

There are a lot of commercial battery plants that came on line recently or are coming on line soon to soak up that solar power and feed it back later.

An interesting tool to look at a utility's power mix over different time periods: https://app.electricitymaps.com

 

[reader2580]

With TOD rate structures similar to above, makes power walls, midnight ev charging, program-delayed appliances more attractive.

The batteries would need replacement before I ever saved enough money to make up for the higher rates. Enough batteries to cover those four hours every day plus an inverter would cost between $5,000 and $10,000 before any tax credits. The cost depends on if you buy a brand name battery with inverter built-in, if you buy 48 volt DC batteries and inverter separately and do the cabling yourself.

 

[mm08822]

The batteries would need replacement before I ever saved enough money to make up for the higher rates. Enough batteries to cover those four hours every day plus an inverter would cost between $5,000 and $10,000 before any tax credits. The cost depends on if you buy a brand name battery with inverter built-in, if you buy 48 volt DC batteries and inverter separately and do the cabling yourself.

Everybody's situation is different. You have to run the #'s for yourself.

 

[Git]

"Storm destroys the world's largest floating Solar Panel Farm"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787224785170190752

 

[Copymutt]

Everyone is different. TOU has saved us a ton! We do keep a pretty good eye on our usage. When primetime hits, A/C goes off if we're using it. We try to minimize its use anyway.

From a supplier stand I get this. Aging/ retired pop is increasing. No biggie to do laundry or bake or sauna or weld stuff during off peak hrs. That decreases demand during peak.. It’s a win/win/win.

 

[Git]

From a supplier stand I get this. Aging/ retired pop is increasing. No biggie to do laundry or bake or sauna or weld stuff during off peak hrs. That decreases demand during peak.. It’s a win/win/win.

So you work all day, fight traffic to get home and from 4 PM to 9 PM you pay $.61 per kWh!

 

[Copymutt]

So you work all day, fight traffic to get home and from 4 PM to 9 PM you pay $.61 per kWh!

Sorry you didn’t get that.
If those who have flexibility in their usage were not to take advantage of off peak, your rate would be higher still as everyone would be sucking on the straw at the same time when the generation is maxed out. That increases brown outs, black outs, increased rates. No matter the rate you may end up without juice.