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Split System Outdoor Unit Installed Inside????

kitdoctor

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What do forum members think about this approach?

In my shed build I'm proposing to mount two split system outdoor units inside. When I've searched the web for recommendations on this, the general advice is not to do it but there must be circumstances (???) where really it's no different to mounting them outside because the indoor space is so large that heat dissipation (one of the usual objections) is not a problem. The issue of disposing of condensate has been dealt with.

I'm doing it for two reasons, primarily aesthetics, to maintain a clean looking exterior and to keep the units out of the weather.

Below is a model of the shed. In the south-east corner (LHS) there's an accommodation module over two levels and in the north-west corner there's a ground level workshop with a storage room on the second level. It's the living room/kitchenette of lower level of the accommodation module and the workshop that will be air-conditioned. The construction technique is a mixture of steel portal framing and light-weight steel stud framing for the buildings within the larger buiding.

The whole shed is insulated. The entire roof is insulated with foil bubble insulation with an R0.21 (metric rating) value. This material also provides a thermal break between the metal corrugated cladding and steel frame, as well as having some insulation benefit. This has also been used on the walls of the shed in the area that will not be air-conditioned.

The workshop etc. have R5.0 rated glass fibre insulation batts in the ceiling spaces and suspended floors. The walls, including those that face inwards to the shed have R2.7 batts. A high density foam strip R0.65 acts as the thermal break between cladding (i.e. exterior metal corrugated cladding and timber weatherboards used inside) and stud wall framing.

If I subtract the volume occupied by the accommodation module and workshop/storage room from the shed's total volume, the volume of the working space of the shed that is not conditioned is 1735 cu m (61600 cu ft). The volume of the workshop is 79 cu m (2790 cu ft) and the volume of the living room/kitchenette is 93 cu m (3280 cu ft). So, in terms of relative volume, the ratio of the not conditioned space to conditioned space is about 10. Is this calculation useful?

In the summer I can open the two vehicle access doors which have a clear opening of 3.6 m (12') wide by 4.2 m (14') high. In the winter, I'd keep them closed.

I've done some analysis and the air-conditioner usage might be 20 days in summer and 30 days in winter. This would of course not be running the systems for 24 hours per day.

Thoughts on this?





SGI_8725 Shed 3D Model.jpg
 
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Snapped-off

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Part of the shed will be unconditioned and that's where you're putting the condensers? I'd just wonder how well they'll reject heat inside on a hot day.
 

dcg9381

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Physics. AC works by transferring heat. Put units indoors and you'll transfer heat indoors. Will that work? Sure, it's just now you've got heat in a building and need to remove it. An isolated uninsulated section with good air flow, absolutely this will work... But you're literally taking heat from one section and putting it into another. I would definitely have an inlet and exhaust fan.

I hear you have a plan for the condensate. On my shop, it's very much a steady stream from 48K worth of HVAC.

I've thought about doing this in cases where the tax max suddenly jumps the assessment 3x as soon as you add HVAC. But I've managed to get by using bushes instead...
 

American Locomotive

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Your goal is to simply condition the boxes in the corners of the structure, correct? I think what are you wanting to do will work given the quite large area differences. There are plenty of situations where I've seen an office inside a factory with a window air conditioner venting into the factory space. Don't really see how it's any different.
 

fitter30

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Will have to have fan/ fans bring in outside air and ducted exhaust from the condensers. Doesn't matter what size unit there is more heat expelled than cooling the air. What ever the btu's the units are add for heat for the fan motor and heat of compression from the compressor. Why not put them on the ground or roof on the back side of building with fencing around them. Have put units in a condition space but their load was considered.
 
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kitdoctor

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Your goal is to simply condition the boxes in the corners of the structure, correct? I think what are you wanting to do will work given the quite large area differences.
@American Locomotive yes, just the space at ground level and with the accommodation module not even the bathroom and staircase that leads to the upper level. With the other box, it's just the ground level workshop.

There are plenty of situations where I've seen an office inside a factory with a window air conditioner venting into the factory space. Don't really see how it's any different.
It's essentially the same type of scenario. I don't think what I've proposed is all that uncommon.
 

rlitman

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... there must be circumstances (???) where really it's no different to mounting them outside because the indoor space is so large that heat dissipation (one of the usual objections) is not a problem...
Can you park the Goodyear blimp in your shed without a problem? Is you shed so large it has it's own weather systems that develop indoors? If so, that MIGHT be big enough to try this, but it still might affect the unit's performance, leading to premature failure.
 

PoorUB

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As long as you open the overhead doors when the units are running I don't see an issue.
Years ago, when inverter units first came out they would not work in severe cold. The sensors on the outdoor unit would shut itself off in cold weather. We installed mini splits in small server rooms that needed cooling in the winter so the outdoor units got installed indoors often. Warehouses, mechanics shops, even above suspended ceilings when the main HVAC unit had wild return another ceiling.
 
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The Metric System

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There are really two parts to this question:
  • Will the units function indoors? Generally, yes. As long as they have enough flow of air that is within their temperature spec the units won't care whether they are inside or outside. Make sure there aren't adjacent operations that might damage them or block the coils, etc but otherwise this should be fine. Remember that they are allowed to sweat a bit because they are intended to be outdoors, so set them in a drip pan or similar if you don't want water on the floor.
  • Will the units make the indoor space uncomfortable? Maybe. They will be rejecting a significant amount of heat into the space and can be very noisy up-close. In an enclosed building the noise might be a problem depending on what else you have going on nearby. You can estimate the heat output by checking the unit's Coefficient of Performance (COP) spec, it tells you how much waste energy is rejected through the condenser per unit of useful cooling. For example, if you are getting 20,000 BTU of cooling and the unit has a COP of 4 the actual heat load in your indoor space will be ~25,000 BTU.
I have seen this done, it is entirely feasible as long as you're realistic about the constraints and tradeoffs.

Consider installing an interlock switch on the roll-up door that will prevent the condensing unit from running if the doors are closed.
 

karoc

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It’s really nothing new, I work on split systems where condenser is mounted above tile ceiling in multi floor office bldgs. The discharge air was pipe to outdoors, air above ceiling was the return for that floor which was the intake for condenser. These units Libert were design for this.
One of rules of thumb is the discharge air of condenser should/will be 30* higher than airs intake if charge correctly. I’ve work on few systems where normal residential system was installed like you’re talking about due to scrapers stealing condensers. Problem is they run hotter, even with high ceiling, as others said you still will need some kind of air intake. If it was me, I would make sure condensers have high pressure switches on them for protection, say at 395psi. Here in Tx on roof top systems that was cutout for high pressure. Have you thought about just privacy fence with pickets staggered?
 
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kitdoctor

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I have seen this done, it is entirely feasible as long as you're realistic about the constraints and tradeoffs.
@The Metric System, it's good to see a considered response.

The warm air generated when cooling (and cold air when warming) and outdoor unit noise won't cause me discomfort, as I'll be in the enclosed workshop escaping from the conditions in the main shed. There will be the indoor unit noise 28 dBA/29dBa for the 5 kW and 6 kW unit respectively but that is less than the noise from whispering.
 

KenC

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IF, big if, the heat removed from the cooled area increases the temp in the open area, the difference in temps will reduce the efficiency of the unit. Probably and insignificant amount, but under the right circumstances it may cause an increase in power consumed. The wider the temp difference between the air and refrigerant in the condenser the better.
 

dcg9381

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IF, big if, the heat removed from the cooled area increases the temp in the open area, the difference in temps will reduce the efficiency of the unit
Pretty much the same for the design of every HVAC system in my state. They put the air handler in the attic. Which is the hottest part of the (traditionally insulated) home and a terrible design choice. Will it work? Absolutely. But I'd design to move that heat.

Ductless units I have are very quiet...
 

KenC

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Pretty much the same for the design of every HVAC system in my state. They put the air handler in the attic. Which is the hottest part of the (traditionally insulated) home and a terrible design choice. Will it work? Absolutely. But I'd design to move that heat.

Ductless units I have are very quiet...
But he's not talking about the air handler, the condenser. I sure hope nobody is putting those in the attic!
 
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