god dammit you're right.
16.8 system max amp is 70a. i'm still screwed.
yea above 20kw is big boy **** for sure.
Solar Pricing in VA
- Thread starter Magna86
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16.8 system max amp is 70a. i'm still screwed.
yea above 20kw is big boy **** for sure.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
My math was a bit off, I was multiplying by 250 for some stupid reason...not trying to nitpick over 7agod dammit you're right.
16.8 system max amp is 70a. i'm still screwed.
yea above 20kw is big boy **** for sure.
**** in my situation that 7am might be the different i need. ill take it. plus this is GJ. nitpicking over non material differences is a way of life.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Just delete the car charger line and you are there**** im at 77a for solar. load calc existing is over 200a. best not be needing a 600a setup i hope.
How do you have 9kva of lighting?
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Hey, 7a is enough to kill a million people and is enough to run everything you really need in an outage.
But run an extra conduit anyway
its all LED down but thats done by the sq ft calc. i wonder if they've updated the calc for LED draw. the calc im using is from 2017.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Ah, that makes sense. I bet it should be a quarter of that and the real draw is even lower.
I'd be surprised if the lights are on in more than three rooms of my house at any point.
Turn the damn lights and fan off when you aren't in the room!
i have actual power draw monitoring.
this might screw me over on solar sizing. my draw jun 22 was way less than jun 21.
demand view:
the reality is its very rare for me to pop above 20kw draw. we're talking all the ACs, a dryer and the car on full charge speed.
Net metering is how the numbers work ....w/o net they fall apart. Net metering shifts all the infrastructure cost onto all the other users ... not workable long term.
Partial solar should be the goal .. flatten out the needed supply curve. Hidden subsidies are never a good idea .... we are doing the same with electric cars and not paying a road cost through gas taxes.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Thats and awfully broad statement that is not universally true. I know VA, for one, charges a much higher registration cost for fuel efficinent and EV vehicles
In some areas they have started to address this ... in VA it's only $80 a year if my memory is correct. I pay that in NJ for a reg car.
VA is also starting per mile this year .... I see problems with this. There is some basic fairness with the gas tax as it does directly correlate to use and wear on the roads.
Net metering .... no. I understand why it was done. Same with overall tax credits ... cars or solar. It a wealth transfer to those with more from those with less
When I did my system, the largest residential allowed was 25kW. I live out in the county with my own well and we heat with propane.
Net metering was still an option and I wanted to cover our current electric costs, add an electric boiler to our homes in floor heating system to cover heating costs (leaving the propane boiler in place as backup), add some mini splits for AC and still have enough left to cover an electric car or two (or plug in hybrid) to use for our local driving.
I added onto my pole barn shop to provide enough roof mount space and then designed and installed the system myself, saving about 60% on overall costs by being very thrifty in equipment and supply choices. The savings more than covered the construction costs for the shop addition because I cut the trees, milled the lumber and built the structure myself with help from good friends and family on the larger parts like pouring the slab.
This year I'll spend $4190 less on heating and electric costs due to the increased cost in propane. I've already banked enough credit with the power company to cover this winter.
We are not wealthy people and it will be a couple of years at least before a used electric run around car is in the budget. It took years to save the cash for the shop addition and the solar install but we did it without any debt and just before building material pricing went through the roof. With the current and I suspect future fuel prices, the savings will sure make a big difference in our case.
Net metering was still an option and I wanted to cover our current electric costs, add an electric boiler to our homes in floor heating system to cover heating costs (leaving the propane boiler in place as backup), add some mini splits for AC and still have enough left to cover an electric car or two (or plug in hybrid) to use for our local driving.
I added onto my pole barn shop to provide enough roof mount space and then designed and installed the system myself, saving about 60% on overall costs by being very thrifty in equipment and supply choices. The savings more than covered the construction costs for the shop addition because I cut the trees, milled the lumber and built the structure myself with help from good friends and family on the larger parts like pouring the slab.
This year I'll spend $4190 less on heating and electric costs due to the increased cost in propane. I've already banked enough credit with the power company to cover this winter.
We are not wealthy people and it will be a couple of years at least before a used electric run around car is in the budget. It took years to save the cash for the shop addition and the solar install but we did it without any debt and just before building material pricing went through the roof. With the current and I suspect future fuel prices, the savings will sure make a big difference in our case.
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In Idaho, the vehicle registration fee adds $140 per year if it's an electric vehicle and a plug in hybrid adds $75. For the driving that we do, this is far more than we would pay in road fuel taxes. For someone driving a lot of miles every year it's probably a benefit but in our case we would be contributing more to the road construction budget by driving electric than we do now.
legislature.idaho.gov
Section 49-457 – Idaho State Legislature
legislature.idaho.gov
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I am nearly certain I paid more than that to register my prius (over my flex) when we moved last year, but it's all a blur
i dunno if I agree with that. the year-long net metering is a bit farcical. the grid in fact, is NOT a battery you can fill in july and drain in february. as much as that would benefit me personally, i think the monthly net metering is probably more "honest" long-term.
for me to cover all my infrastructure costs, I have to generate all my consumption in both TOU brackets (or sell at wholesale to cover the other), and near 400kWh surplus before my bill goes to zero. seems pretty "fair" to the poco to me.
more solar everywhere would help. incentivize east facing solar to help with the duck curve problem.
I have no problem with a homeowner selling excess power back to the utility at the wholesale generation cost ... it's a forced sale to the utility and the cost of distribution back to the grid is not being paid for by the homeowner .... but, it is close. Net meter gives back all the costs .. that's not fair. There should also be a min grid fee
Tell me .... why should I .... living in an expensive town with upgraded grid get all the tax incentives to put solar on my big house and take the car credit and the people living a few towns over don't have the grid capacity nor are they part of the 1% to take advantage of all the credits ?
They pay for me?
Partial solar makes more sense ... flatten out the curve. We also optimize each system for max return ... that may not match what is needed for the grid.
We have a place in south africa and there we use direct solar hot water and the small solar is for the mini splits.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Absolutely agree. Solar and EV tax incentives help the wealthy justify toys. The people getting $7500 tax credits for buying mostly $60k+ EV's don't need it. Same goes for residential solar
That said, without wide(ish) adoption, the tech will take much longer to get cost effective, so it is not without benefit
I'm with you ... initially, government has to get some of the balls rolling in the right direction. Net metering seemed like a good idea .... but it was an additional incentive to start overbuilding systems. Instead of developing smaller system .. maybe even standardized systems .. the push was to get that net metering and the outsized return
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
why do you have 2 of the same thread?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
what load calc sheet is this?**** im at 77a for solar. load calc existing is over 200a. best not be needing a 600a setup i hope.
'if I spend capital on assets, why should I reap the benefits,' is a hell of an anticapitalist take.
net metering of power generated that you immediately consume doesn't seem unfair. net metering of power you generate in July and "consume" in February is an accounting joke that does not reflect the reality of our power grid in any way, shape or form. i think that's the real problem/difference here.
doesn't matter what town I'm in here, all our grid seems half decent.
mandating TOU with solar net metering and ditching the infinity battery (annual true-up) seems like a pretty solid way to keep revenue flowing to the POCO.
Net metering happens at the time of generation ... the excess is going back and it zeros out the full cost of supply/ delivery and distribution. The utility is giving you all the services and you just give back the power and take it all for free.
The excess power you generate should only go back at the cost that the utility company pays for wholesale power -- that's a fraction of what the power cost to the end consumer. Even that does not pay for the grid upgrades needed in many areas for the system to take your power ..... you are not paying for that either. At my somewhat rural place in PA the grid can't take any more homeowner solar ... this is not that unusual. The grid in the northeast is old
dcg9381
Well-known member
Certainly variations in different parts of the country. In my area, out of 100 homes, 1.7 of them has solar and most of those installs provide a fraction of the total power consumed by the home that they are on. Here, the only "upgrade" that is necessary is providing two-way meters for solar (we are charged for it). Existing grid works just fine when there are so few installs. It'd be different if 20 homes out 100 had solar or if our weather was more mild and electricity demands were low when the sun was overhead.
Solar here produces the most in conjunction with "peak demand" times (high HVAC use). Which is also peak cost for buying power (consumer or wholesale). Allowing more consumers to offset their own power use at peak keeps everyone's cost lower than otherwise.
Again, this works "well" until we get too many solar producers (like California). But solving a CA problem when we're not CA makes no sense to me.
And grids that can't handle solar, I agree - you shouldn't tax everyone on that upgrade...
As my utility just switched from net metering to a fraction of wholesale for power production, they shot the economics of solar in the head. And again, under certain conditions - where we have a LOT of solar installs going in, this type of move may make sense... But the guys/gals running the power company just hear the cry of "California power problems" - and we're not even close to having that much solar density.
We will likely "adapt" to the new power policy by adding a battery and controlled discharge. Basically "net meter" my own home using the battery instead of the utility grid. It'll cost another $10k... Depending on how much DIY work I do.
Solar here produces the most in conjunction with "peak demand" times (high HVAC use). Which is also peak cost for buying power (consumer or wholesale). Allowing more consumers to offset their own power use at peak keeps everyone's cost lower than otherwise.
Again, this works "well" until we get too many solar producers (like California). But solving a CA problem when we're not CA makes no sense to me.
And grids that can't handle solar, I agree - you shouldn't tax everyone on that upgrade...
As my utility just switched from net metering to a fraction of wholesale for power production, they shot the economics of solar in the head. And again, under certain conditions - where we have a LOT of solar installs going in, this type of move may make sense... But the guys/gals running the power company just hear the cry of "California power problems" - and we're not even close to having that much solar density.
We will likely "adapt" to the new power policy by adding a battery and controlled discharge. Basically "net meter" my own home using the battery instead of the utility grid. It'll cost another $10k... Depending on how much DIY work I do.
@wyliesdiesels I'm ok to split up a 320/400 service into 2 -200a panels and feed one thru an ATS in res?
my thoughts on end state with solar circuits(4-20a) . this will have me on a dead panel on the left but I can deal with partial coverage so long as 2 of the AC units are on generator.
my thoughts on end state with solar circuits(4-20a) . this will have me on a dead panel on the left but I can deal with partial coverage so long as 2 of the AC units are on generator.
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dcg9381
Well-known member
This is how I did it, 320A service, 6KW solar, ATS, 20KW generator. You've really got two options:
1) Put the ATS "downstream" of your PV array. Power goes out, your array does nothing for you.
2) There are a few inverter options that are now capable of integration with a generator... I've never installed one, but this seems to be the best of both worlds...
1) Put the ATS "downstream" of your PV array. Power goes out, your array does nothing for you.
2) There are a few inverter options that are now capable of integration with a generator... I've never installed one, but this seems to be the best of both worlds...
In Africa with the cost of solar dropping the safari camps can now provide full solar most of the time .. they still have back up as many of the camps are luxury ... but -- it's needed less and less. Especially with battery storage -- its' been cool to see the development over the 25 years we have been coming.
Direct solar for hot water is a given --- but when you have to pay for all the cost -- partial is the norm. They also have panels on the flat roof areas that will pivot depending on the time of year. I do direct DHW and there is an insulted tank for wintertime -- it will not do full heating but it will give the place a free hit of heat when needed. I don't have one but they make integrated small size solar/ minisplits -- since the motors are DC ... it's direct.
Direct solar for hot water is a given --- but when you have to pay for all the cost -- partial is the norm. They also have panels on the flat roof areas that will pivot depending on the time of year. I do direct DHW and there is an insulted tank for wintertime -- it will not do full heating but it will give the place a free hit of heat when needed. I don't have one but they make integrated small size solar/ minisplits -- since the motors are DC ... it's direct.
the motors aren't really DC, just PM, they're inverter run. but the inverter has a DC bus so you can tie in there. you can actually tie solar into a regular AC inverter's DC bus if you want.
here's a nutter who did it:
dcg9381
Well-known member
I installed thermosyphon solar HW on my last house. They seem to be very common outside the USA, but in the US, it was very hard to find a unit. It worked absolutely flawlessly. Basically had an 80 gallon tank on top with a "back up" element that I could turn on. Ethylene glycol for heat transfer, so you don't have to worry about freezing lines.
We could basically go for 3 days without sun (overcast) before we had to turn on aux electric heat.
No pumps to fail.
Only downside was having to design for 80 gallons * 8 lbs/gallon permanently mounted to the roof deck. As our Texas roofs usually don't last 20 years (hail) - it'd have to be pulled off via crane to replace a roof.
Did I get my moneys worth over 10 years? I'm not sure... Solar rebates did apply though..
I don't know the inner workings ... I was told they were DC motors. they only sell them in a couple small sizes.
All over Africa .. sort of a given when building a house. They have a couple different types -- evacuated tubes are common as they can still produce in overcast weather. You buy based on location and need ... mine is on the ground. Some use the insulated tank at the unit -- others have secondary storage tanks to hold a days worth of hot water. When the sun is out they can make large amounts of hot water -- way more than needed.I installed thermosyphon solar HW on my last house. They seem to be very common outside the USA, but in the US, it was very hard to find a unit. It worked absolutely flawlessly. Basically had an 80 gallon tank on top with a "back up" element that I could turn on. Ethylene glycol for heat transfer, so you don't have to worry about freezing lines.
We could basically go for 3 days without sun (overcast) before we had to turn on aux electric heat.
No pumps to fail.
Only downside was having to design for 80 gallons * 8 lbs/gallon permanently mounted to the roof deck. As our Texas roofs usually don't last 20 years (hail) - it'd have to be pulled off via crane to replace a roof.
Did I get my moneys worth over 10 years? I'm not sure... Solar rebates did apply though..
Like anything else one can go crazy -- some do. Things are much cheaper there --- plus there are standard items available for the systems. The storage tanks are cement lined with foam insulation -- not only do they hold around 100 gallons of water .... the thermal mass of the tank itself will temper the incoming water.
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