Solid Rivets Teach me the way

[hunter1151]

Wow hunter....nice work!

Is the rib 2024 as well or maybe a 6000 series? 6013?

This one is a real mixed bag....the T-extrusion was 7075 T6 but had to be taken back to 0 condition to form the joggles and shrink the curve in it, then sent to heat treat again and taken back up to T4 and aged up to T7, then final machining and then Chem film and prime. The extruded angle is 2024-0, I formed it with a shrinker and sent it to heat treat to T4 cond. The former is .032 2024-0 clad which was hydro-formed and then sent to heat treat to T4. The former moves in the heat treat process so you have to "handform" it back to the shape of the developed hydro-form block. The webs were the easiest as we just milled them out of .071 7075 T7 clad sheet metal. Whew!!! Now we are waiting on the rivets to be heated back to the AQ (as quenched) condition, will be put on dry ice, taken back to the shop and put in the freezer. We have to take them out individually and rivet it before it "sets".............Sorry to be so long on this, but maybe some people will find it interesting to see how airplane parts are made. This is just one little nose rib assembly

 

[Trey T]

Neat line of work.

It's expensive because it's made by the Americans and American contractors are expensive.

Here is one........military aircraft rib. Will be using DD rivets, they are shipped as heat treated rivets 2024-T4, they must be sent back to heat treat before installation, and put in the AQ condition, kept in a freezer at -10F, taken out of freezer and squeezed and left to assume room temperature, which takes it back up to T-4. What a pain in the azz...........

All parts were made in house, shrunk the angle and T-extrusion to curve, sent the T out for joggle, made the form block for the "former" at the nose, and hydro-formed with 2400 ton hydro press. And people wonder why airplanes cost so much.

 

[Trey T]

First time I hear any type of adhesive to connect parts together for structural integrity. Do they really use it for structural aircraft components? I always thought the only two approved methods are mechanical fastener and welding for structural, where public safety is concerned.

...
Do Aircraft assemblies use structural glue? I have used T-88 glue on all previous tubs. I would prefer a more urathany type bond. It seems the bond is not that good where it's oily or when the joint gets knocked around for a long time.

 

[Graham08]

I don't know about aircraft, but it used to be pretty common on racecar tubs when the top levels of racing used aluminum monocoques. The adhesive keeps the pieces from fretting and loosening up with use. It prolongs the life of the tub.

On edit: This is in addition to rivets, not in place of them.

 

[Trey T]

I guess it makes sense to use it in conjunction with mechanical fastener like rivets.

 

[NASTYZEN]

Here's a little update.
I set up all three cars all over the shop and got seriously into preparing and did all the rivet pulling on the first tub.....t'ill I got to the solid rivets......
I've had the rivets for 2 years and assumed they were correct, after all the customer gave them to me with the project.

Well I assumed wrong"%?*?% and &*(??&%$!!!!!

They should have a dimple in them that indicates that they are relatively soft.
The ones I have are way too hard.

Now we've been looking for some in the UK for a month, nothing.....

Would any one know where I could find Purple rivets with a dimple in them???
I'm looking for 3 different lengths. I could use a couple thousand of each.
Mark Bonner Engineering just got some, but he can't spare any right now ,I'm royaly F??%%*

They MUST be Purple for the period restoration.

 

[ZTFab]

Try these places...??

G & J Aircraft and Competition
1115 S. Sultana Ave.
Ontario, CA 91761
Phone #: (909) 296-1754
Fax #: (909) 984-5516
[email protected]


Aircraft Spruce WEST
225 Airport Circle
Corona, CA 92880
Tel: 951-372-9555
Fax: 951-372-0555
Toll Free: 800-824-1930



G&J is right down the street from me and is an old military/aircraft surplus store that specializes in race car hardware and plumbing parts.

ZRX61 may have some sources for you....

 

[theoldwizard1]

First time I hear any type of adhesive to connect parts together for structural integrity. Do they really use it for structural aircraft components?

Can't speak for aircraft, but it is used on some production automobile to increase the strength of a joint between steel panels that are spot welded.

I don't know at the moment, but Ford was using adhesive in some of the floor pan joints on Mustangs. Higher horsepower was causing the existing spot welds to fail when the body tried to twist. They would have had to double or triple the number of spot welds (too much time) or continuously weld the joint (skill, lack of consistence) to get the equivalent amount of strength.

 

[NASTYZEN]

Thasnk's ZT, I'll hunt em down.
Stuck on the lathe all day right now.....

 

[A_Pmech]

They should have a dimple in them that indicates that they are relatively soft.
The ones I have are way too hard.

What IS on the head?

Sounds like you got some "ice box" rivets. If so, they must be heat treated before use.

 

[Mario428]

One of 6 cradles used to hold a 3000 gal tank in a water bomber. All sheet and extrusion 2024-T4 except for the bent mounting plates at the bottom ends. They were fabricated from T0 and then heat treated to T4. T4 required far too big a bend radius to use as is. Everything except those mounting plates is assembled with 2024 rivets, the mounting plates used a special threaded fastener (forget the name). All the rivets squeezed using the blue squeezer in the background. We were supplied with all the rivets in 1/16 increments so no trimming required, the tolerances on the mil spec for the rivets were wide enough for the 1/16 to work in all places.
Quoting the next airplane set now.

 

[hunter1151]

Nice work Mario...........

 

[hunter1151]

Did you find your rivets Nasty???

 

[2drx4]

First time I hear any type of adhesive to connect parts together for structural integrity. Do they really use it for structural aircraft components? I always thought the only two approved methods are mechanical fastener and welding for structural, where public safety is concerned.

Yes, some stuff is 'glued'. Normally it's in conjunction with rivets, but my understanding is that on a lot of the more modern stuff the rivets are more for locating during the bonding process rather than structure. As was mentioned, it is now common to build cars with adhesives rather than welding. Lots of aircraft are going to composite construction, and lots have been for a long time, so they employ structural adhesives quite often as there isn't a lot of choice.

The main beams and tailboom on a Bell 204/205/212/214 are largely bonded aluminum honeycomb panels with other parts joined to them by riveting. Likewise, the blades are made mostly of aluminum/aluminum honeycomb, and it is all bonded with adhesives. The adhesive is critical in both applications, and is responsible for the entire structural integrity.

We often bond riveted aluminum joints with a sealing compound because it remains flexible after curing. It allows for some movement, since helicopter airframes tend to have quite a bit of unavoidable movement in them. It definitely keeps the rivets tight for a lot longer (put the rivets in wet with it too). I've also used Magnobond and some other similar adhesives to perform major repairs, and it works excellent if there is enough surface area (prep is critical on that too).

 

[NASTYZEN]

What IS on the head?

Sounds like you got some "ice box" rivets. If so, they must be heat treated before use.

Sorry it took so long.......I'm a one man company....last minute deadlines have to be met. They even dumped mill work on me that they need for Monday....

So this is what I have on hand.

They have nada on the head and a dimple on the underside. They are friggin hard.
The ones I need should have a dimple on'' top '' and be softer.
I need to rivet 6061-T4 sheets together as well as some metal gusseting and such.
I need 3 dif. grip lengths. Because of the period state restoration on these I can't get a bunch of long ones and cut them as suited. They must have the purple anodized all over.....
I've used this type of rivet before and had no issues.



Whoa! That's a whole lotta rivets! Looks like you have fun over there.

Yes, some stuff is 'glued'.

I already have the glue from the customer. Personally ,I would use something better , like what your talking about. Adhesives have come a long way.

 

[NASTYZEN]

Finally got time to call MANY places......no one has even heard of Purple rivets....OOooooooooooooooo!
An other option would be to take regular Gold colored ones, have them stripped and anodized Purple... So far, no one here does Purple anodize....

 

[smschriefer]

Hey Nasty, did you see this thread? It appears the color indicates tensile strength.
http://www.lolaheritage.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1301

They give a UK source.
Sapphire Products Limited
Units 4 - 6 Dunton Industrial Estate
Mount Street, Nechells, Birmingham, B7 5QL
Tel : 0121 326 6000 or 0121 327 4868
Fax : 0121 328 5518

http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk

 

[NASTYZEN]

Hey Nasty, did you see this thread?

Hey ,thank's smschriefer!
I just sent them an e mail....hoping this will work.

 

[BFBOB]

I've used small copper rivets in a few projects. I have used sections cut from 12 GA wire, drill a hole about 1/8" deep in a steel block, insert wire, place pieces to be joined on, cut the wire about 1/8" proud, smack with with a hammer. Pull out of he hole, flip over so the head you just made is flat on the steel block, smack it with a hammer. Instant rivet. Not the strongest, I'm sure, and making a custom die out of a punch would make prettier heads, but it's quick, easy, and works.

 

[ZRX61]

Got a bunch of purple rivets, some have the dimple on top... but they are countersunk. not universal.

 

[NASTYZEN]

Got a bunch of purple rivets, some have the dimple on top... but they are countersunk. not universal.

Just the fact that you have anything Purple is amazing...
NO aircraft people I've spoken to lately even heard of Purple ones??

The people over at Sapphire products in the UK got back to me just before. (after my second e-mail saying , Hello! Anybody home!)

I gave them the specs and qty's.......waiting for the quote..

Thanks anyway ZRX61 !!

I'll let you know what transpires.

 

[smschriefer]

Excellent news on the rivets. I'm glad I was able to find a source for you. Now I hope the price is not too bad.

 

[PCO6]

NASTY- ZT mentioned Aircraft Spruce West above. You may already know that they have a facility in Brantford, Ontario as well. I'm not sure if they can help you with your purple rivets but they may be of some assistance on other projects. They are are good to deal with and you won't have any cross border headaches.

Aircraft Spruce Canada ...
http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/

 

[ZRX61]

Just the fact that you have anything Purple is amazing...
NO aircraft people I've spoken to lately even heard of Purple ones??

The people over at Sapphire products in the UK got back to me just before. (after my second e-mail saying , Hello! Anybody home!)

I gave them the specs and qty's.......waiting for the quote..

Thanks anyway ZRX61 !!

I'll let you know what transpires.

They're used on Supermarine Spitfires & Hawker Typhoon/Tempests. Most of the ones I have are made by Linread PLC in the UK, no telling how old they may be.

 

[NASTYZEN]

Excellent news on the rivets. I'm glad I was able to find a source for you. Now I hope the price is not too bad.

Yeehaa! there on the way! Shipping will prob. be more expensive than the rivets. Thanks again!

NASTY- ZT mentioned Aircraft Spruce West above. You may already know that they have a facility in Brantford, Ontario as well. I'm not sure if they can help you with your purple rivets but they may be of some assistance on other projects. They are are good to deal with and you won't have any cross border headaches.

Aircraft Spruce Canada ...
http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/

Thanks PCO6, called them already. Educated them as well about Purple rivets...They were nice enough to refer me to Britain West Motorsports.
I had already tried them though. I've known and been making stuff for the Clubines for over 25 years. LOL I remember when Dave was a teenager....

 

[PCO6]

Yeehaa! there on the way! Shipping will prob. be more expensive than the rivets. Thanks again!



Thanks PCO6, called them already. Educated them as well about Purple rivets...They were nice enough to refer me to Britain West Motorsports.
I had already tried them though. I've known and been making stuff for the Clubines for over 25 years. LOL I remember when Dave was a teenager....

Dave's no longer a teenager! When did that happen?