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Solar on my home?

Chaznsc

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So over the past two months we've had folks stop by pitching solar panel programs for residential. I don't completely understand the deal, but you have the system installed, a portion of which can be paid for with tax credits. Bla bla bla. I'm curious if you have seen this in your state and what you think about it? I'm concerned with what happens when I eventually need a new roof? How long the panels actually last? What if solar systems change and I'm left with a "VCR" in the age of "DVD" :)

Thoughts?
 
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straightcut

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Your questions are valid.

What type are you thinking of? Leased, owned, lease to purchase, financed or one of the 100 other plans that are out there?
 
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Chaznsc

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Probably owned, but I'm not sold on the concept. It's very early in this model as well, at least for our area.
 

firebirdparts

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Financially it is getting to where it's okay to do this. However, if there are promoters involved, I would stay away from them.

The financials depend on what your power company does. You need to investigate that yourself. The money is in selling power to the power company whenever the sun is shining. They take up the slack by sending power back to you at night. The worst good case is that they'll buy power from you and sell power to you at the same price. The best case is they buy power from you paying a premium for 'green' and maybe even a premium for "daytime'.

Panels are warranted for 25 years commonly. they are pretty busy to install. they don't keep the rain off. when you need a new roof you have to get that and then get the solar installation on top of it.
 

nes999

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One thing to keep in mind is you can currently sell your excess to the power company. However, at least by us, that is stopping in 2018.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk
 

tthornto

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The Way I got Solar worked out good for me, but is definitely not for everyone. I was planning on buying a different house anyways, and bought one that already had a paid off solar system. The Previous owner paid about $15000 for the 4KW system which was 5 years old when we bought it. Based on comparable homes in our neighborhood at the time we bought, we paid less than $2500 more than a similar house without solar would have been.

So either we got a really good deal or a Solar system adds very little value to a home. Which may be something to keep in mind if you are financing a new solar system with a home equity loan and counting on it increasing the value of your home.
 
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Chaznsc

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I'm not exactly sure how the system works. There is a third party provider involved (poly energy) but not sure what they get out of it. I was more curious as to how others were reacting to it.
 

6768rogues

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I looked into solar when I was working at a public school. After all, we were tax exempt, qualified for all kinds of grants and subsidies, and had acres of flat roofs. And I had lots of tax money to piss away if I wanted to. It had a really long payback period, during which we would have to maintain and replace roofs and maintain lots of inverter equipment. After we decided not to go solar, fracking dropped the price of natural gas and electric made from natural gas. We would almost never have broken even after that. We did not do it and I would not do it on a small scale without all that free money at home.
My brother in law paid $25K for a solar array at his house. It was supposed to be up and running last spring but they are still dicking around trying to get it to work right. $25K would pay my entire electric bill for somewhere between 10 and 15 years. He is a *******.
 
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Retlaw 66

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This site is a good place to start:
https://solarpowerrocks.com/
It gives a state-by-state breakdown of the available incentives.
Most states have under a 10 year payback period. Maybe it will work well for you, maybe it won't.

I've been researching for a while and would like to install a system on my own home.
 

kmacht

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The pay back period only works if you are able to sell the electricity back to the grid. Take away that incentive and it can take 10+ years before you even break even if you re lucky. Don't think that won't happen either. The electric companies have some very powerful lobbies and have gotten some states to pass laws preventing or severely limiting the selling of excess solar power back to the grid. If you do want to go forward with it I would stay away from the ones that are selling door to door or have displays at the local home improvement stores. They are very rarely a good long term deal for the homeowner. Always ask yourself "What are they getting out of this deal".

Keith
 

manwithtools

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Pay back varies heavily by location, it's very dependent on your local utilities energy purchase program. Be sure that you understand EXACTLY what the terms of any agreement are. Most folks statistically will move before the system is payed for, if that is you, you are only paying for someone else to benefit from the installation.

Power purchase agreements from the utilities are going down all the time, it makes sense when you think about it. Why would a utility pay more than retail for your electricity when they are only able to sell that electricity at retail to their other customers?

It might be good PR for the power company to be buying "Green Energy", but it's not necessarily good business. The more small solar installations they have to contend with, the more variable their production capacity is. If the sun is not shining, they can't depend on the small solar generation sites (homes) electricity being available to them. This makes it very hard to predict when and how much power is available to their customers.

That's not good for a utility, they prefer a very predictable production and consumption model, that's why factories are hit with demand fees when their consumption exceeds a nominal number. The local utility may not be able to respond to that increased demand with their generation infrastructure; so they then have to buy more electricity from another utility, that get's expensive.
 

apollo11

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How in the world did you come to that conclusion???
It's an informational site, not a sales pitch.
There is not a requirement to provide any personal information.... click on the ads and banners if you want, but the information provided is free.

Here's the info for solar in SC:
https://solarpowerrocks.com/south-carolina/

I searched the site.
you don't have to believe me, but it's true.
 

vavet

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Our neighbors have solar on the back of their house - it's invisible from the street, but obvious from google.
The current owners bought the house earlier this year from the original owners who lived there about 2 years. During a recent power outage, the wife was on facebook (presumably through her phone) griping about her cheap husband. She finally convinced him to buy a whole house generator. I was just surprised they couldn't generate power from the solar array. Perhaps they don't know how to use it properly.

Is this common? Is it a pitfall no one talks about?
 

manwithtools

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It's the way almost all home solar installations work. They are grid connected for a variety of reasons. No power from the utility = no power from the solar panels on the house.

True "off-grid" systems are available, but they require batteries and maintenance and even then most home arrays can't generate near enough to run your whole house - lighting and refrigerator, a TV or 2, but no HVAC or water heaters or dryers.
 

Git

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We have had a couple of threads on solar - here is the latest one:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...8&highlight=solar+system+finally+home+stretch

From my experience of having solar in California

Subsidies and Credits. There is currently a 30% Federal Tax Credit of the total cost of the system. On the next years tax returns, you apply for the credit and it reduces the amount of Federal Taxes you owe. Since most people pay taxes everytime they get a paycheck, you will probably end up with a nice check from the government. Your local city or utility company may also have some incentives

When most people talk about solar, they are basically talking about a 'grid tied' system. Excess energy you produce during the day goes through your meter and onto the grid to be used by your neighbors. Conversely at night or during inclement weather and your panels are not producing, you pull electricity from the grid. The 'grid' is basically your storage battery. The only problem is when the grid goes down, so does your solar. The Tesla Power Wall is still pretty new and still pretty expensive. I received a bid that would cost me about $10k to have a couple of Tesla batteries installed and at this point, it is not worth it to me

Sellling power back to the power company - does not really happen. What does happen is you have what is called an annual "True UP". During the course of a year, some months your panels will probably produce more power than you can use, and for that month you will receive a credit usually equal to the cost of the electricity per kWh - but this does vary from state to state. Some months you are going to use more electricity from the grid that you produce. So after 12 months, you settle up. If you used more electricity that you produce, you will have to pay your bill, If you produced more electricity than you used from the grid - they will pay you for the electricity at the WHOLESALE rate which is about $.02 kWh ( a fraction of what you pay for it)

Payback. You need to know how much you spend over the course of 12 months for electricity. Then get several estimated from contractors and take the total cost of the system and divide it by how much you spend each year on electricity. Example - $20k system minus the federal rebate or other incentives would put the actual cost of the system at $14k. $14,000 divided by an annual electric bill of $2,500 is 5.6 years would be the approximate break even point

Cost - For an apple to apple comparison, you need to find out how much a system cost per watt ($/W)

To calculate $/W, take the total out-of-pocket cost of the system that you are considering and divide it by the number of watts of capacity in the system. For example, a 5kW DC solar system has 5000 watts. If that system costs $15,000, then the cost per watt is ($15,000 / 5000W =) $3/W.

Roofing - In S Cal, most roofs are concrete tile so that is not an issue. I have heard that some solar contractors will write in their contract that if your roof does need to be replace down the road, they will pull all their equipment off, the roofers come in and do their thing and then the solar company comes back and reinstalls. So it depends on the area you live in.

VHS/DVR - valid point. Technology is always improving. Panel output has been increasing. You can buy panels that output 250w up to 400w, it all depends on how much you want to pay and how much space you have available. "Waiting" for the next big thing that comes along usually doesn't get you much
 
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Git

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I'm not exactly sure how the system works. There is a third party provider involved (poly energy) but not sure what they get out of it. I was more curious as to how others were reacting to it.

If this is their website - it looks like they are a contractor that would install and service the system

https://www.mypolyenergy.com/

For those of you who think Solar is a joke - this is the output of my system so far this year 20.77 MWh is 20,770 kWh.

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36Phaeton

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I have heard of two reasons that solar goes down with the grid.

1. If the grid is down due to downed power lines or something, an active solar array could back feed power into the dead lines, and an unsuspecting line repairman could be electrocuted.

2. Solar make DC, and uses an inverter to convert to AC @ 60 cycles. The inverter uses the pulses from the grid to time itself to 60 cycles. If the grid is down, then the cycles on your solar system would begin to drift and possibly damage your equipment.
 

manwithtools

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Lot's of location specific information in Git's response. Do your own research for your area and power provider. Southern CA is WAY different than SC.

Be CERTAIN anyone you sign a contract with is going to be in business for the next 10-15-20-30 years. When you want the guaranteed payment or warranty service, they are your only resource.
 

manwithtools

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I have heard of two reasons that solar goes down with the grid.

1. If the grid is down due to downed power lines or something, an active solar array could back feed power into the dead lines, and an unsuspecting line repairman could be electrocuted.

2. Solar make DC, and uses an inverter to convert to AC @ 60 cycles. The inverter uses the pulses from the grid to time itself to 60 cycles. If the grid is down, then the cycles on your solar system would begin to drift and possibly damage your equipment.

Close, reason number two is not about your equipment, it's so the inverters are synchronized to the grids 60hz so it does not damage their and others equipment. Inverters are perfectly capable of sustaining 60hz on their own, for them to fed power back to the grid they must be sync'd with it.
 
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Chaznsc

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I have heard of two reasons that solar goes down with the grid.

1. If the grid is down due to downed power lines or something, an active solar array could back feed power into the dead lines, and an unsuspecting line repairman could be electrocuted.

2. Solar make DC, and uses an inverter to convert to AC @ 60 cycles. The inverter uses the pulses from the grid to time itself to 60 cycles. If the grid is down, then the cycles on your solar system would begin to drift and possibly damage your equipment.

Solar does go off with the grid, it's a safety cutoff. There are developing battery systems to make the switchover, but generators are still the weapon of choice.
 

03ranger

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On your question about “what happens when I eventually need a new roof”? If you lease, you are going to have to pay to have the solar company to remove the solar panels then pay them again to reinstall the panels. If you own the panels you can hire anyone to remove the panels and reinstall them after the roof repair.

So what do you want from solar? Return on investment or wanting to “help” the environment?

Is this system a lease, lease to own or a purchase?

If you’re looking for a return on investment, run you own numbers don’t trust a salesperson to run the numbers for you . Ask questions: What is the total cost of the system before tax credits? Can you use the tax credits, another words, do you owe enough in taxes to use the tax credits? If not, the tax credit is not worth anything to you. Are there any state tax credits? After subtracting the state and federal tax credits, how long is the return on investment (ROI)? What is the cost per KWh installed?

Battery backup system, what do you want or expect to accomplish? Do you want to “off grid” or a backup system in case of power failure or if on peak hour billing, reduce your peak billing time?

Don’t look at promises made by the salesperson or the solar company. What can the solar company deliver today in the contract? The salesman is not your best friend.

Yes, I have had solar for two years and I do own my system, yes I do love it. I have 9.6 KWh system grid tied. My electric bill for 2017 was a total of $160.47 My ROI is 9.6 years.
If you want more info drop me a note.
 

lakelandcat

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In TN. we are offered a one time 10 year contrac, the power co. will lock you in at a current KW price and buy back all the excess power you produce. TN. offers no state rebate, this *****. At the end of 10 years you pay the current KW price and all the excess goes to the grid. We are one of the lowest price per kw states and also a coal state so it is cheaper to just stay on the grid. Still like the idea of going green.
 

manwithtools

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lakelandcat, your post is an example of why I encourage folks to carefully analyse the current contract offering before proceeding.

I'm in TN and installed a 48kw system on our business roof 7 years ago. Our agreement at that point in time was 11 cents per kWh premium on our production. We sell all of our production to the utility for 11 cents more than our current purchase rate. Locally we are around $0.105 so our production is sold at $0.215

We locked in for ten years and then a few months later got an additional 10 years - 20 years total at the above rate. Each year we get a check for the excess power we produce beyond our power bill. This year the system will reach the break-even point, system installation costs are now recovered and all of our power will be free plus a credit.

Granted, we were in the utility scale PV generation business at the time and had an inside understanding of the power production agreements, an agreement such as ours is no longer available. This is why I continue to stress to folks that they need to FULLY understand the agreement and what the payback time is truly going to be. Not many installations are going to payback in less than 10 years today, many may be 15 or more.

Also, we had the advantage of 8000 sg ft. of flat roof, something no homeowner will (likely) have unless they go ground mount.

As you can see, I'm not against solar, I just want folks to be fully informed before making a decision on such an investment.
 
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Lassen Forge

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I'm thinking about solar for the roof of my shop - faces south, 45 degree angle, and a lot of space up there. Need to replace the roof anyway, so We'll probably tie the 2 together somehow. Tie in batteries later, then go from there. (We're also looking at Edison batteries - a couple companies still make them, and their lifespan is WAY more than your typical lead acids...)

We already have a generator, for me it's not really -saving- money, but like the dif between renting and owning your home, I'd rather pay me for my power than our local utility... at least over the long run. (Not sure how SoCal Ed is, but up here PG&E stands for Pilfer Gouge & Extort...) The "luxury" of going off grid is nice, but not imminently necessary. The hardest part of all of this is figuring out how much solar we need... the whole DC vs AC wattage per panel thing has it all mixed up for me... like, is a 250 watt panel 250 watts at 1.2 volts, or 120 volts AC (or DC)?

SO yeah... Subscribed.
 

Git

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I am not sure where you are located - but you should check with your utility and see how much they will allow to generate (for me in S Cal, it was a maximum of 120% of my last 12 months of usage)

If you can, come up with a target number in kWh for annual usage. For example -> In 2016, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,766 kilowatthours (kWh)

Do you want to offset all your electrical usage or just part?

Here is a great calculator that will let you play around with the numbers. Enter your actual address because it will pull the weather/sunlight data from weather station in your area. (There are no strings - no one will email, call you etc)

When you get to the System Info page - along the right you will see DRAW YOU SYSTEM which will let you click on the satellite map at the corners of your roof and it will generate a number for you for the size of the array in kWDC. Plug those numbers into the System Info page - Module = Premium
Array Type = Fixed Roof Mount, System Loss = 10%, Tilt is your roof slope and azimuth is the direction your roof faces (due South is 180, etc)

It will then calculate (roughly) how many kWh per year the system would be able to generate

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/index.php

Google even has a real simple calculator
https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#...iverside, CA 92503, USA&b=350&f=buy&np=46&p=1
 

mm08822

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6768rogues

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I had to grab this part out of your post because, well, I have a brother in law, and yes, he too is a dumb ***.

I could not help myself, and laughed out loud at your post! Thanks for that!!

Jim

I like the guy, he is one of my favorite wife's side relatives. He has a lot of money and I always get a big charge out of seeing the stupid things he does with it. I tell him to his face that he is a crazy man and I love it.
In NY the utility buys excess electricity for about a third to a fourth of what it charges if I buy it from them. They do not use solar without huge subsidies and they are in the business of making and selling electricity. Why would I think I can do it profitably?
 
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lakelandcat

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lakelandcat, your post is an example of why I encourage folks to carefully analyse the current contract offering before proceeding.

I'm in TN and installed a 48kw system on our business roof 7 years ago. Our agreement at that point in time was 11 cents per kWh premium on our production. We sell all of our production to the utility for 11 cents more than our current purchase rate. Locally we are around $0.105 so our production is sold at $0.215

We locked in for ten years and then a few months later got an additional 10 years - 20 years total at the above rate. Each year we get a check for the excess power we produce beyond our power bill. This year the system will reach the break-even point, system installation costs are now recovered and all of our power will be free plus a credit.

Granted, we were in the utility scale PV generation business at the time and had an inside understanding of the power production agreements, an agreement such as ours is no longer available. This is why I continue to stress to folks that they need to FULLY understand the agreement and what the payback time is truly going to be. Not many installations are going to payback in less than 10 years today, many may be 15 or more.

Also, we had the advantage of 8000 sg ft. of flat roof, something no homeowner will (likely) have unless they go ground mount.

As you can see, I'm not against solar, I just want folks to be fully informed before making a decision on such an investment.

Good deal with the additional 10 years, 8000 SF is killer. My situation is a residential home with a west face. Not ideal. Just wish state would help.
 

Lassen Forge

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Here is a great calculator that will let you play around with the numbers. Enter your actual address because it will pull the weather/sunlight data from weather station in your area. (There are no strings - no one will email, call you etc)

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/index.php

Google even has a real simple calculator
https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#...iverside, CA 92503, USA&b=350&f=buy&np=46&p=1

Thank you! Looks like putting solar on my south facing shop roof is about 14 MW a year... that's going with the Reno average which seems more sunny than ours, but that's a bite out of PG&E's pocket! :)

BTW we're up in Viola... east of Redding, northwest of Reno.
 

djbmw

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So Not Worth It. Period.

Today, solar is only 'attractive' through the government incentives and power buy-backs. However, those plans have changed continuously and could, at any point, be removed altogether. With that said, make your purchase assuming that you are paying for it 100% on your own.

First, the solar panels arent your major expense, nor are the inverters - it's the storage cells/batteries that are costly! Factor battery replacement every 5 yrs which, for many that live in darker areas (In Canada the sunny 'days' in the winter only account for ~8 hrs/day), batteries are critical to providing power when needed.

The battery banks that I would personally need cost ~$25,000 Canadian - paying that every 5 yrs means that I will NEVER break even vs. buying from the grid.

If you have a stream or creek on your property, and 100+ feet of elevation difference, look into micro-hydro instead :)
 
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