wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
To all you arc fault lovers out there 
Snake oil!!
- Thread starter wyliesdiesels
- Start date
Snapped-off
Well-known member
So it did ultimately trip from an arc?
Test SAT.
Test SAT.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Hey, breaker company execs have boat payments too
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Hair dryers still are, that's why AFCI
rooster59
Well-known member
I have a Swiss Bosch hammer drill and a big German Metabo drill that trip an arc fault real quick. Brushes are fine, blue sparking is minimal.
It would be nice if they would keep computers and chips and other processing equipment out of the electric panel and rely on simple physics to protect us from faults in wiring and electric components, but the world seems hell bent in putting computer technology places where it does not need to be. Some places it's great, some places I want a choice, like the three way switch conversation a while back, I'm fine with a mechanical switch instead of some computerized ****. Nothing against computers, my career has been electronics, telecommunications, networking, unix admin, and for the last 20 years cybersecurity. Maybe I'd be ok with it if it wasn't all Chinese **** with ****** software. Maybe a Siemens or Allen Bradley solution would be ok but who wants a $20K electric panel in there house when a Square D and circuit breakers works just fine.
NostraThpmas
Active member
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Same dude....
Arc Fault Breakers
Arc Fault Breakers
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
I question the need for things like AF breakers and tamper resistant receptacles. I raised 2 kids and now have 6 grandchildren. The plastic safety plugs have been more than adequate.
GFCIs make sense, especially in damp location or where there is a concrete floor. However, there are still too many false trips (son has an old washing machine; tripped mid cycle 3 out of 5 times; swapped in a normal receptacle).
I would NEVER plug a refrigerator/freezer into a GFCI ! The risk of loosing the contents is just too high !
The NEC is written by people who are "in the industry", which means they are EMPLOYEED by one of the major electrical suppliers. Of course they want you to be "safe", but mandating equipment that has not been required for 100 years and has resulted in very few injuries/deaths seems like a good way to get a promotion !
Segue - How many MILLIONS of homes in the US still do NOT have a single bond on their electrical system AND a ground rod ? How many 240VAC appliances (that use 120VAC internally) use only 3 wires ? Show me one documented case where either these have cause fire/injury. If fire/injury was common, you can bet the residential insurance companies would charge a premium for homes that do not comply with the current NEC !
GFCIs make sense, especially in damp location or where there is a concrete floor. However, there are still too many false trips (son has an old washing machine; tripped mid cycle 3 out of 5 times; swapped in a normal receptacle).
I would NEVER plug a refrigerator/freezer into a GFCI ! The risk of loosing the contents is just too high !
The NEC is written by people who are "in the industry", which means they are EMPLOYEED by one of the major electrical suppliers. Of course they want you to be "safe", but mandating equipment that has not been required for 100 years and has resulted in very few injuries/deaths seems like a good way to get a promotion !
Segue - How many MILLIONS of homes in the US still do NOT have a single bond on their electrical system AND a ground rod ? How many 240VAC appliances (that use 120VAC internally) use only 3 wires ? Show me one documented case where either these have cause fire/injury. If fire/injury was common, you can bet the residential insurance companies would charge a premium for homes that do not comply with the current NEC !
NostraThpmas
Active member
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- Jul 17, 2023
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- 37
It's a myth that code requires a refrigerator/freezer to be on a GFCI. The code says GFCI is required in kitchens "where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces".
Best practice is to put a refrigerator/freezer on a dedicated circuit (less chance of trip) on a non-GFCI receptacle in the refrigerator/freezer bay.
But all of my garage/basement outlets need to be GFCI.
Lots of people have garage fridges
cvairwerks
Well-known member
I've got a GFCI outlet in the garage that thunder will trip.....Been in the house since 2008 and changed it several times and it still does it.
I had run new kitchen circuits and a few in the basement, but hadn't replaced the panel yet. Welded something quick using a 120v outlet downstairs, it tripped the kitchen GFCI and fried the coffee grinder and a fan.
If you search for people getting shocked by clothes dryers that do not have a dedicated ground you'll see plenty. Lobbying is what got us useless AFCIs and lobbying is what kept the appliance industry happy with letting people use 10-30s.
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mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
If a fridge has nothing but beer/sodas, I guess a GFCI is fine, but personally, I won't plug something that holds food into a GFCI, regardless of code.
Same goes for anything septic related
NostraThpmas
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- 37
Good point. I have one as well. It's for beer mostly. I also have a big freezer in my pantry which is not a GFCI.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
If the receptacle is within 6' of the sink, the refrigerator is required to be protected by a GFCI. Kind of stupid since 1) it's behind the fridge, and, 2) the receptacle could be 6'1" away and the side of the fridge could be 4' or less from the sink and not need the GFCI.
And there are a lot of fridges and freezers in garages and basements...
Damn it. And now here I am headed to the garage to examine that circuit... it's a freezer full of meat and frozen items.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Rip that damn gfci out and install a regular receptacle
cvairwerks
Well-known member
Wish I could, but it feeds the outside receptacle by the kitchen door. Wiring in this house is strange....The GFCI for the kitchen sink outlets also feed the outside one by the front door. The one for the small bathroom feeds the one inside by the kitchen door....
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You can't put the gfci outside?Wish I could, but it feeds the outside receptacle by the kitchen door. Wiring in this house is strange....The GFCI for the kitchen sink outlets also feed the outside one by the front door. The one for the small bathroom feeds the one inside by the kitchen door....
I'd find a way to do it... Losing a freezer full of food will ****
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
GFCI required when the receptacle is above a concrete floors (basement, garage, etc).
Metal-Marc
Well-known member
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
If it is just a straight feed from the protected side of the GFCI receptacle, some simple rewiring in the junction box will fix it.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Google says that is likely STATIC electricity !
ArcReactorKC
Well-known member
AFCI's are really good for installing into a new construction home until the final inspection and then replaced with regular or gfci breakers where applicable.
The other place they are really good for is the dump.
The other place they are really good for is the dump.
Metal-Marc
Well-known member
Shocking.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Slab houses don't need GFCI everywhere and everyplace has a concrete floor.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
Whiz: It would require tearing out numerous walls to rewire this place. Nothing was run thru the attic, with the exception of lights up there and fixtures that penetrated the ceiling. All of the wiring was run thru the walls. Goofy freakin house was designed by a bachelor that no interest in having access to the back yard. Two doors on the house exterior and both are in the front of the house.....
not sure why you can't remove the gfci inside & relocate it outside. then your outside receptacle is gfci
Says where in the NEC? By that thought most of the tract homes built should be GFCI's for all receptacles since they have concrete floor throughout the dwelling.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
What a gig for the sparky. Sell a bunch of expensive breakers, get paid to swap them back out and the use those same breakers at the next house. Get paid to swap them again. A afci inspection service.
Rinse and repeat.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
The AFCI will only trip on a series arc if it senses a 5A sustained arc.
It's snake oil of the highest order.
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Either the GFCI was bad or your appliance was bad. should've investigated this especially with a washing machine where there is very real potential for a short to ground/leakage current that could harm someone.
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
its also written by electricians that...
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
a single bond as in neutral bond or metallic pipe bond? well if they didnt have a single bond ie the neutral bond, then breakers wont trip when there is a line or ground fault. I highly doubt there are very many houses without a single bond.
as far as the ground rods go, those are for shunting lightning. has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
if the fridge or freezer is in a room or location where GFCIs are required, installing a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit will not exempt from that code requirement.