solar

[Git]

So right now as I type this, I am over generating and pushing electricity to the grid. I am pretty sure it is going directly to my next door neighbors who do not have solar. Is it really fair to give me credit at the wholesale rate (~4¢) and turn around and charge them the going rate ~33¢?

And, don't you think they should have figured out the storage problem before they started ramming these green energy policies down oure throats, cutting nuclear power production as well as natural gas & coal?

 

[u3b3rg33k]

So right now as I type this, I am over generating and pushing electricity to the grid. I am pretty sure it is going directly to my next door neighbors who do not have solar. Is it really fair to give me credit at the wholesale rate (~4¢) and turn around and charge them the going rate ~33¢?

And, don't you think they should have figured out the storage problem before they started ramming these green energy policies down oure throats, cutting nuclear power production as well as natural gas & coal?

I do think it IS fair to pay a price that factors in some kind of O&M. what do power plants ACTUALLY get? that I don't know. but I'm sure they get a sweeter deal than homeowners do.

 

[FredWanaker]

hydrogen generation will solve a lot. It is stored power, and can be burned in a mechanical process/engine, in a burner, or directly in a fuel cell. You make and store hydrogen during the day with the electric surplus and then burn it at night to power the grid. Cars can run on it. The issue is too many humans right now for it to work. It would be a massive undertaking to support 3.2 billion people with it.

 

[FredWanaker]

If your POC can buy it somewhere else wholesale, or make it themselves cheaper, then that establishes the market price for your surplus.

The wealthy place their money into trusts that last generations. The expect a return on their investment, just like you do. When they invest in Utility companies, generators in dams, power plants etc., they don't want anyone messing with that return on investment, or they won't invest. That is why when PGE causes a fire the user of the power pays for the damages. If the investor got burned they would stop investing in power utilities. It is a huge paradox that the western world has yet to find a solution to. The imbalance in wealth is what drives these things.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

hydrogen generation will solve a lot. It is stored power, and can be burned in a mechanical process/engine, in a burner, or directly in a fuel cell. You make and store hydrogen during the day with the electric surplus and then burn it at night to power the grid. Cars can run on it. The issue is too many humans right now for it to work. It would be a massive undertaking to support 3.2 billion people with it.

I think hydrogen is a red herring. the efficiencies are so bad it comes out to $8-9 /gallon gasoline equivalent for production, and then you have relatively low efficiencies on the consumption side as well.
it might make sense as a place to put overproduction, but that would require an absolutely massive H2 infrastructure (much larger than one that runs 24/7) to take advantage of otherwise curtailable production. there's a company out there that claims to be able to carbon capture CO2 and turn it into fuel. If I was going to buy an IPO, i'd buy that before I bought H2 production stock.

 

[FredWanaker]

the capture CO2 and turn it into ethanol using a catalyst and a little power. Swiss have been at it since about 2015 or so.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

now that sounds good. you can drink it, or put it in your gas tank. Win/Win.

 

[twig2121]

I'm in PA where we have a fair net metering situation. I installed an 11kw system 6 years ago and it dropped our $2,000/yr electric bill to zero - in fact we got a small check from the power company each year. We still have to pay $16/mo to be grid connected, but that's OK since we only produce power when the sun's shining and pull power otherwise. No batteries here (yet). We're on track for full payback within 10yrs (under 4 years to go). There are naysayers - some are so stubborn they won't believe any evidence, but it's good to do your homework as each state has different laws and even power company has different policies...and some solar installer pricing is inflated and may not make fiscal sense. It's sad how some states have become solar unfriendly due to utility company lobbying. Since our system has been performing well, we just got another array as we've added some load this year with a pool, EV and electric zeroturn.

It's neat to be a power generator and watch how much power the sun can generate quietly and without any real work on my part. We produce 22,000 watts between both arrays at peak sun

I also think there's a national security advantage to decentralizing our power grid

Our house now has zero utility bills with solar - our heat, water, etc is all on premise and powered by solar. I suspect having a self-funded house will be a big selling point whenever we move. Plus, you can't even see the panels from the road when you pull into the house, so most folks are surprised when I tell them we have solar.

Feel free to msg me if you have any more questions

 

[FredWanaker]

I appreciate that you are generating power but each situation is different. Here because of the net metering being different, and the power costs being different, the payback is designed to be 20 years. It is 6:36 am right now and we are doing laundry with electric dryer. It is dark outside. The cost of power right now is very inexpensive and we are up. The biggest user of power here is in summer when we use AC and it is 100+ outside each day. The house is well insulated so we don't use much AC until about 4 - 5 pm at which time the sun starts getting too low on the horizon to produce power, and that is when the bill goes to 30 cents kWh. During the day when we would have excess power they pay 7.4 cents kWh for it. Not to be political but the same people who are bringing you $6 - $7 gas a gallon, and who want it to go up to $12 a gallon are running the net metering here. It isn't about national security. It is about the people who have control of the electricity in this country gouging everyone they can.

 

[Git]

I'm in PA where we have a fair net metering situation.

Emphasis on 'fair net metering'. Yes it does work, saving people money and the environment - But, when these Investor Owned Utilities get greedy and want to change net metering to their benefit or eliminate it altogether than your looking at a very long pay back - 11 to 20 years in some cases.

 

[walrus]

So far Maine is continuing with Net Metering, I bank for a year, after that whatever is leftover goes to power company. So you build to just barely make enough for your needs and no more.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I appreciate that you are generating power but each situation is different. Here because of the net metering being different, and the power costs being different, the payback is designed to be 20 years. It is 6:36 am right now and we are doing laundry with electric dryer. It is dark outside. The cost of power right now is very inexpensive and we are up. The biggest user of power here is in summer when we use AC and it is 100+ outside each day. The house is well insulated so we don't use much AC until about 4 - 5 pm at which time the sun starts getting too low on the horizon to produce power, and that is when the bill goes to 30 cents kWh. During the day when we would have excess power they pay 7.4 cents kWh for it.

have you tried time-shifting your AC a bit earlier? pre-cool the house a bit while the solar is producing? or is it already cranking away then? from a grid perspective, it's "best" to actually self-consume your generation, not generate/consume at different times. it's a shame that ice-bear company flopped. that would be the perfect tool for time-shifting compressor operation. not sure what they did wrong.

So far Maine is continuing with Net Metering, I bank for a year, after that whatever is leftover goes to power company. So you build to just barely make enough for your needs and no more.

any overproduction is "gifted" to the POCO?

 

[walrus]

have you tried time-shifting your AC a bit earlier? pre-cool the house a bit while the solar is producing? or is it already cranking away then? from a grid perspective, it's "best" to actually self-consume your generation, not generate/consume at different times. it's a shame that ice-bear company flopped. that would be the perfect tool for time-shifting compressor operation. not sure what they did wrong.


any overproduction is "gifted" to the POCO?

Yes

 

[u3b3rg33k]

That's lame. I'd host an EV charging party or something to eat up the delta.

 

[ybnormal]

Here, it's not lobbying. It's not a democracy. We have a co-op and our "board" decided to discourage solar so we wouldn't be like "California". We now get 50% of the wholesale rate for over-production. I blame me for not paying attention or attending meetings where I had an opportunity to speak up.

We "net meter" monthly though (not yearly) - so that still makes it work for me as we under-produce.

Basically, it's their infrastructure, it's their rules. I agree that the "right" thing to do is pay a wholesale rate if they can store or sell the power that PV is producing at the time. It's a little different if the demand at the time doesn't allow them to sell the power.

Mass storage of power will solve a lot of these issues.

at least Bennie Fuelberg is no longer in charge........

 

[FredWanaker]

great, get the house down to 65F in summer during the day using solar so it is 75F by morning to start over. Hand a personally engraved parka to everyone with the savings. I don't buy anything that has a 20 year payback.

As indicated in the initial post, Annual electric cost was $1,422.19. We used 9026 kWh during the whole year. The 3 hottest months used over 1/3 of that total. I'd guess that AC is probably 1/2 of the annual total and most of that is at night. We had so many fires the last few years with the new state environmental let it burn policy that we could not run the whole house fan at night, which is what we used to do to cut AC costs.

 

[Git]

"In 2020, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,715 kWh"

There you have it. Fred lives in California where there is plenty of sun but 'other factors' do not make it a good investment. He basically is the average user

And don't forget what Musk said - electrical production needs to double to be able to transition to EV's

 

[83VillageRepair]

I am really enjoying this thread. I wish the industry would settle upon standard terminology so that everyone is speaking the same language.

Net Metering: True net metering means bi-directional power flow with no limits with the same price being paid from and to the consumer.
This is the dream of every solar vendor.

Net metering with a cap: Same as above except the bank only carries on for a month or a year and then is zeroed out.
I think this is what many people have. We have this in Texas with some power companies paying nothing for overproduction and some paying around 4 cents for the excess before the zeroing each month.

Avoided cost: Power to the consumer is provided at retail and excess generation is paid to the consumer at the same rate as from bulk generation, typically 3 or 4 cents per kwh. This is the dream of every power company.

My other wish is that someone would step in and start certifying and regulating solar installers. I have seen installed costs of up to $20 a watt before the predatory financing and lots of installs that are shoddy and unsafe.

I have been involved in renewables in one form or another in multiple states and countries. If you can self perform the install it almost always makes sense no matter what the price of power or the buyback structure. When I was in American Samoa the price of power was around 40 cents and the sun was high in the sky for 12hours a day. Solar was a no-brainer no matter what the installed cost.

But if you are going to pay someone else to install do the math yourself. Most solar salesman were used car salesman just the other day, they lie, either knowingly or unknowingly. They always want to vastly oversize your system because that is how they make their money. Unless you are being paid retail it makes absolutely zero sense to size your system to slightly over 100% of your highest month. You are not even breaking even in the long term on being paid 3 cents for your overage so right size the system.

Make sure that their installers are licensed electricians so that you can go after their license with the AHJ if they do shoddy work. Most solar installers were cable TV installers just yesterday.

I hope this is helpful to someone. I am not an expert but have played with this stuff a lot. If anyone sees a mistake please let me know and I will fix it.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I am really enjoying this thread. I wish the industry would settle upon standard terminology so that everyone is speaking the same language.

Net Metering: True net metering means bi-directional power flow with no limits with the same price being paid from and to the consumer.
This is the dream of every solar vendor.

Net metering with a cap: Same as above except the bank only carries on for a month or a year and then is zeroed out.
I think this is what many people have. We have this in Texas with some power companies paying nothing for overproduction and some paying around 4 cents for the excess before the zeroing each month.

Avoided cost: Power to the consumer is provided at retail and excess generation is paid to the consumer at the same rate as from bulk generation, typically 3 or 4 cents per kwh. This is the dream of every power company.

I'll agree with that.

with your definition of net metering, it's a bit of a too good to be true thing, and does not incentivize good behavior.

IMNSHO, residential flat rate power pricing is bad for the grid. it means you have absolutely no reason to care when or how much power you use, because what's the incentive? the moral high ground?

everyone should be on some sort of TOU plan, so that your consumption is tied somewhat closely to the true cost of power. THIS SHOULD ALSO APPLY to generation. if solar is pushing tons of cheap power onto the grid, the price should go DOWN, encouraging that energy to be consumed. as far as I can tell this does not happen.



my POCO offers net metering with a cap. with TOU, your generation is credited at the retail rate during the TOU window it was generated. that means during peak pricing, it's worth $0.19/kWh. off peak it's worth $0.089/kWh.
Now for the avoided cost part: if you generate more than you consume, it's credited to you at $0.05/kWh. that can build up to $100, at which point they cut you a check.

this is fine I guess. now if I were to get batteries, I should be allowed to sell as though I were a peaker plant, at whatever inflated rates they make. I think Tesla is pursuing this with their VPP/autobidder systems, but as far as I know, there's no benefit to the home owner.

 

[dcg9381]

I were to get batteries, I should be allowed to sell as though I were a peaker plant, at whatever inflated rates they make. I think Tesla is pursuing this with their VPP/autobidder systems, but as far as I know, there's no benefit to the home owner.

I haven't installed Tesla, but the intelligence in their systems is pretty remarkable. I "assume" that you can have batteries charge (PV or grid) off peak and have them discharge at peak. The economics get complicated, depending on how you are net metered (or if you are net metered) and your typical power use patterns become part of that model.... To model cost savings, I assume you'd need months of data to do it accurately.

 

[83VillageRepair]

I'll agree with that.

with your definition of net metering, it's a bit of a too good to be true thing, and does not incentivize good behavior.

IMNSHO, residential flat rate power pricing is bad for the grid. it means you have absolutely no reason to care when or how much power you use, because what's the incentive? the moral high ground?

everyone should be on some sort of TOU plan, so that your consumption is tied somewhat closely to the true cost of power. THIS SHOULD ALSO APPLY to generation. if solar is pushing tons of cheap power onto the grid, the price should go DOWN, encouraging that energy to be consumed. as far as I can tell this does not happen.



my POCO offers net metering with a cap. with TOU, your generation is credited at the retail rate during the TOU window it was generated. that means during peak pricing, it's worth $0.19/kWh. off peak it's worth $0.089/kWh.
Now for the avoided cost part: if you generate more than you consume, it's credited to you at $0.05/kWh. that can build up to $100, at which point they cut you a check.

this is fine I guess. now if I were to get batteries, I should be allowed to sell as though I were a peaker plant, at whatever inflated rates they make. I think Tesla is pursuing this with their VPP/autobidder systems, but as far as I know, there's no benefit to the home owner.

I think TOU rates are coming to the US in general.

 

[FredWanaker]

they are. It is a way to cut down on fossil fuel use because the power plants don't need to make as much electricity. You'll hate it when it happens to you.

 

[jkeyser14]

I'll agree with that.

with your definition of net metering, it's a bit of a too good to be true thing, and does not incentivize good behavior.

IMNSHO, residential flat rate power pricing is bad for the grid. it means you have absolutely no reason to care when or how much power you use, because what's the incentive? the moral high ground?

everyone should be on some sort of TOU plan, so that your consumption is tied somewhat closely to the true cost of power. THIS SHOULD ALSO APPLY to generation. if solar is pushing tons of cheap power onto the grid, the price should go DOWN, encouraging that energy to be consumed. as far as I can tell this does not happen.



my POCO offers net metering with a cap. with TOU, your generation is credited at the retail rate during the TOU window it was generated. that means during peak pricing, it's worth $0.19/kWh. off peak it's worth $0.089/kWh.
Now for the avoided cost part: if you generate more than you consume, it's credited to you at $0.05/kWh. that can build up to $100, at which point they cut you a check.

this is fine I guess. now if I were to get batteries, I should be allowed to sell as though I were a peaker plant, at whatever inflated rates they make. I think Tesla is pursuing this with their VPP/autobidder systems, but as far as I know, there's no benefit to the home owner.

Why should the power company decide when it thinks it is best for consumers to use electricity? Screw that. Just build a good sized peaker power plant or use other grid storage. People don't want corporations controlling when they do laundry or take showers.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Why should the power company decide when it thinks it is best for consumers to use electricity? Screw that. Just build a good sized peaker power plant or use other grid storage. People don't want corporations controlling when they do laundry or take showers.

that's the whole point. peaker plants cost way more to run than baseload plants. it's economics, not spite. well, maybe it's spite if your power company is PG&E. otherwise power costs are not magically flat.

also, what "other grid storage?"

the two big power plants near me got converted from coal to gas a few years back, and both of them cogen steam. I don't know if either one has any peaking capability. I have seen peaker plants, they look something like this:




they have a much lower thermal efficiency, and are generally designed to be up and running in 15 minutes.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

here's a neat document:

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/74426.pdf

all of these have different cost models.

 

[Sumboodie]

So far Maine is continuing with Net Metering, I bank for a year, after that whatever is leftover goes to power company. So you build to just barely make enough for your needs and no more.

That's how it WAS here, but it's monthly now.

 

[FredWanaker]

Time of Day pricing is a California invention, won't bring up which political party. Enjoy it when it gets to you. Our consumption of power actually went up when we went to TOD pricing - you have to super cool your house during the day to make it thru the hottest part of those 105+ days, and the most expensive hours to use power. We used to just put it on 74F when at home, and then 85F when we were at work, back to 74F an hour before we got home. Now the cooling program looks like a roller coaster trying to anticipate the pricing and heat soak. We do plan to sell and leave soon though. I hear Russia wants Alaska and N. Calif back or they will use nuclear weapons to neuter the place. Interesting threat.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

You could try over-sizing your AC? seems to work for all the GJers who put 100k unit heaters in their 400sqft garages.

they are. It is a way to cut down on fossil fuel use because the power plants don't need to make as much electricity. You'll hate it when it happens to you.

we have it here as an option. requirement for anyone using 45MWh/yr+. I opted into it. I use MORE power with it than I did before and I pay less now than I did then. probably because we don't have an IOU telling us we have to put money in shareholder pockets.

 

[83VillageRepair]

You could try over-sizing your AC? seems to work for all the GJers who put 100k unit heaters in their 400sqft garages.

we have it here as an option. requirement for anyone using 45MWh/yr+. I opted into it. I use MORE power with it than I did before and I pay less now than I did then. probably because we don't have an IOU telling us we have to put money in shareholder pockets.

Yes but the power you are using during low price hours comes mostly for the most efficient (lowest cost) base load generation sources. The power you use during the highest price times comes mostly from less efficient natural gas and diesel peakers.

 

[walrus]

That's how it WAS here, but it's monthly now.

That doesn't work well here in Maine or in AK

 

[u3b3rg33k]

So far Maine is continuing with Net Metering, I bank for a year, after that whatever is leftover goes to power company. So you build to just barely make enough for your needs and no more.

1 year is convenient for accounting, but it doesn't reflect the realities of the grid. I have mixed feelings on it.

That's how it WAS here, but it's monthly now.

gifting free power to the POCO is a bad economic model IMHO. why should they get something for nothing.

That doesn't work well here in Maine or in AK

I also think the "infinite power banking" is unrealistic. how is the power company supposed to "give that back" for 6mo straight?

if you want my opinion (and you're getting it, because it's a forum, you're welcome!), the economic model should reflect reality with respect to pricing. At a minimum, it should at least reflect desired behaviors. incentivize people to do what is good for the grid, and pay a fair rate.

an example:
power you generate and then immediately self consume should be credited directly against your consumption and all related charges.
power you over-generate during a peak window should be at least credited at peak rates, minus any transmission charges.
power you generate at maximum off peak is pretty worthless, and should be treated as such

IF YOU HAVE BATTERIES:
you should be able to load shave yourself at peak prices
you should be able to sell on a peaker schedule AT PEAKER PRICES.
you should be able to recharge FOR SALE USE at baseload times/prices if you want to. this trades peak load for baseload which is "good" from a grid perspective.

 

[HamAndEggs]

Pretty good month, $88 back from the utility, solar loan is $120/mo

So, I paid $32 for 1700kwh which works out as 1.8c/kwh

 

[nadogail]

We are being held by the short and curly hairs. As soon as we adapt so that we can feel some comfort, the lobbyists will lobby for a rule change.

If the utilities don't like the game they will send their hired guns out to get it changed.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

So right now as I type this, I am over generating and pushing electricity to the grid. I am pretty sure it is going directly to my next door neighbors who do not have solar. Is it really fair to give me credit at the wholesale rate (~4¢) and turn around and charge them the going rate ~33¢?

And, don't you think they should have figured out the storage problem before they started ramming these green energy policies down oure throats, cutting nuclear power production as well as natural gas & coal?

You make a good point. I go back on forth on the buy retail and sell wholesale aspect of solar. Buried in the retail price of electricity is the cost to generate, cost to distribute, overhead and profit. But shouldn't you as a producer of electricity be entitled to a return on your investment to generate? overhead? Profit? I don't think you/we should be entitled to the get paid for the cost to distribute, that should go to the POCO.

 

[HamAndEggs]

They can pay us less if they want, but when ERCOT decides to ask us to conserve, I also reserve the right to "conserve" that nice 12kw flow going back to the grid. Its a 2 way street, and I have all the power I need, and they don't

We really all need to form a big solar union and hold their feet the fire. We can just arrange random times during peak demand to collectively cut solar backfeeding. If they want to pay pennies on the dollar, they can't get reliable power!

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

So ... it sounds like with the local municipal utility selling me power for $0.095/KwHr and currentlying will to buy my solar generated power at the same price I should not go solar. Home is almost all electric with GWHP, desuperheater for hot water and NG for some hot water, the dryer, and the stove/oven. 2,200 ranch with long, unobstructed southern exposure. House needs to roof.

 

[HamAndEggs]

So ... it sounds like with the local municipal utility selling me power for $0.095/KwHr and currentlying will to buy my solar generated power at the same price I should not go solar. Home is almost all electric with GWHP, desuperheater for hot water and NG for some hot water, the dryer, and the stove/oven. 2,200 ranch with long, unobstructed southern exposure. House needs to roof.

If its 1:1 I don't see a reason NOT to go solar. At least for me, it just about cut the price of my energy in half. Its on a long 25 year loan too at 0.5%, so with inflation the way it is, its going to cost even less!

I used to get completely 1:1, but I just signed a 3 year contract where its the same minus the transmission fees. I'll just shift more usage to the day to use that "cheaper" power

 

[dcg9381]

So ... it sounds like with the local municipal utility selling me power for $0.095/KwHr and currentlying will to buy my solar generated power at the same price I should not go solar. Home is almost all electric with GWHP, desuperheater for hot water and NG for some hot water, the dryer, and the stove/oven. 2,200 ranch with long, unobstructed southern exposure. House needs to roof.

When they will either net meter your power OR if they will pay you for power generated at a retail rate, that's when you DO go solar.

 

[dcg9381]

We really all need to form a big solar union and hold their feet the fire. We can just arrange random times during peak demand to collectively cut solar backfeeding. If they want to pay pennies on the dollar, they can't get reliable power!

I wonder what demand residential generation takes off the grid in totality? Certainly more in CA than in my state. The statistics within my co-op are that only 1.7% of residential customers have solar. I'm all for unionizing, but here, doesn't sound like they'll notice much.

 

[HamAndEggs]

I wonder what demand residential generation takes off the grid in totality? Certainly more in CA than in my state. The statistics within my co-op are that only 1.7% of residential customers have solar. I'm all for unionizing, but here, doesn't sound like they'll notice much.

Not much I don't think, however I'm sure that number will grow. Even if it does nothing, it will make me feel like I'm sticking to the man at least