Spray foam insulation

[hpw]

someone mentioned diy......

DIY Spray Foam Insulation - Poor Man's Spray Foam

kits
http://www.tigerfoam.com/

there is a distributor in Chicago that sells kits also, but can't remember the name

 

[MDSPHOTO]

It was really worth the investment the attic areas do not vary from the heated rooms below them by more than a few degrees. One area we really notice it is in the bedroom where we historically put a blanket and/or a winter comforter on the bed. This year we have kept the summer comforter on the bed and when it was 3 degrees here on Monday we were still very warm. I disagree with the post that stated critters don't like it as we have found just the opposite. We have grey & flying squirrels that have chewed tunnels through some of the thickest areas of the foam to get into our attic.

 

[Dragster Racer]

I always thought it might be nice (not thinking through it at all) to do a "quick" go around the "seams" with spray foam. Tighten everything up, but at a lower cost do the remaining cavity with fiberglass or similar. Not sure it would be worth the cost/effort...

I can't see how a person could go wrong with that method. Best of both worlds like the guy on the video showed.

 

[kj_mustang]

My pole barn build was just spray foamed. 2" closed cell over everything and then 6" open cell over that on the roof.

 

[Joe G.]

My pole barn build was just spray foamed. 2" closed cell over everything and then 6" open cell over that on the roof.

Looks good.

Share any details? See in your build thread it's 32x52x16.

How long did it take them?

Approx cost?

 

[yeldogt]

I would be surprised if you ever found someone who lived in a foam building and did not like it ... the difference is that noticeable. The utility savings can be substantial as well as savings from smaller HVAC equipment required... the big item is comfort.

You can really feel the difference when remodeling a house. I put on an addition and everyone and I do mean everyone was amazed that it was more comfortable in the addition than the main house after the foam was installed and no HVAC was in the addition .. just the overflow from the main structure. The same occurred when I upgraded another area of the house and spray foam was added.

Spray foam houses benefit from proper ventilation -- and they must have proper heat/ cool loads done ... especially for A/C in humid climates. Oversizing HVAC equipment is very common with normally insulated houses... and more so with foam ... you want to make sure the A/C is not short cycling in a foamed house.

You can mix foam/ batt as a way to cut costs.... I did a layer of foam and then fiberglass fill on a large outbuilding and it has worked flawlessly. You must use enough closed cell foam to insure that the inside of the foam will not fall lower than the dew point ... this thickness will be different depending on the local climate. Remember, walls dry from inside and outside -- don't use plastic. Proper humidity control helps in the summer.

 

[kj_mustang]

Looks good.

Share any details? See in your build thread it's 32x52x16.

How long did it take them?

Approx cost?

Details? Make sure all your outside electric boxes are installed and tape over them on the outside to keep foam from coming out around them. Foam gets on your wall framing so I think it is better to do all electric and plumbing work first. Make sure the contractor covers with plastic everything you don't want foam on.

Contractor had to wait on warm weather to spray so he worked parts of about 5-6 different days to complete. He was by himself several of those days and had 1 helper on a couple days.

Cost is high. I got three quotes and his was the cheapest. This was a lot of foam, roughly 4500 sq. feet. $9,200

 

[JCfreak]

I've used spray foam extensively since 2010. Other than the initials cost, there are very few drawbacks. It will pay for itself if you heat and cool the space. ROI varies with size, climate and usage.

If you have smells inside a foam sprayed building, it's gonna take air flow to remove it.

I pay $1.00 per inch of closed cell. $1.50 for 5", $1.00-$1.25 for 3" of open cell.

Use Closed cell if you are not going to condition the space and open if you are.

Critters like this stuff. It works as good for their homes and is does for ours.

Closed is more efficient and costly. It will not reveal a leak. Is a 100% vapor barrier and will prevent steel from sweating.

I spray all exposed foam is shops with Glidden semigloss white from Lowes. Cheap and gloss finish.

I prefer open cell as I condition all my buildings. It's a little cheaper and is a little easier to cut. If you need to add an outlet or piping.

Closed cell we spray at 3" on roof, 2" walls and floors.
Open cell we spray at 5" on roof, 3" walls and floors.

Fiberglass/vinyl is useless in the south. Once the steel sweats, the glass is saturated and is now a thermal bridge. Then the vinyl holds more and more water till you get a drip right where you need to work.

I would never tell someone this is a DIY project. I have looked at purchasing a rig. As a builder, its just not worth it. Too many bad things can happen and none are cheap. I've used the 3M frothpacks. I'll just pay a pro to do a pro job. Just MHO.

 

[panhandle461]

Thinking hard about this option for our attic. Subscribed.

 

[plow]

I pay $1.00 per inch of closed cell. $1.50 for 5", $1.00-$1.25 for 3" of open cell.



Closed is more efficient and costly. It will not reveal a leak. Is a 100% vapor barrier and will prevent steel from sweating.



Fiberglass/vinyl is useless in the south. Once the steel sweats, the glass is saturated and is now a thermal bridge. Then the vinyl holds more and more water till you get a drip right where you need to work.

Cool. Deep south is where I'm from (La.). This is the first "testimonial" I've heard yet that applies to me.


1.00 per inch........Just sos I'm straight, That's per Ft2?

It wont reveal a leak........Will it plug one?

The vinyl insulation you're talking about, Is that the typical white shop builder type that I see in alot of shops?

Was thinking about pricing this stuff for a future build (54'x37'). Do you
know someone in my area (Shreveport)?

 

[sands35]

I guess sealing up air leaks is good. Caulk around exterior outlets or pierces, caulk or tape over gaps in the sheeting, spray foam around window and doors, etc.

But over sealing the envelope is bad. Closed cell foam sprayed everywhere will do this. Somehow humidity and condensation need to be controlled. ERVs or other methods to change out air and control humidity. Yeah, it's a garage with big doors, etc. but still.

Asphalt shingles also don't like "hot roofs". Warranties may be voided if there isn't an air gap under the roof sheeting. So putting foam directly on the bottom side of a asphalt roof is bad without a way to circulate ambient air and remove hot air.

 

[kj_mustang]

But over sealing the envelope is bad. Closed cell foam sprayed everywhere will do this. Somehow humidity and condensation need to be controlled. ERVs or other methods to change out air and control humidity. Yeah, it's a garage with big doors, etc. but still.

Asphalt shingles also don't like "hot roofs". Warranties may be voided if there isn't an air gap under the roof sheeting. So putting foam directly on the bottom side of a asphalt roof is bad without a way to circulate ambient air and remove hot air.

The insulation, ventilation, and HVAC all need to be planned together. My spray foamed barn has a non-vented attic and all the space, attic and living area, will be conditioned.

 

[Autorotica]

Asphalt shingles also don't like "hot roofs". Warranties may be voided if there isn't an air gap under the roof sheeting. So putting foam directly on the bottom side of a asphalt roof is bad without a way to circulate ambient air and remove hot air.

Question:

I am looking at having spray foam insulation installed in an attic space that we will be converting into a large walk-in closet. My concern is what effect will the foam have on my asphalt shingles? I've been told it will be no problem and I've been told it will shorten the life of my shingles due to the extra heat.

Answer
SprayFoam.com

I'm assuming that you are installing the spray polyurethane foam to the underside of the roof deck. The concern here is with an unvented attic where insulation is installed directly under the roof deck, the shingles may degrade rapidly due to the increased heat caused by the insulation. This concern is over exaggerated. There are a couple excellent papers and presentations written by Building Science Corporation (www.buildingscience.com) that cover their research regarding shingle life in unvented attics. They conclude that in Las Vegas, one of the hottest locations in the US, the average roof deck temperature difference between a unvented attic and a vented attic is 17 F. This is from research that they conducted on actual homes. This difference would only be less in the rest of the country. They have also determined that asphalt shingles installed over VENTED roof decks in hot-dry climates are generally warmer than the same shingles installed over UNVENTED shingles in a hot-humid climate like Orlando. Finally, the difference in color from white and to black creates a larger temperature difference than unvented versus vented roof decks. The argument for these points is that shingle manufacturers do not have separate warranties for different climate zones or different shingle colors. The small increase in shingle temperature due to vented versus unvented is insignificant compared to other factors.

http://sprayfoam.com/aeps/aeitem.cfm?aeid=1201

 

[volleyball]

I had my attic done after I installed ductwork throughout. The fiberglass got ruined and it is not a useable space for living or storing.
I had 4" sprayed as it was 2 passes. I unvented my very well vented attic and made the space conditioned.
The closed cell is a vapor and moisture barrier so there is no condensation on it. I made sure the trusses as well as the roof deck was done. You want to have a continuous barrier.
I do have a metal roof so I am not worried about leaks but even if it did and rotted a bit of decking, so what? The foam will keep it from leaking. And when you saw a section of roofing missing, it isn't hard to replace some decking.
I am on my 3rd winter and it has been great. It qualified for the 30 % tax credit so the cost difference has paid for itself already.
I talked to the iso group about going closed cell as a lot of people said don't do it because of leaks. I don't buy that. They agreed.
For those with an old shingled roof, I would do hi density panels on top of the deck. If your attic is unvented, it will add insulation. Insulation that works in summer as well as winter. Some forget that. Even if you leave the doors open, you still benefit. My attic space is house temp even on the hottest or coldest days.
The foam should be behind a fire rated material. I got away without as it is legal because my attic is not used. The paint is very expensive to cover it. I don't think any old paint will work.
And when I unvented my attic, I left myself an out. I cut up some foam boards to make plugs for the soffits so that the vents did not get plugged as I have 2' overhangs. The installer loved them and stole the idea. It was the only part of the job he liked.

Anyone use the organic foams? I was thinking they might be less toxic in case of fire.

 

[sands35]

Question:

I am looking at having spray foam insulation installed in an attic space that we will be converting into a large walk-in closet. My concern is what effect will the foam have on my asphalt shingles? I've been told it will be no problem and I've been told it will shorten the life of my shingles due to the extra heat.

Answer
SprayFoam.com

I'm assuming that you are installing the spray polyurethane foam to the underside of the roof deck. +++trim++++The argument for these points is that shingle manufacturers do not have separate warranties for different climate zones or different shingle colors. The small increase in shingle temperature due to vented versus unvented is insignificant compared to other factors.

http://sprayfoam.com/aeps/aeitem.cfm?aeid=1201

Of course the spray foam people are going to tell you that. Their explanation doesn't have much data in it.

All I'll say is that the shingle warranty is underwritten by the shingle people, not the foam people. If you get a shingle failures, who are you going to call?

I have a "hot" roof over an addition put in by the PO and the rest of the house is ventilated attic. 10 years old and the hot roof is showing signs of deterioration and the ventilated roof is not.

I have heard of plenty of cases where spray foam was used and then water problems where created 5-10 years later due to lack of ventilation.

Slapping up spray foam and not thinking about the rest of the HVAC system is silly. Humidity control, air change, heat/cold recovery, etc. all needs to be considered.

 

[volleyball]

So you have foam in the addition? Not likely if it is 10 years old. The vapor/moisture barrier is key. Not that long ago, a "hot" roof was that. Now it no longer is.

 

[Randy in Maine]

I don't know of anyone who has successfully filed a claim against a shingle company for anything and actually gotten any money back. Ever.

You could drive a Mack truck through that warranty without slowing down.

 

[yeldogt]

Good luck getting any warranty claim on shingles .. I agree with Randy.

Like most building products used throughout the country -- some work better than others depending on the climate.

Closed cell foam is a fantastic product and can't be beat in cold or overly humid climates - but the building still has to be built correctly .. and provided with ventilation.

Hot roofs only last 10 years -- most warranties are for 5 .. and that is with re-coating and they get very hot ... they are darker then any shingle -- even coated white they only last a bit longer.

 

[chads2slow]

I rented a rig to DIY on my home and wife's garage. It was $850 for the rent of the spray rig he drove it to my house set it up showed my how to do it and then whent in to his little office in the trailer and checked on me about once an hour. I also bought the foam off of him to. One inch of closed cell then around three inches of open on top of that. I sprayed a 40x60 building for around 6500

 

[chads2slow]

I also put in a whole house air exchanger that runs about 20 mins an hour but also doubles as bathroom ventilation with he push of a button that is installed in all the bathrooms

 

[JCfreak]

Cool. Deep south is where I'm from (La.). This is the first "testimonial" I've heard yet that applies to me.


1.00 per inch........Just sos I'm straight, That's per Ft2?

It wont reveal a leak........Will it plug one?

The vinyl insulation you're talking about, Is that the typical white shop builder type that I see in alot of shops?

Was thinking about pricing this stuff for a future build (54'x37'). Do you
know someone in my area (Shreveport)?

Really its board ft=12"x12"x1".
Yes, that's the vinyl. I can show you how nasty it is at a shop in Leesville, La.

Call Jody at Southwest Insulators 337-945-4178. Tell him Don sent you. He's a great, honest guy. He's a straight shooter that will do the job right.

 

[backintheday]

I had 1" of closed cell ( really more like 1.5 - 2" ) sprayed in my house then R13 batts over that. Had 60 mph gusts 2 nights ago, didn't worry a bit about air leaks or noise. Not only does it air lock the house but it really quits down the wind noise and glues the structure together. Like others are saying get you electrical done first and seal off the outside boxes. I paid $1 a sq ft per inch of foam. In my opinion it's the only way to go. I heat my house with a wood stove and in wall electric heaters for back up. When I build my shop it will be with SIPs, a big part of that dissension is because of the foam.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

Hey BJ42Lx, I know where you live. Don't you love listening to Jim Salmon? I'm having his buddy Mike do my small barn at the end of April.



.

 

[zcar751]

Just had my ceiling done in my shop. It's a 24x40 metal building. It took the crew two hour to do the job. You need to cover every thing because the over spray goes everywhere. It really sealed up the roof and reduce the noise level when it rains.

 

[dirttracker18]

I went through this with good results on my attic area in a catherdral ceiling. You can check out the post, info and pictures in the link below

MY ATTIC SPRAY FOAM THREAD

I do not have hard heating cost for you but we dropped about $800 a year in heating costs (propane forced air) and inproved our air leak test numbers by almost 20%. In addition rainfall on the metal roof is much quieter.

I am now looking to move ahead with the next stage which will include more spray foam.

Much like my attic space my walls were not vapor barrier well and have many leaks. In addition, due to the previous leaking roof, I am certain I have wet insulation in many places. Finally my house was built with 2X4 framing and was balloon framed (at least thats what its called around here). This means you stand up the walls on the basement block wall and then build the floor inside it.

Unfortunately when the builder did this, he did not install vapor barrier on the wall and then build the floor. This means the section of wall that goes below my floor level has no vapor barrier.

The other issue is that fact that we will be putting additions out both sides of the house in the next 5-8 years depending on funding.

So we will be spray foaming the front and back of the house with 3" of closed cell foam. On the sides we will be spray foaming the bottom foot to deal with the balloon framing issue there and using batts (new ones) on the rest, taping up the vapor barrier issues prior. I am then considering putting up 1" of foam board on the outside sides of the house to eliminate thermal bridging there and help out our heating bills until the addition is done.

Any thoughts here?

 

[kj_mustang]

Update on my spray foamed building, I worked several days in my barn over the holiday weekend and I was out there again last evening. It has been very sunny with little cloud cover since Friday. It was milder temperatures on Friday, Saturday and Sunday only getting up to high 70's. Monday and Tuesday were both in the mid 80's. My building was totally closed up that entire time and it has no shade and five windows that face south. Thermostat inside on the second floor read 71 on Friday, Saturday and Sunday afternoons with no AC running. When I went there Tuesday evening, thermostat read 74. This place will be cost nothing to cool.

 

[Dave Maxwell]

Was just quoted 8,000 to do my 42x72x16 pole building. Roof wont be part of it. He said since closed cell is tight, that it is considered r value of 10 per inch. Is this correct? He said just put two Inches in and be done.

 

[kj_mustang]

Everything I have ever read says closed cell is rated at R6 - R7 per inch. But, it out performs fiberglass with the same rating because it blocks all air flow and moisture. 2 inches is a good barrier if done correctly.

 

[Dave Maxwell]

Is the extra inch worth it. Plan to put bat in on top of it. Got a discount on the second inch so it isn't 4,000 per inch

 

[kj_mustang]

Do a minimum of 2 inches to achieve the moisture block.

 

[Dave Maxwell]

Will I need batts after

 

[Dave Maxwell]

Or is it a waste of money

 

[kj_mustang]

I would say it depends on your climate, how many hours a day you plan on conditioning the building, and how long you plan on owning the building to determine if more insulation is worth it.

 

[Dave Maxwell]

Heat will be on all winter for most part. Be in it daily.

 

[yeldogt]

You want to have the foam thick enough so the interior surface of the foam will never get cold enough for water vapor in the air to condense on the surface in the winter. This is true with any insulation and any climate. It is called the dew point.

Closed cell foam is doing two things - sealing the building and then providing insulation. A very thin layer of the closed foam will proved the sealing -- but you must get the foam thick enough for the dew point protection.

After the initial foam -- then you need to see what your local code requires the R value to be.

The newest code has a higher R value -- and doing it all in foam is overkill in some situations. I did an addition with a bit over 2" in the walls and bit over 3 in the ceilings .. and used batts to fill in the rest to keep the inspector happy.

Fiberglass insulation does not air seal - so the room moisture will move into the walls through any gaps ......and condense on the cold sheathing in a typical build. When you add the spray foam you eliminate the gaps and the air infiltration is all but eliminated - but you still need it thick enough for the dew point.

On my new build I'm doing all foam -- but I may do the foam/ batt on my studio rebuild deepening on the cost.

 

[volleyball]

You don't need the same R value foam as batts or blown in to get the same insulation value. Just like it is better insulated to go with 2 x 4 walls with foam panels on the outside than to go with 2 x 6 with batts in between.

 

[Dave Maxwell]

Just want to seal the building up and have good insulation before I put up interior

 

[yeldogt]

But you do need to get the "R" value if you have inspections and live in a state that requires insulation inspections. The basic foam for dew point will not get you the R required in my area.

The code does not differentiate. Three inches of foam is going to outperform any amount of fiberglass ... But ... the code is the code.

You can't just foam to seal the building -- if the foam is too thin -- you will get moisture in the wall if you are in a cold climate.

In a closed dwelling -- managing the interior air is easy. Positive controlled flow with conditioned air ...coupled with -- proper exhaust for the baths - range.

With a garage it can be a bit more of a challenge because of the doors - opening the doors on a humid day allows a lot of moist air that becomes trapped inside.

 

[kj_mustang]

If you are going to be using the building daily and leaving the heat on, then I would do 2" of closed cell and then Fiberglass batts to meet the residential code R value required for your area.

 

[yeldogt]

The spray foam guy should be able to show you what you need to use -- I needed a bit over 2". Talk to a few .. and see the different answers.