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Solder or Crimp?

Solder or Crimp?

  • Solder all connections possible

    Votes: 116 56.6%
  • Use crimp on solderless connections

    Votes: 85 41.5%
  • Other, (electrical tape, wire nuts, other hackish method)

    Votes: 4 2.0%

  • Total voters
    205

PrecisionTools

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Jun 4, 2011
Messages
703
Location
Victoria, Australia
"Neutral Cure" silicone sealer is OK around electronic components. Next time your in a hardware store, look for the dearer stuff labelled as such.

My understanding of the flux in the old lead solder was that it was only corrosive at the temperatures of the molten solder. Having said that I still always clean it off either on a repaired PCB or a newly assembled PCB. I'm not sure if the flux in the new lead-free stuff is any different.
 
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andywander

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Mar 24, 2012
Messages
359
I always understood the objection to soldered joints in cases where vibration is present to actually be more about the wire itself than the joint.

Wires that are subject to vibration are usually finely stranded, to avoid the wire breaking when fatigued from vibration. Any good solder joint will cause solder to wick up into the strands and, in effect, give a short length of solid wire at the connection.
 

someone else

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Jan 19, 2012
Messages
64
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MA
I grew up with a father who fixed TVs, Radios, etc. for a living, as well as being a broadcast engineer for a radio station and a local TV station. I also grew up with a father who knew how to fix just about everything. So I learned to solder and wire various things very young, and I like to think I'm pretty damn good at it. I solder where I can, crimp when I have to, and wire nut where I'm supposed to. Never had a solder joint break. Can't say I've had a crimp fail either. But then again, I've got a good iron, I've got some good crimping tools, and I don't cheap out. Do it right the first time.

And someone mentioned earlier a good iron can cost as much as good crimping tools and there I have to disagree - a good Weller will only run you about $125. But, then again, you do need to know how to use it ;-)
 

nanofrog

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Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,323
a good Weller will only run you about $125. But, then again, you do need to know how to use it ;-)
I only said that they *can*, not that all are.

BTW, you can get a very good quality ratcheting crimper for ~$100USD mark (possibly less, depending on the die and the shipping charges).

As per Weller, they aren't what they used to be unfortunately. DOA's are rather high in recent years, particularly with the WES/WESD51 series and the latest WX series (so bad there was a recall). I own a WD1001 (+ a larger WP80 iron), and if I had to do it over again, I probably wouldn't (also have QC issues).

For a less expensive station (only need to use but the iron that comes with the station; no tweezers, hot plate, larger iron,...), the Hakko FX-888D would offer the best-bang-for-the-buck right now. They just discontinued the FX-888 (analog knob rather than digital), but should still be some stock for those interested (FX-888 can be had on Amazon for just over $80 last I saw).
 

someone else

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Jan 19, 2012
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Location
MA
I only said that they *can*, not that all are.

BTW, you can get a very good quality ratcheting crimper for ~$100USD mark (possibly less, depending on the die and the shipping charges).

As per Weller, they aren't what they used to be unfortunately. DOA's are rather high in recent years, particularly with the WES/WESD51 series and the latest WX series (so bad there was a recall). I own a WD1001 (+ a larger WP80 iron), and if I had to do it over again, I probably wouldn't (also have QC issues).

For a less expensive station (only need to use but the iron that comes with the station; no tweezers, hot plate, larger iron,...), the Hakko FX-888D would offer the best-bang-for-the-buck right now. They just discontinued the FX-888 (analog knob rather than digital), but should still be some stock for those interested (FX-888 can be had on Amazon for just over $80 last I saw).

I meant no disrespect, just a good natured jab. Crimps have their place, just like soldering and wire nuts. Some cases it just comes down to personal preference.

I haven't had to buy an iron in forever. I know my dad just bought a new Weller for his bench at the local TV studio, said it only ran him $125. I didn't know Weller had dropped off. I've got one of my dad's old Weller's and its a champ. I do not want to even guess at the amount of hours it has been used. I was thinking of getting a new one as I just put together a new work station, and thought of retiring it, but it may just be better to run this one till the wheels fall off.
 

racingtadpole

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Dec 3, 2011
Messages
2,029
Location
The far side of crazy.. but sometimes Australia
Take a look at the following:

Source. (direct to .pdf)

Never seen corrosion when it was left alone.

What were you using that you've seen corrosion due to the flux, and what was the application?

One product from one manufacturer, that Im yet to see in Australia. If I get the chance to use it rest assured I will follow manufacturers recommendations.
 
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nanofrog

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Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,323
I meant no disrespect, just a good natured jab.
That's fine. :thumbup:

I was thinking of getting a new one as I just put together a new work station, and thought of retiring it, but it may just be better to run this one till the wheels fall off.
I would. And if you can still find repair parts and tips, do that until they're no longer available.

There's good stuff out there, but depending on what you need, will exceed $125 rather quickly.

The Hakko FX-888D is supposed to have a price point around that of the original FX-888 (should mean MSRP is ~$100 in the US). Next step jumps to $250, and seems to be the sweet spot IMHO. Specifically, take a look at the Hakko FX-951, as it's a very nice station with a lot of newer technology packed in for that price, such as heating element is contained in the tip. Tips for it aren't horribly expensive either (most would be ~$16, though there are some that are ~$40, such as for PLCC packages). Then it jumps to $400+, and you're at the top of the line (JBC for temp control, or OKi for curie point). All single port stations BTW.

One product from one manufacturer, that I'm yet to see in Australia. If I get the chance to use it rest assured I will follow manufacturers recommendations.
I'll ask again; What were you using, and what was the application?

I'm genuinely curious, not trying to give you a hard time.

Please understand that even if it's technically unnecessary, I still clean PCB's. Workmanship just looks shoddy without it IMHO. But with a tinned wire, I find there's usually nothing to clean off.

Which is why I ask, as I've not actually seen corrosion from a proper joint that used rosin flux. Especially in a wire.

Now if it turned color (caramel or darker), that does need to be cleaned off, as it's chemical composition changed due to excessive heat being applied.

BTW, I specifically looked for the pH, and didn't find it (listed as "Not Applicable" on the MSDS). But from what I do understand, is that rosin is only acidic in a liquid state. Once it solidifies, it's no longer acidic and can't harm the base metals it was used to help join.

In the case of Kester products, they're on par with MultiCore (from what I understand, MultiCore is more prevalent in Australia). If you're interested, Kester has an Australian distributor here.
 

The Lazy Destroyer

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Jun 1, 2011
Messages
181
Location
Woodstock GA
Really depends for me. If possible I crimp, then light solder, then color-matched heatshrink. Depending on the application (at connectors, or where I may need to remove, or if it is someplace I can't physically solder) then I will just crimp and don't think twice about it.

Obviously if done poorly or using incorrect tools both solder connectors and crimp connections can fail. I've had to re-do both types but probably mostly the soldered joints since that takes more "finesse" which I don't have 100% of the time. :)
 

Skin

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Feb 24, 2010
Messages
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Boston
Slightly OT but related, do any US companies make a nice crimper with dies for $300 or less or is it all imported? I see there is a decent set for $100 out of Taiwan (Toptul/Bluepoint) and Knipex has a set but dont know of any US made with similar features. I wouldnt mind investing in a set.
 
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Roots

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Oct 31, 2010
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Slightly OT but related, do any US companies make a nice crimper with dies for $300 or less or is it all imported? I see there is a decent set for $100 out of Taiwan (Toptul/Bluepoint) and Knipex has a set but dont know of any US made with similar features. I wouldnt mind investing in a set.

While not American, these Swedish Crimpers (Sta-Kon/Thomas and Betts)are generally viewed as the gold standard and can be found around $300, once in awhile. Graingers
 

Skin

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Messages
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While not American, these Swedish Crimpers (Sta-Kon/Thomas and Betts)are generally viewed as the gold standard and can be found around $300, once in awhile. Graingers

Do they not sell seperate dies or am i just not seeing them? For example can you purchase the one in your link and get a die for non-insulated as well? Basically looking for something the equivalent of this

multicrimp.jpg
 
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racingtadpole

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The far side of crazy.. but sometimes Australia
I'll ask again; What were you using, and what was the application?

I'm genuinely curious, not trying to give you a hard time.

In the case of Kester products, they're on par with MultiCore (from what I understand, MultiCore is more prevalent in Australia). If you're interested, Kester has an Australian distributor here.

Thanks, but unfortunately I dont get any say in procurement. The current roll of solder in my tool box is from Consolidated Alloy, the one before had no markings on the individual rolls. On the rare occaissions I do work in my trade at home, I pilfer the solder from my work toolbox.

As for what I was using and the application, I deliberately avoided that because questions like that usually loaded and more often than not result in the thread becoming a ******* contest.
My work has been largely centred around install and maintenance, although I did have a very brief stint in a manufacturing plant (just long enough to decide it wasnt for me and I would never do it again). I installed some data logging gear for a company on some BIG trucks at a mine. High failure rate after handover. The company I worked for at the time only supplied the labour to fit them, the data loggers, RF transponders and looms came from somewhere in Asia if I remember correctly. Of the 30+ looms installed, all of them had to be removed and reconstructed by our workshop (although there was 4 or 5 that were done as a purely preventative measure). The conductors were fracturing just inside the connectors a mm or so up from the solder and all had green corrosion fuzz ringed by a dark brown layer of flux residue. Was vibration a contributing factor, almost certainly, but definately not the sole cause.

More recently I had the pleasure of replacing a couple of launcher assemblies on some Andrews parabolic dishes that failed within a couple of months of install. When we got them to ground and pulled the seals the RF connectors that facilitate connection to the feeder coax had failed on the centre conductor. No sign of water ingress (as one would expect in a desert) and once again a green hue to the broken conductor. The wind in this instance would have been a contributing factor, but not the sole cause of failure.

Just a couple of random examples to satisfy your curiousity




Slightly OT but related, do any US companies make a nice crimper with dies for $300 or less or is it all imported? I see there is a decent set for $100 out of Taiwan (Toptul/Bluepoint) and Knipex has a set but dont know of any US made with similar features. I wouldnt mind investing in a set.

This is my weapon of choice:
http://www.rexel.com.au/products/CRIMPING-TOOL-22-10AWG-0-5-6MM2_CCT10_264832.html
 

2manytoyz

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Sep 20, 2011
Messages
419
Location
Central FL
Soldering is a great way to connect wires. I have formal training and certificaiton. I have a PACE station at work, and also at home.

That said, there's nothing wrong with a proper crimp. Many times I use an AMP 59250 crimper. This is an approved method for wire terminations on aircraft, so more than acceptiable for automobile use.

You can find these crimpers used on Ebay for about $100.00. I've used mine for many thousands of connections.

Use whatever method you chose, but if you crimp, just be sure to use quality connectors.
 

nanofrog

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Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,323
Slightly OT but related, do any US companies make a nice crimper with dies for $300 or less or is it all imported? I see there is a decent set for $100 out of Taiwan (Toptul/Bluepoint) and Knipex has a set but don't know of any US made with similar features. I wouldn't mind investing in a set.
Sargent is still US made, but last I saw, they've stopped making a fair number of die sets.

Pressmaster, though an import, is Swedish. They're also the company that makes the T&B Sta-Kon pair linked. Specifically, they make the MCT (interchangeable dies) that can be had for ~$50 + dies. So it's possible to get the die you need as well as the frame within the $100 mark (can be had at Waytek <sold under their own name>, as does Wiha). I'd check kctoolco.com, Amazon, and Waytek for pricing.

Do they not sell separate dies or am i just not seeing them?
This is made by Pressmaster for T&B, and Yes, there are additional dies (here).

Just be aware, that the selection is fairly limited, and if you need an open barrel set, they have additional alignment pins that mean you'd need a separate tool (pins mean the die can't be removed from the frame, and that particular die set is not sold separately). To see what I mean, take a look at photos of the Xcelite ECP112 vs. the ECP100.

These use the same dies as the T&B model linked, the frame is less expensive under the Xcelite brand (slightly older design, but they work well).

Thanks, but unfortunately I don't get any say in procurement. The current roll of solder in my tool box is from Consolidated Alloy, the one before had no markings on the individual rolls. On the rare occasions I do work in my trade at home, I pilfer the solder from my work toolbox.
Can't beat free, and I'd do the same thing in your place. :D

If possible, you might want to look up the datasheet on what you're currently using to see what it is.

I've not had good luck with no-name solder, so I learned the hard way to stick to the name brand stuff. Hence the mention of Kester (easier to get here). They make 4x different rosin formulations (44 = R <least active>, 186 = RMA, 186-18 = RMA, low solids <both are mildly active>, and 48 = RA <most active>), none of which generally require cleaning (non-corrosive in a solid state). 44 is great for new work, 186 or 48 is better suited to rework and repair (heavily oxidized parts/boards).

Perhaps you might want to go for something else if you're concerned (no idea how it functions otherwise). Since you can't clean flux that's wicked up the insulation, this would be a serious concern to me if I were in your situation, and would do my best to try and figure out what's going on.

Just a suggestion, as I'm not familiar with what you've been using.

As for what I was using and the application, I deliberately avoided that because questions like that usually loaded and more often than not result in the thread becoming a ******* contest.
Understandable, but that wasn't the intent.

Assuming it is rosin, I'm very curious as there aren't a lot of applications that would require cleaning for technical reasons.

The conductors were fracturing just inside the connectors a mm or so up from the solder and all had green corrosion fuzz ringed by a dark brown layer of flux residue. Was vibration a contributing factor, almost certainly, but definitely not the sole cause.
I'd wonder what they were using flux wise (specifics would be critical), and were the joints sealed from moisture?

Assuming it's rosin, it's too dark (over cooked) by your description, and would cause problems. But I see this as operator error, not an inherent flaw in the type of flux used.

Please understand, I've done QC in the past, so this sort of thing interests me.

I've seen/heard the claims that rosin will cause corrosion, but have yet to see real proof (turned out it was exposed to water/corrosive chemicals, flux wasn't rosin <acid used in a repair, or lately, an organic formulation was used rather than rosin>, or operator error <over cooked>).

More recently I had the pleasure of replacing a couple of launcher assemblies on some Andrews parabolic dishes that failed within a couple of months of install. When we got them to ground and pulled the seals the RF connectors that facilitate connection to the feeder coax had failed on the centre conductor. No sign of water ingress (as one would expect in a desert) and once again a green hue to the broken conductor. The wind in this instance would have been a contributing factor, but not the sole cause of failure.
Lead or lead free solder?

I've seen stuff like this with organics more often than anything else (water soluble), due to incomplete cleaning or it was left on and water got in.

The reason I brought up lead-free, is it usually uses the newer flux formulations rather than rosin based.

Seen them online, but never had physical access to one yet.

How is it?

Good, less expensive alternatives would certainly be welcome. ;)
 

works4me

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Aug 11, 2011
Messages
250
Location
Houston Texas
FYI here's the FULL NASA document on wire splicing techniques and standards:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.pdf

It includes sections on both the crimped termination instructions mentioned previously as well as Strouty's Western Union soldiering technique and several others.

Net net it appears they use both soldering and crimping techniques as appropriate to the situation. And this is only logical.

Personally I use a technique similar to Strouty's for smaller gauge wires and crimping for larger gauge wires. This has worked well for me on everything from Racecars to R/C vehicles to Autonomous Mobile Robots.

Couple of points on this:

1. As the NASA document states, only use enough solder to provide adhesion. This prevents the stress breakage alluded to in earlier posts.

2. The correct sizing of the crimp connector vs. wire is critical. I've noticed variations in wire diameter on cheaper brand wires. And the cheaper connectors cover a range of wire diameters. So they fit properly at one diameter, and are progressively worse at the others.

My suggestion is to buy the best materials & tools you can afford, learn how to use them properly, and stress test practice pieces to destruction to make sure your perception matches reality...

Hope this helps.
 

Thunderbisciut

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Dec 2, 2012
Messages
340
Location
Cape Cod
Crimp, solder, and adhesive lined heat shrink. The problem with just soldering a connection is that if there is a short it can instantly melt the solder and pull out the connection. Stay the hell away from those solderless crimp terminals that you find at the autoparts stores, those things are garbage. Get a nice ratcheting crimper with the proper dies for the terminals you use, they don't have to be expensive either. Even the cheap ones work great. Also, if these connections are going to be exposed to the elements be sure to get sealed connections. For solder I use 63/37 rosin core in a variety of diameters for whatever work I'm doing.

One tip if you're working on an old car's harness and the wires are corroded, strip the end and dip it in rust REMOVER for a minute or so. You can also just put some on a rag and just rub the wire between the rag. Rust remover is usually some type of mild acid that will eat away at the corrosion. Be sure to rinse thouroughly afterwards. You'll be able to get nice solder flow after. Don't let the wire wick it up into the insulation though, you'll be in trouble later on.
 
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