Solder or Crimp?

[2mJps]

I use both. If it is a crimp i will fill it with silicone before pushing the wire in.

 

[fflintstone]

grandpa taught me to solder at 10. I had bad luck with crimps and went back to solder and have had no problems.

 

[retrobuilder]

Depends. my experience has been that crimp for large automotive ground and battery cables can be intermittent. Crimp can work as long as you have commercial crimping machines.

Splices for speakers and lighting can be okay. connection to the driver is best soldered. tooo many erratic speaker connections in my past to speaker posts. Just do not attempt in cold weather as you literally end up with cold solder joints.

Best small wire 18-22 awg connection, if soldering cannot be done is use of IDC (insulation displacement). Used in marine market successfully.

Soldering needs good electronic grade tin-lead solder and proper heating tips/tools.

 

[volaredon]

I solder and shrink wrap. After doing what seems like everyones car stereo around here. they always ask why it takes a while longer than Best buy. I tell them because I solder and shrink wrap and they get it. Never had an issue with the installs.

agree X 1000!

 

[richfinn]

I use both. If it is a crimp i will fill it with silicone before pushing the wire in.

Whoa, dont put silicone sealer anywhere near electrical connectors the acids in the sealant will wick down the wire and corrode it.

 

[richfinn]

The trouble with solder is that its brittle, and when you solder a splice you end up with a longer brittle connection as opposed to a quality micro-crimp and heat shrink tube.

It wont really matter inside a vehicle on a long run say under a carpet, but in engine bays with wires going out to components and the weight of the loom unsupported in some situations you end up with flex/vibration which can cause issues.

 

[CWP1616L]

I prefer non-insulated connectors with heat shrink.

The crimpers I use are Ideal 30-429.

 

[bobcatdan]

I own a soldering gun, I know, I seen me buy it. Other then when I learn how to solder 15 or so years ago, I havn't touch one since.

 

[Fastbird]

I crimp only using nice Waytek ratcheting crimpers and the proper crimping jaws for the proper connector. Heat-shrink where necessary if I'm not using something like a sealed Weatherpack or Metripack connector.

 

[richfinn]

http://www.aeromotive.us/training.html

channel 8

 

[david594]

My unprofessional opinion. But for my automotive stuff I solder if its wire to wire, and I crimp if its wire to terminal. I use an AMP ratcheting crimper and it is easily one of the best purchases and most expensive tool purchases I've made.

For large gauge wiring (4ga for the stereo) I usually end up crimping and then soldering the wire to the terminals.

 

[Roots]

Correct terminals & crimp tools aka T&B/Sta-Kon w/rare exceptions.

 

[nanofrog]

I crimp only using nice Waytek ratcheting crimpers and the proper crimping jaws for the proper connector. Heat-shrink where necessary if I'm not using something like a sealed Weatherpack or Metripack connector.

Which ones?

 

[wafrederick]

If out in the elements,solder them and then heat shrink them.Less chance of them corroding and doing it all over again.GM fuel pumps come with an update plug in,the Delphis and AC Delcos up to 2001.Come with crimp on connectors with heat shrink on them.

 

[PrecisionTools]

Always a bit controversial this issue. In my younger days I was a solder fan...then I went and worked on equipment that had to be reliable, that had to last and was in harsh environments - communications equipment in the mining industry.

If I was ever called out for equipment failure, 90% of the time it would be cabling issues and 90% of that would be soldered connectors.

An old timer explained it to me once; think of an axle in a differential. Where do they break the most? Not in the middle even though that may be the weakest point in terms of the strength of the steel in the axle. They nearly always break at the ends where they are hardened for a bearing at one end and/or for a spline at the other. Where the points meet where you have a soft, flexible steel and a hard, brittle steel is where most of the fatigue will accumulate if under stress.

Now go to your soldered wire & terminal. Nice soft, flexible copper which stops abruptly at a much harder copper/solder infused terminal. If there is any vibration or thermal cycling of the copper due to high currents, that cable termination point is going to take most of the stress and therefore fatigue the copper at the point where the solder stopped wicking up the copper cable strands.

In my experience, even the crappy plastic coated terminals shown elsewhere in this thread, will outperform the best soldered terminal if crimped with a quality ratchet crimper. These are pretty extreme conditions and the reliability of the crimp connection goes down fast if the crimper, the cable & the terminal are not matched correctly.

Not everyone can be bothered with this so I'd suggest if your stuck on soldered at least use a good, stiff (like the internally infused resin types) heat-shrink to support the connection and try and get some of the stress away from the one point in the cable.

 

[skruft]

Normally I crimp, with a good tool. I think that's typical except that some folks don't have good tools. It does not have to be a ratchet type but I normally use one.

In most places in a car (or even in a boat) where water does not splash or come near, I don't think the type of insulation makes any difference so long as the crimp is proper. This actually surprised me, but that's my experience. If it may get wet, another story.

It is very important to support the wire where it enters the terminal, one way or another, except with heavy cables. Unsupported wires going into uninsulated terminals break if there is motion.

In some non-automotive applications I solder. I have the odd hobby of electric clock collecting, where original connections were soldered, and when you rewire, the spaces are often so small that there is no room for a connector.

 

[DrkMtnDew]

I solder anything that is going to need serious long term connection and anything that is in a space that allows enough room to solder. if i do use a crimp connector it is the type that has built in heat shrink and solder. they are more expensive but so is chasing down a problem that leads back to a bad connector.

 

[Krokodil]

Since I got a proper crimper, I prefer using it. However bad crimpers really make bad joints. I rarely solder any more.

 

[DrkMtnDew]

Since I got a proper crimper, I prefer using it. However bad crimpers really make bad joints. I rarely solder any more.

Yes, a good crimper is essential. I got a pair of the SO PWCS7 Cutter/Stripper/Crimper a while ago and they are hands down my favorite. I literally use them things every single day. sometimes for the entire day, depending on the job.

 

[racingtadpole]

Please explain.

Dont think I need to, everyone has done a stirling job of summing up my thoughts on it and then some. I will point out that I prefer crimping over soldering even though I have numerous pieces of paper that say I can solder to a higher standard than your average baboon.

Besides, why would you want to lay under a dashboard with your feet on the seat headrest pouring molten tin and lead on your face?

 

[up_in_the_air]

I do both, depends on situation, there are a few MIL-STD and AN electrical connectors used on aircraft, defence force etc that are soldered.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I ratchett crimp using Duocrimp 89L's (UK) and the approp dies and then heat shrink and colour code the shrink. if the cable/wire is a decent gauge then I print out connection details on a dymo label printer, tack it on and then use clear heat shrink to protect it

I'll solder if necessary, but prefer crimping because I'm **** at soldering

I also colour code the conduit so that the trace identifies if its feeding off the loom. eg if the high beam trace is red/white then I heat shrink red/white as part of the loom ident.

makes it easier for me anyway

 

[wvrrcarknocker]

Yes, a good crimper is essential. I got a pair of the SO PWCS7 Cutter/Stripper/Crimper a while ago and they are hands down my favorite. I literally use them things every single day. sometimes for the entire day, depending on the job.

^This. I love the Snap On PWCS7 for AWG 14-22, use it everyday. I work for a service truck upfitter so a lot of in cab/under dash/engine bay close quarters work, and they make it a breeze. All we use is insulated crimps with 3M heat shrink tubing on both wire to wire and terminals. We only use solder where necessary or customer requested, and thats how i'd do things if it were my stuff I was working on.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Anything automotive (or in my boat) gets crimped and heat shrink tubing. The flux and/or rosin used with the solder is very corrosive. The heat weakens the integrity of plastic insulation. And the soldered joint is prone to breaking via vibration because it is brittle.

Indoors with certain audio components and circuit repairs, I'll solder.

 

[racingtadpole]

if the cable/wire is a decent gauge then I print out connection details on a dymo label printer, tack it on and then use clear heat shrink to protect it

I'll solder if necessary, but prefer crimping because I'm **** at soldering

Both of those are traits of some guys I work with. Ex Telepower by any chance?

 

[cglasgow]

Whoa, dont put silicone sealer anywhere near electrical connectors the acids in the sealant will wick down the wire and corrode it.

I'm sure he meant silicone grease.

 

[0.511MeV]

I'm still surprised that anyone still debates this topic.

I spent a lot of time at the bench doing solder repairs on biomedical equipment when I was working my way through my undergraduate degree. I would rate myself as a very good solder tech... not excellent, I've seen those techs work and it is something else. Nevertheless, I've got LOTS of time and experience.

I use ratchet crimpers and proper terminals whenever possible because the quality is FAR FAR FAR FAR superior than anything I can do with soldering. When you bring into it that the repairs are being made in the field, where I can't use proper soldering tools easily, things aren't spotlessly clean, and I'm working in strange positions, crimps win hands down every time.

 

[firebox40dash5]

Crimp and heatshrink pretty much everything for me. I won't even leave the chintzy plastic "insulator" on terminals unless it's just a small ground wire for a component. The only thing I'd bother soldering, though, is stuff that's too small for crimps, or too big to rely on glue-filled heatshrink sealing it... big lugs I crimp, torch, fill with solder, then heatshrink.

Vampire taps, wire nuts, and electrical tape make me want to kill cute little bunnies.

I just wired a new trailer light adapter on my car a few days ago... stupid PO did everything with vampire taps, and to top it off put them about 1/4" from the car-side plug. Grumble grumble hack job ***** grumble.

 

[Jeeper]

I have converted to crimp. Here is a thread on it a year back in case anyone wants to do more reading:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123007

 

[flippin]

Unlike the typical Chevy vs Ford debate, there is some reasonably sound science to support crimping versus soldering. Like so many of you, I am the consummate perfectionist which when coupled with my profession as a scientist is generally a recipe for way too much analysis. My experience is in the marine industry where moisture and corrosion is generally higher than in the automotive arena. However living in Canada where salt covered roads is part of our life for at least 4 months of the year, automotive electrical connections can certainly be subjected to an equal amount of abuse.

Having just joined GJ and seeing 2 "crimp vs solder" debates in less than a month, there is no need for me to revisit so many of the accurate comments shared thus far. As someone who was religious at soldering all of my marine electrical connectors, a tremendous amount of convincing detail and data was required for me to change "my ways". Conversely, very little coaxing was required for me to appreciate the benefits of a soldered joint when being compared to the crimped connection born from the awful HF style tinned aluminum connectors and $5 dimple crimping tools. From this, my practice of soldering connections was started.

In electronics, we were educated to neutralize all soldered connections recognizing the ensuing corrosion if we didn't. All soldered connections require flux for the most part to ensure proper adhesion. The flux (acidic or alkaline) which is either applied independently or is introduced as the solder "core", etches the conductors thus eliminating contaminants which would otherwise impact the quality of the connection. Cleaning a freshly soldered joint is a pain in the *** and regrettably never thorough enough despite our best efforts. Flux remover or any neutralizing agent can effectively eliminate the heightened corrosion associated with soldering at the joint unfortunately flux upon heating is quickly "wicked" into the insulation thus irreparably "shortening" the life and integrity of the connection. "Capillary action" the premise behind the migrating flux, also allows solder to flow along the copper filaments into the insulation which when cooled creates a rigid spot along the flexible wire. Accelerated corrosion a by-product of the remaining flux, and the repeated stress of vibration and "hinging" at the interface between the flexible copper and the rigid soldered connection places a limited life span on the joint. And more importantly a degradation in the conductance of the connection. In recognition of this fact, my pursuit for a better method began.

Not long into my research a solution was revealed. An effective connection from the perspective of strength and conductance could be easily created through a mechanical crimp. Through the use of pure tinned copper connectors and the appropriate ratcheting crimping tool, a form of "fusion" could be created amongst the strands of copper wire. The following image represents a cross section of a crimped terminal. The left picture demonstrates "the fusion" which I speak of. The individual strands of copper are indistinguishable. The right picture was created with the same wire, and the same connector but with a poor quality "dimple" style crimping tool. The individual filaments of copper are easy to see and even the wall thickness of the connector appears different. Through testing, it was revealed that the "fused" copper filaments are impenetrable by air (oxygen) thus further eliminating the opportunity for corrosion (a happy accident). Lastly the addition of an adhesive lined polyolefin heat shrink tubing perfectly compliments the joint adding both strength and waterproofing.

Here's another close up;

Given my huge stubbornness, it took me a while to accept defeat but needless to say all of my connections are now quickly and happily crimped. My quest revealed an interesting statement which summarized my thoughts, "soldering for electrical conductance was created for circuit boards where proper flux removal is attainable and as such should never be employed in situations where insulated wires are being joined".

The following link will bring you to an extremely detailed report (easy to read with lots of pictures) which does a much better job of explaining things.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination

 

[gf0012-aust]

Both of those are traits of some guys I work with. Ex Telepower by any chance?

No, some time in a prev life working on milspec cables and connectors

 

[Wakefield]

Right kind vs. wrong kind of solder?
Acid in plumber's solder corrodes the wire?

 

[nanofrog]

Right kind vs. wrong kind of solder?
Acid in plumber's solder corrodes the wire?

Acid flux in electrical connections is a definite No-No.

But there are multiple types of flux suited to electrical connections (rosin, water soluble, and no-clean). Stay away from the water soluble stuff, as that needs to be cleaned, and if it's not done thoroughly, is worst than not cleaning it at all (is active in the presence of water). Personally, I prefer using rosin, particularly for tinning wire (no need to clean it off).

Then there's the solder itself. Lead-tin alloys (60/40 or 63/37) would be the better stuff to use (doesn't have tin whisker issues like the lead-free stuff does, isn't as brittle, easier to tell if you have a good joint <nice and shiny>, and it has a lower melting point).

 

[Mr.Nutcase]

i solder and crimp.. at the same time.
there are crimp connectors than can be solder at the same time..
then use shrink wrapped tubing

 

[racingtadpole]

Right kind vs. wrong kind of solder?
Acid in plumber's solder corrodes the wire?

Plumbing flux and plumbing solder are just that, for plumbing. ALL fluxes if not cleaned off very thoroughly will create corrosion. The purpose of flux is to clean the surface of the conductors to allow the solder to bond to it. All fluxes fall outside the PH Neutral range meaning they will cause deterioration of the parent metal they are applied to if not removed at the completion of the process (if PH alkaline it works like a caustic bath, if PH acid it works the same as an acid bath). As flux wicks into the conductors of a cable that are inside the insulation jacket it makes it nigh on impossible to clean it out and prevent future corrosion of the conductors.

Acid flux in electrical connections is a definite No-No.

But there are multiple types of flux suited to electrical connections (rosin, water soluble, and no-clean). Stay away from the water soluble stuff, as that needs to be cleaned, and if it's not done thoroughly, is worst than not cleaning it at all (is active in the presence of water). Personally, I prefer using rosin, particularly for tinning wire (no need to clean it off).

Then there's the solder itself. Lead-tin alloys (60/40 or 63/37) would be the better stuff to use (doesn't have tin whisker issues like the lead-free stuff does, isn't as brittle, easier to tell if you have a good joint <nice and shiny>, and it has a lower melting point).

Rosin/Resin flux DOES need to be cleaned off. As above its outside the PH range for neutral (from memory its PH acid, I think??). Regardless it will cause issues if left in situ at process completion.
Unless you go to a specialty supplier the only solder available off the shelf is 60/40 (well at least thats the case here, might be different stateside) and usually it comes flux cored (usually Rosin/Resin) and most people who think they can solder actually cant tell the difference between a good joint and a dry one. If you have whiskering problems, you have WAAAYYYYY too much heat in the joint and have overcooked the solder.

 

[amlv20]

Anything automotive (or in my boat) gets crimped and heat shrink tubing. The flux and/or rosin used with the solder is very corrosive. The heat weakens the integrity of plastic insulation. And the soldered joint is prone to breaking via vibration because it is brittle.

Indoors with certain audio components and circuit repairs, I'll solder.

thats what i do always.

 

[nanofrog]

Rosin/Resin flux DOES need to be cleaned off. As above its outside the PH range for neutral (from memory its PH acid, I think??). Regardless it will cause issues if left in situ at process completion.
Unless you go to a specialty supplier the only solder available off the shelf is 60/40 (well at least thats the case here, might be different stateside) and usually it comes flux cored (usually Rosin/Resin) and most people who think they can solder actually cant tell the difference between a good joint and a dry one. If you have whiskering problems, you have WAAAYYYYY too much heat in the joint and have overcooked the solder.

Take a look at the following:

Cleaning:
Kester 44 ... [snip]... In all these billions of solder
joints, involving the most delicate and critical of electrical and electronic components, there has never been
an authentic instance of corrosion by the flux residue under normal conditions of use. This mild property of
the residue permits leaving the flux on the assembly for many applications.

Source. (direct to .pdf)

Never seen corrosion when it was left alone.

What were you using that you've seen corrosion due to the flux, and what was the application?

 

[WVBrady]

I'm sure he meant silicone grease.

Yes, also known as silicone dielectric.

 

[andywander]

I almost always crimp, but some occasions call for solder. Does any one else use marrets to hold wires together while troubleshooting? I end up doing that for trailers and such where some one has used all sorts of different coloured wires and you just need to hold them together to make sure everything works then remove marrets and wire correctly and neatly.

What are "marrets"?

 

[PowerGenGuy]

Crimp, AMP, T&B, Klien crimpers, always!