Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
Google: Kensington Philadelphia Zombies
Sparky labor rate
- Thread starter theoldwizard1
- Start date
Cruzan80
Well-known member
So you thought that the $1500 price three years ago was a straight answer, but don't like current price of $2000? Prices have gone up almost universally as time goes on.
Based on your math ($300 for parts, $150/hr @ 4hr minimum), you are still below his quotes from 3 years ago.
As has been stated multiple times in this thread, most electricians are charging far more than what you think you should have to pay. Not comedians, just reality. Either pay them, or DIY it. But complaining about why they don't want to do the job for your offer is kind of pointless...
Jim greengo
Well-known member
If I was a carpenter I wouldn't want somebody supplying a bunch of twisted lumber,but maybe that's just me. Hahaha
Jim greengo
Well-known member
He's not going anyplace. HahahaI think we scared off the OP in this thread - perhaps he's properly learned the meaning of the phrase "Man, that stove is hot!".
sparky 1971
Well-known member
That's probably about right for the small and medium sized shops as far as labor goes. I have a $150 minimum on the labor and may or may not charge a $100 trip charge (usually not).
But that doesn't answer the question which is: What would you consider a fair price if there were no markup (when I supply everything)? The question is based on me showing up with everything I need to accomplish the project. Let's say you needed the panel changed, but because of that, the service had to be upgraded due to the new NEC requirements, the material to accomplish that task cost me $1000.00 and if I were able to do that in four hours or less, according to you a fair price would be between $1400.00 and $1600.00? With those parameters set, the bill from me would be at a minimum $1940, $1500 for the materials and $440 for the labor but if you tried to help or told me what I needed to do, the $100 trip (pain in the ***) charge would be invoiced as well making it $2040 and that's still more than fair, probably cheap in my area and really cheap compared to other places in the U.S. If you were price shopping and wanted a quote, I'd probably be around $2700.00 for the same thing and that would be cheap compared to the quotes you'd get from other contractors.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Because they have a business to run. Hell, I have an office in my basement so I don't have to worry about renting/owning a shop and by the time the expenses I do have get paid, there ain't a whole lot left over for me. When all the unbillable hours (bidding, meetings, paperwork, etc) I put in are figured, I probably make less per hour than if I were to go back to work for someone. I make more over the course of the year, but I put in a lot more time.
Metal-Marc
Well-known member
Oh come on. I'm supplying the lumber and the nails.
dave*99
Well-known member
Bent nails , an anvil and hammer?
Folks with no business ownership experience think of 'pay' as the hourly/weekly rate an employee receives. So $50-100 hourly is good/great. What's missing is the added taxes and payment to another employee to calculate all those. Then Rent/Insurance/workers comp/etc are on top of that. So 100-150 and hour is a more likely range of cost to the employer or owner/operator.
Customers (me included) would balk at an hourly rate that captures all that cost, provides profit to grow the business, and a return on investment. That last is why anyone runs their own business. Without it, you might as well work for someone else.
So parts markup is use fill the gap between labor income and the total needed to provide the above.
OTOH, I also disagree with some of the outrageous pricing for things like caps. $5 cost should not warrant $160 cap charges as mentioned in this thread. But, flat % charges won't work, even a 50% markup on small parts won't adequately recover the cost of acquiring the part and profit. Trip charges are a good way to handle that.
Edit to add: But, (there's always one of those, right) a large part of the cost of doing business is driven by various rules and regs that are enacted without a real cost/benefit analysis. That whole issue borders on political discussion, so I'll just say the various alphabet agencies should be held to smart business principles. There are those that say about safety regulations, 'you can't put a price on human life'. That's BS, you, I everybody do it every day, when we decide how much insurance to buy, and the companies do every time there is a settlement.
Last edited:
There's always an exception to every rule. lolI remember being shocked many years ago. My wife and I each had a Lexus for several years. The service writer told me that I should just buy my own Mobil-1 and bring it in to save $$. He said they didn't mind it at all.
They've been the largest Lexus dealer in the western states for 35 years so I guess they make enough money.
It doesn't surprise me.... why would a service writer at a large dealership care if the shop uses the customers oil.... it won't affect his pay check. lolol.
kngelv
Well-known member
I'm south of Detroit so in the same region as the OP. A 24 slot QO load center is at least $200.00 and the value packs only come with 2 two pole breakers and three single pole breakers. You will need many more and they are not free. The 2023 NEC which is now in effect in Michigan adds some arc-flash and GFCI requirements that have to be accounted for and those breakers are in the $50.00-$60.00 range each. Also with a service change you'll need to add a second ground rod a surge protector and an outside emergency disconnect. All your circuits will need new hardware for the panel install and every circuit will have each wire end re-stripped to terminate. All this takes time. The electrician also has to pull a permit. My city charges $75.00 for the application, $75.00 for a residential rough inspection, $50.00 for the final and $50.00 for the service. That's $250.00 without any additional circuits added. I just had a second garage built and I'm starting the electrical this week. My permit was $525.00 with all that I am doing in there. Depending on the city there may be other things required. You are woefully misinformed as to the true cost of having this work done. There are a lot of overhead costs as many have pointed out. You can't look at the hourly rate as if it's what the electrician has going into his pocket. $2000.00 is a fair price. BTW I took the code update class in October as I'm a licensed electrician.
James
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
ummm contractors have to handle inventory and delivery costs as well. but you think they shouldn't mark up their materials??? smh
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
good luck getting a permit for a water heater someone else installed.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
ask him what his overhead costs are for this specific job and to run and keep the business open in general.... then ask him what he feels he should make per hour after paying for all the overhead. then ask him how much he makes on average as an owner over the year.... I bet you will be surprised at how much it costs to run a business and how much less from that initial hourly rate the owner ends up making in the end per hour.... dont forget to factor in all the time the owner works that cant be charged to a customer account.... it adds up quick.....
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
cost of living, cost to do business, on and on and on.... seems you expect a contractor to make the same as a bloke flipping burgers @ mcdonalds
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
bingo! bingo! BINGO!!!
purplezr2
Well-known member
Honestly, I would almost plan for a whole day...
One reason that companies have an upcharge on parts is overhead, cost money to get goods in the door and on vans. Inventory costs money, you think they stop an Menards in the morning and grab when they need?
Guessing you need to up your numbers for supplies. I just did a new panel install that was up to NEC 2023 per MN code.
I installed a 40 space, 200 Amp Homeline Panel with a total of 10 breakers. The smaller 15/20 amp breakers were ~60 each due to being GFCI, or Combo, the 2 40amp breakers were $100 ea, the surge protector was $100. I have about $1000 in parts when you throw in the small misc items.
I would also figure on more then 4hrs, guessing they will want to bill for a day, due to transit, not having another 1/2 day job to fill the time.
Didn't you work in R&D for Ford, or something like that, you should be able to understand there are lots of hidden cost in vehicle development, similar with running a business.
Last edited:
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
So you go down to city hall and fill out a permit for a water heater with YOU as the contractor and the installation is bad or worse yet causes a fire or flood, who is responsible?…….. The contractor says "look at the permit and it has Mr Wizards name as the contractor and HE is now the contractor, NOT ME……. He is responsible for everything"
When I was a code official I would have an old gent come in and tell me that his contractor told him to fill out a permit with his name as the contractor so I told the "uneducated consumer" to have his contractor fill out the paperwork and put his NJ seal on it then bring everything back. Sometimes the homeowner would say the contractor wanted $300 to fill out the permits or the contractor is from Pennsylvania and unlicensed in NJ.……. I would gladly "hunt" these shady contractors down and fine them and report them to the proper licensing board.
For you electricians out there, for the OPs job how much more would you charge him for the box, breakers and other parts he needs compared to what Menards or another “big box” would charge him for those same parts? I have never felt ripped off for what I have been charged for parts and have on some things been charged less than what I could buy them for. So why screw around trying to save an insignificant buck or two?
35Ford
Well-known member
Quick estimate to change a panel only, 4 hours labor, $600, double that number to cover material, $1,200 total.
Or, figure $600 to cover material, same number to cover labor, $1,200.00
Location and what material used will change the numbers but I've found if you know what one of the numbers will be, the other is going to be pretty close to the same.
Or, figure $600 to cover material, same number to cover labor, $1,200.00
Location and what material used will change the numbers but I've found if you know what one of the numbers will be, the other is going to be pretty close to the same.
I would assume it eats into their commission. But, 5 quarts of oils isn't a lot. And, that shop is not hurting for customers in any way, shape, or form. I thought it was a nice gesture on his part.
Seems to me most professional/skilled labor tracks about the same and I paid an auto dealer $204/hr.
So even $100/hr seems on the low side. $50/hr is living in the distant past.
Shops charge extra when you supply your own parts, and you don't get a warranty.
So even $100/hr seems on the low side. $50/hr is living in the distant past.
Shops charge extra when you supply your own parts, and you don't get a warranty.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Price those materials is dependent on too many factors. Is it a 100 amp six circuit panel or a 200 amp 40 space? How many breakers are needed? I can say that the total would be around 50% more than I paid after sales tax which is 7%. I take my price before tax and multiply it X 1.6. If my cost is $100, adding tax makes my total cost $107. $100X1.6=$160, $107X1.5=$160.5 and would round down to $160.00. And I don't turn around and charge him sales tax unless it's a repair. In Iowa, the only construction type things that are taxable are repairs; new construction, remodels, and upgrades aren't taxable even though taxes do get paid on the materials at the beginning. The really cheap stuff, less than $10, might get doubled, the really expensive things might only go up 25%. Over spring break I have to install a Square D I line 480 volt, 200 amp three phase breaker as part of a pretty big job at the local school. My cost on that is $2500 before tax ($2675 after) but I am charging them $3200 for it.
EDIT: The above would be for a time and material job. If it were a bid, the object is obviously to figure out what, as well as how long, it's going to take. I'll do my darndest to figure out the materials and give myself what I think is a reasonable amount of time to do it, but when that's figured up, I'll add another 10-25% on top. That is for three reasons: 1) In case I didn't think of something and have to supply more materials, 2) It takes a lot longer than anticipated (that's happening more and more these days, I'm 54 but think I can still move like I did when I was 25), and 3) the time I spent dicking around meeting the customer, looking it over and figuring out what it's going to take. I try to tell people it's going to cost less if I just come do it, but they rarely believe me and some have gotten pissed when I quoted them $500 for a job that took me an hour's time and $100 in parts. I just say I told you so and you were free to hire someone else. Usually they have tried to find someone else, but my price was the best.
Last edited:
Dagny
Well-known member
I have around 70 customers just like you and I strive to keep it that way. I have not bid a job in a long time. I use USA made capacitors and have hundreds of them in my truck. One thing about farmers they no **** work when they see it . and will pay more for stuff that last.
Dagny
Well-known member
I don't think I have ever marked up a capacitor more than 10 12 dollars.
OP
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
You are paying sales tax when you buy material?
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Yep. Right before I started, I sat down with both and accountant and lawyer and they helped me decide which way to go as far as Inc. or LLC. I honestly don't remember everything that was said, but it basically came down to sales tax has to get paid by someone, it might as well be me since 95+% of the time I'm not charging sales tax due to almost everything being new construction, remodel, or upgrades. If I was tax exempt, it would have been more of a pain than it was worth, at least in 2010 when I went on my own. I don't care, I'm getting reimbursed for it. Before all that happened and I was talking to the boss about his idea of him retiring and selling me everything, I remember him saying he paid sales tax and the company had been started by his dad in 1957. I also know he said he charged tax because he paid it, but I don't know if that meant he actually charged sales tax or if he charged what he paid as a reimbursement. I let the accountant tell me which way to go.
kngelv
Well-known member
Too busy. I have this new garage to wire, insulate etc etc. I don’t do side work either. Not worth the hassle when I can just work overtime. Send me a PM and I can hook you up with a guy who lives in Westland which is next door to you. He’s very good and reasonable on pricing.
James
Jim greengo
Well-known member
I always say that the materials on my truck or van are for my conveniance,not the customers.
It's my money ******* in inventory,nobody else's. So I charge what I want for my stuff.
If they don't like that I can charge them by the hr to go get the materials from a supply house for them.
reader2580
Well-known member
The same guy who charges $160 for a capacitor will ask the homeowner if they have batteries for a thermostat so he doesn't have to charge them $5 per battery for batteries off of his van.
Warn him....the guy is a cheapskate and he only has 4 hours to git er done. Better yet, send him a link to this thread.
dave*99
Well-known member
Might ask for 220 instead of 240 if it’s cheaper.
purplezr2
Well-known member
OP what is the outcome here?
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
Do those Chi Knees Flea Bay fuses come with a homeowners fire insurance policy?Probably bought a bozo-size pack of NOS fuses from ebay. (Screw all those lazy-*** sparkies. I'll change fuses til I die.)
Last edited:
No but they have a C3 approval rating (Chinese Commodity ****) which means export to those gullible.Do those Chi Knees Flea Bay fuses come with a homeowners fire insurance policy?