It does, but it's not the same it used to be. Previously Snap On had unlimited lifetime warranty. Now they request the receipt/proof that you bought it (I think that owners father buying the tool qualifies too).
Spreading the Bonney affliction!
- Thread starter bonneyman
- Start date
Mikeske
Well-known member
And only to the original owner
four.cycle
Well-known member
^ as it should be.
Mikeske
Well-known member
Yeah but when you had a 1/2" ratchet you bought new in 1984 and need a rebuild kit and the receipt is long gone from 4 or so moves across the country they refused to honor the warranty I was not a happy camper. I finally contacted corporate office via a email and they argued for several months before honoring the "lifetime" warranty. I do have a friend that has been a mechanic for the past 40 years and I could of given him the ratchet and had the dealer rebuild it but it was the principal of me being the original owner but finding a receipt from 39 years ago well that is going to be impossible.
Galvonzo
Well-known member
Let’s be honest now. I’d rather have these than a set of flank drive wrenches. Who’s with me?
Mikeske
Well-known member
Oh I have the same wrench set in the metric and SAE. Why have a snap in copy when I have the original
Maybe I’m not following what you’re saying…wasn’t this discussed (with less detail/evidence) in posts 142, 306, 309? The general fact that Snap-on acquired the right to the Bonney brand as far as tools sometime between 1995 and 2001 has been in my notes since I discovered this thread.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
You're following fine, LS. I missed that in my own due diligence. Not sure how. Credit to @rickhigginshtbr, @bob15, and @twertsy from back in the year 2016! (Speaking of rick, I see he hasn't been here since 2021!)
Not me. Not sure how it eluded me. Or I had forgotten! Either way, it seemed news to me when I was digging. Thanks for letting me know it's been discussed prior.
I understood Mike to mean only that Flank Drive came out prior to the 1996 acquisition, not earlier than Loc-Rite. (Otherwise SO could not have lost the infringement case.)
Maybe NOT irrelevant - Miller Manufacturing acquired Bonney in 1953, not so? Could these fittings designs (if not the trademarks) have originated with Miller prior to acquiring Bonney?
Did you find a similar, prior transfer from Bonney to Miller, maybe between 1952 and 1954?TM, for a Wobble Drive Extension that Bonney Forge & Tool Works registered in 1952, was the key to everything. It opened up the entire sequence of re-assignments inside the Trademark Status and Document Retrieval database that the USPTO uses to keep track of TM ownership. When companies are bought and sold, everything conveys, including TM's!
Here is Bonney's original TM from 1952.
Here is the record in USPTO TSDR of the TM being conveyed from Bonney to Kelsey-Hayes in 1965.
1956 Miller catalog p5 has an illustration of the Allentown facility.
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1951 Miller catalog, presumably before Bonney buyout.
Thanks to Mark Stansbury for uploading both of those.
Thanks to Mark Stansbury for uploading both of those.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
No, Miller wasn't in the assignments chain, oddly. It could be a corporate structure distinction, where Bonney retained them at subsidiary like level. I'm on the road today. I'll check later tonight.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I think I'm probably still missing the point, LS. Flank Drive came out in 1967, well before the acquisition of Cooper by Snap-on in 1996. I don't know anything about any infringement case brought by Triangle against Snap-on prior to 1993. Do you or @Mikeske have a case number? Or any record of it? When did it happen?
I can't find any mention of Miller Manufacturing in any of the USPTO conveyance records of any Bonney trademarks. First assignment is Bonney to Kelsey-Hayes in 1965, no assignments prior to that.
Mikeske
Well-known member
I tried to find it for years on the infringement case against Snap-on. I wondered for years or if it was decided by Snap-on to pay a royalty and not go to trial (negotiated settlement) I heard about this prior to 1983 when I bought my complete mechanic set of Bonney.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
But without any public record, the whole story could be apocryphal, Mike. Frankly, I'm not sure what the infringement would be. Snap-on's patent was granted and they used a different name. It's not as if Kavalar's patent for a wrench with lobes that grip on the flats rather than corners of a fastener, for proper torque, and to prevent rounding, was the first of its kind. He cited prior art as well.
Raineman said, “Locrite became Flank Drive”
He means Snap-on simply rebranded Loc-Rite after acquiring it.
Mikeske said, “Flank Drive actually came out a few years prior”
He means Snap-on already had Flank Drive before acquiring Loc-Rite.
Private Lugnutz said, “Loc-Rite (1964) came out earlier”
This misinterprets Mikeske as if he’s making an assertion that Flank Drive came out prior to Loc-Rite. He’s not making that assertion.
LesserSon said, “I understood Mike to mean only that Flank Drive came out prior to the 1996 acquisition, not earlier than Loc-Rite. (Otherwise SO could not have lost the infringement case.)”
I know nothing about the lawsuit. My parenthetical about the lawsuit is just the internal logic of why Mikeske knows that Loc-Rite came first, so didn’t need a correction.
He means Snap-on simply rebranded Loc-Rite after acquiring it.
Mikeske said, “Flank Drive actually came out a few years prior”
He means Snap-on already had Flank Drive before acquiring Loc-Rite.
Private Lugnutz said, “Loc-Rite (1964) came out earlier”
This misinterprets Mikeske as if he’s making an assertion that Flank Drive came out prior to Loc-Rite. He’s not making that assertion.
LesserSon said, “I understood Mike to mean only that Flank Drive came out prior to the 1996 acquisition, not earlier than Loc-Rite. (Otherwise SO could not have lost the infringement case.)”
I know nothing about the lawsuit. My parenthetical about the lawsuit is just the internal logic of why Mikeske knows that Loc-Rite came first, so didn’t need a correction.
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Mikeske
Well-known member
Sums it best but there apparently is NO public record of ANY lawsuit by Kelsey-Hayes, Bonney, Utica, or Triangle Corp against Snap-on. I researched it and cannot find anything on any lawsuit so you have to assume that possibly Snap-on most likely settled the matter out of court and possibly was paying a royalty to Kelsey-Hayes, Triangle Corp and when Cooper sold the patient to Snap-on it was quietly taken care of.
I actually meant that Bonney, Triangle, Utica, Kelsey Hayes Loc-rite was made prior to the Snap-on Flank Drive and that they might of done a negotiated settlement
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
What matter, Mike?! Nobody has any reason to make any such assumption about Snap-on paying any royalties to K-H or Triangle. That would only be based on the premise that Snap-on Flank Drive ripped off K-H Loc-Rite and they were in some kind of legal jeopardy because of it. The problem is the public record does not support anything like that. Snap-on was granted a patent in 1966, they started using the patent on wrenches and sockets in 1967, they marketed the production under the name "Flank Drive", which they TM'ed in 1980, all long before they acquired Cooper in 1996, which acquired Triangle in 1993. All this talk of lawsuits or royalties and negotiated settlements is apocryphal, perpetuating the premise without proof.
Mikeske
Well-known member
Patient granted 3/24/1964 for Loc-Rite which is prior the patient for Flank Drive
3baygarage
Well-known member
Well as it turns out, we can't ask the Father of Flank Drive himself. Gene Olson, Flank Drive inventor and engineer passed on Thanksgiving morning, Nov. 23, 2023. 
https://memorials.prokofuneralhome.com/gene-olson/5331514/
https://memorials.prokofuneralhome.com/gene-olson/5331514/
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I am well aware of when the patent (Kavalar) marketed and trademarked by Kelsey-Hayes as "Loc-Rite" was granted, and when the patent (Knudsen, et al) marketed and trademarked by Snap-on as "Flank Drive" was granted, Mike. Did you see my chart (post #5,355, previous page)? Did you follow the link I provided in the same post to my study on the evolution of off-radius wrenches, where I discuss all this in detail? Did you see my post where I stated that Knudsen et al (assignors for Snap-on) actually cited Kavalar's patent (assignor for Kelsey-Hayes) as prior art in their patent application? There was no fast one being pulled here. They literally pointed out Kavalar's design - as well as a few others - in illustrating their own. You and everyone else who is stuck on this 'Flank Drive ripped off Loc-Rite' story is apparently stuck on it so hard that you seem to ignore the fact that the US Patent and Trademark Office was also well aware of the Loc-Rite patent! Yes, the Loc-Rite patent came first. But the Flank Drive patent was granted! The USPTO determined that the Flank Drive design was novel (different, unique, i.e. not a copy), hence the granting of a patent to Snap-on for it. You can examine the patents yourself. Trust me when I say the distinction goes to the number of lobes and their geometry, which is not the same as Kavalar, whose design was not the same as Petit or Diebold, which were patents granted before his, and which he cited as prior art in his patent application.
Again, as far as I know, no legal action was ever taken by K-H or Triangle against Snap-on and all this talk of an infringement suit or royalties etc is just part of this enormous apocryphal story that has been perpetuated over the years based on amateur eyeballing, brand affections (and brand animus!), and the false premise that Flank Drive "ripped off" the Loc-Rite design. Again, according to the US Patent and Trademark Office - the government entity directly responsible for making that determination - it did not.
What would the K-H and Triangle case be? If anything, against the USPTO, not Snap-on. And what would ever compel Snap-on to pay royalties or settle anything with anyone when they had a patent and a trademark (first use in 1967) in their pocket?!
Ironically, if anyone had an infringement case, it might be Peugeot Freres, the company of French brothers also known for making cars! The name for their Surpans wrenches, with lobes instead of corners, invented in 1953, quite literally translates into English as On Flanks.
Interesting timing! Do we need an autopsy? Are we sure there wasn't some disgruntled Loc-Rite fan traipsing around the house on the Ring camera footage?
Seriously, RIP.
Olson was in the "et al" part of the "Knudsen, et al" attribution on the first Snap-on patent, and listed under Knudsen and Price. He was credited as primary assignor on many of the design improvements that followed.
Raineman
Well-known member
My statement was of my own opinion only that LocRite came before Flank Drive. If I am/was wrong, my bad. I am certainly not going to lose any sleep over it but its great to be edumacated. Thanks.
I have Bonney sets (that I believe have the LocRite design), and a set of Flank Drive Plus wrenches as well. I love both sets, and the nuts and bolts I turn with them don't have any arguments or disagreements about what design loosened or tightened them. (Unless they do that when I walk away).
Ultimately, no skin of my teeth. But as I just said, a lesson, cool.
Now, can anyone explain Bonney LocRite design (without being labeled with the LocRite logo) and the 4 sided MAC style open end? LOL.
I have Bonney sets (that I believe have the LocRite design), and a set of Flank Drive Plus wrenches as well. I love both sets, and the nuts and bolts I turn with them don't have any arguments or disagreements about what design loosened or tightened them. (Unless they do that when I walk away).
Ultimately, no skin of my teeth. But as I just said, a lesson, cool.
Now, can anyone explain Bonney LocRite design (without being labeled with the LocRite logo) and the 4 sided MAC style open end? LOL.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
You're not wrong about the sequence, Raineman. Loc-Rite was patented and first produced by K-H and its hand tool brands (Utica, Bonney, etc) in 1964/5; Flank Drive was patented by Snap-on in 1966 and first produced in 1967.
The premise of the dispute and the misunderstandings and this whole story about fictional legal issues for Snap-on that has always accompanied discussion of these two brands, long before this tangent on this thread, on many other threads here on GJ, is that Flank-Drive is identical to Loc-Rite. Of course people who make that assumption and look at the sequence and think there has to be some issue for Snap-on. After all, Loc-Rite got there first, right? But the USPTO didn't see it that way. Snap-on claimed it was different and the USPTO agreed. It's that simple.
This...
...was misleading, though. Loc-Rite did not become Flank Drive, and was never re-branded as Flank Drive, either, as far as I know, not even in 1996 when Snap-on ended up buying Cooper, and with it, all the prior TM's, including the Bonney name and Loc-Rite. Flank Drive had already been a very successful line of tools for Snap-on for decades.
Nothing to apologize for. Definitely no teeth skin etc! Just a typical GJ can o' worms topic.
EDIT: I have no helpful info on no-logo Bonney Loc-Rite or MAC variants. I pretty much stopped studying off-radius wrench openings where the chart ends in the 70's.
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alinc100
Well-known member
My life story,my parents had so much hope. I didn't graduate HS until '85, now I may know the cause. LOL
Patrick Eubanks
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2023
- Messages
- 517
I don’t know if anyone has said this but Blackhawk, whose color is red offered this same box
Looks like I got a c1950 CC10 roller cabinet and 1949ish tool chest for $20 today. There is no original branding that I can see, so maybe it wasn’t Bonney. It did recent duty in a bicycle shop. Dunno if the Shimano logo will come off painlessly or not.
Happy anyway.
@Shelbylex suggested the same. I think it’s definitely possible, but there was no logo of any kind on it, aside from the Shimano one.
Excellent set!Let’s be honest now. I’d rather have these than a set of flank drive wrenches. Who’s with me?
Interesting chart. Thanks for posting it. I knew about Ratcho and Speed-hed but not the other early designs.EDIT: Oh, hell, here's a teaser. Why work? It's Friday. Read my study instead!
One thing for sure that it shows is the decades old search for off-corner engagement of fasteners. Even in the old days before high torque applications, rounding off of bolts must have happened enough that lots of folks were at work trying to solve the problem.
With Loc-Rite and Flank Drive, I think each tries to address the issues with different solutions. And each has their advantages and drawbacks. Loc-Rite is a simpler design, with its rounded lobes. Theoretically the rounded lobe only contacts the fastener at a single point, though in practice it doesn't actually work out that way. But it does tend to focus the wrenching force on a smaller area than does the Snap-On design. Flank Drive is a much more involved profile, with the corner area undercut to avoid contact and a larger flat surface at the precise angle to engage the fastener over a wider area. Thus dispersing the torque load. This design - plus their use of special alloy steels - allows Snap-On to make the walls of their box ends and sockets thinner. For some applications this provides the necessary clearance to allow usage. I've never had an access issue with my Bonney's, though I stopped working on cars regularly in the mid 80's. Engine compartments have gotten ALOT more cramped since then.
However, one issue I know of stems from dirty fasteners. I've read that caked on crud really messes with sockets and wrenches, and proper use dictates one clean fasteners before wrenching. (But who does that?) The Loc-Rite broaching on the Bonney seems to slough off excess dirt and grease easier, and the larger clearances of the valley "cavities" allows space to expel the built-up crud. With Flank Drive, those precision angles and larger flat surfaces aren't as good at allowing dirt to be pushed out, and thus it builds up on the wrenching surface. This focuses and concentrates more wrenching force on smaller areas, kinda defeating the goal of the profile design. Plus it puts more stress on the tool itself. You do a whole row of head bolts like this and you're overstressing and wearing the tool. Not knocking the design, just one of the consequences of it.
I never had it happen much on HVAC, though some jobs were buried in soil, grease, and all sorts of nasties.
I'm betting you guys who do line work on like diesels and such run across tons of gunked-up bolts and nuts.
But this is all just a talk - in the real world I'm wondering what the practical difference is? I have a few Snappy wrenches, and compared them side by side with the equivalent Bonney's some years ago. My old eyes can't see much of a difference at all. So there you go.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I'm not sure young eyes would do any better with those two wrenches. When were they made?
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
The chart accompanies a study, linked here, if you're interested in reading further and seeing other examples. I concentrated primarily on ratchet action, but learned quickly that the off-radius designs - intended to apply proper torque, not deform nuts, and work on already deformed nuts, were closely related in geometry.
Don't know. Those are older pictures that I just ran across in my pic files and thought a picture is worth a thousand words.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks.
Ricky Joe
Well-known member
.
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z28lsc
Well-known member
Ebay find. Bonney A702 1/2 drive. This beauty is 15" long and is in good condition.
