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Spreading the Bonney affliction!

LesserSon

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Those combos look good, UAIU!
With those tapered shanks, I think they resemble Williams combos, I guess of the same era. I think of them as “1st-generation” Bonaloy. All the ones I’ve found have date codes between 1944-1947. What’s the range on yours?
 
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Those combos look good, UAIU!
With those tapered shanks, I think they resemble Williams combos, I guess of the same era. I think of them as “1st-generation” Bonaloy. All the ones I’ve found have date codes between 1944-1947. What’s the range on yours?

Thanks LesserSon! I've been working on those for a while. Still need to find some of the larger ones.
The ones that are dated range from '44 to '47, but the #1163 looks to be LN dated, which would be '36... can that be right?
The #s 1164, 65, and 66 don't have date codes. They're chrome and marked Made In USA which would date them to the pre-war years. When did they start making the combos in 'Bonaloy'?

Here's a pic of the dates.
 

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LesserSon

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Looking closer, the 1160, 1161, and 1163 say USA, not Made In USA, 1946 or later. So I’d say the 1163 is 1950, not 1936. Bonaloy came out in 1938, but I’m vague if combos were its first use, maybe DBEs.
 
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Private Lugnutz

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Bonaloy came out in 1938, but I’m vague if combos were its first use, maybe DBEs.
I never had a reason to track down first use, but in 1941 the DBE and the combination ("TUTYPE") wrenches were BONALOY line. The DOE wrenches were not brought into the BONALOY line until after the war. They were only available in Zenel, the converted CV line (no CV composition or markings, 'BONNEY' moved to the largest jaw face), and the military 585- series.
 

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1950s is probably right for the LN dated wrench. That makes sense to me.

I picked up a few more Bonney pieces over the weekend. The KW dated 3/8" drive 'breaker' bar is pretty cool. The Loc-Rite line wrench combo is marked Kelsy-Hayes Tool Div. on the reverse side. 3/8" extension and 1/2" drive socket are triangle era.

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LesserSon

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Today’s Bonney haul. The S-adjustable was frozen, but tapping the roller pin out yielded a full takedown that will restore full smooth operation.
Edit - here it is with its brother. I think it is earlier. It has the 01Jun1915 patent date stamped on it, and instead of a round hanger hole, it is Bonney-shield-shaped. What a clever detail!
 

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davethorik

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You're gonna love the Loc-Rite sockets and wrenches. :thumbup:

I didn't realize until I got it, but I bought a Triangle Bonney used 1/2 drive deep well 6 pt socket in 1-1/8" off the bay for cheap. There is no 6 point Loc-Rite! At least this one isn't. I can only recall seeing it in 12 pt. I was a little bummed about it, but it does still work on 1-1/8" fasteners.
 
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bonneyman

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I didn't realize until I got it, but I bought a Triangle Bonney used 1/2 drive deep well 6 pt socket in 1-1/8" off the bay for cheap. There is no 6 point Loc-Rite! At least this one isn't. I can only recall seeing it in 12 pt. I was a little bummed about it, but it does still work on 1-1/8" fasteners.

That is correct - Loc-Rite is only on 12 point tools. But the 1/2" drive socket should be LR. :headscrat
 
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bonneyman

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1950s is probably right for the LN dated wrench. That makes sense to me.

I picked up a few more Bonney pieces over the weekend. The KW dated 3/8" drive 'breaker' bar is pretty cool. The Loc-Rite line wrench combo is marked Kelsy-Hayes Tool Div. on the reverse side. 3/8" extension and 1/2" drive socket are triangle era.

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Nice grouping!

I, too, have that 3/8" breaker bar (#T2 I believe) and looking for it's 1/2" drive brother (#4081).

I have box/flare combos that are marked other than Bonney. I don't know when or why.

Here's some DFE's sets branded differently. No differences that I can see other than branding.
 

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LesserSon

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This No21 DOE is interesting, because of what it does, and does not, have in the combination of stamped and forged-in elements.
Process revisions: The simple forged-in B-shield on the shank dates back to at least 1909. Sometime later, I think, the stamped BON[embedded-shield]NEY emblem was added to the face. Logically, the forged-in phrase MADE IN U.S.A. one sees on the shank of some examples preceded its replacement with the same phrase stamped on the face below the embedded shield, believed to have occurred around May 1925. (I think the forged-in USA without MADE IN, on this tiny example, resulted from the space constraint. But that should coincide with the loss of the Forged-in B-shield. Seems this is a transitional example, perhaps early 1925, except, it is also missing any date codes, which were forged-in elsewhere on the shank beginning in 1921.
Conclusion: The blank for this wrench was forged with the B-shield and USA not long before 1921, explaining why there is no date-code. Then the stamped MADE IN USA was added when the gullets were ground and the sizes stamped, sometime after May1925 (but before 1927, when they began stamping across-flats sizes). I think this example illustrates that the rather specific (month/year) manufacturing dates we often establish by date codes alone are somewhat misleading: an individual wrench could be finished years after the initial forging of the blank.
Speculation: Might we argue from this, that narrow-niche collectors (say, WWII) may be misleading themselves to dismiss tools with late-1930s date codes as “too early” to have served, and tools with 1945 date codes as acceptable, when there is every possibility that those tools hadn’t been finished or left the factory, let alone been available for procurement by the military?
 

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Private Lugnutz

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LS,
I think "dismissiveness" is too strong a term for how most WWII collectors approach late 1930's to 1941 tools. In fact, most WWII collectors know that examples from this pre-war period, with parabolic heads and often marked with compounds restricted in 1942, have been found in US Army Ordnance Dept surplus stocks re-packed in the early 1950's. Either inherited by the ORD from the QMC (which had responsibility for vehicles and vehicle maintenance through most of 1942) and carried in old stock or used and then re-packed for long term storage. On top of that, the WPB Major War Supply Contracts listings shows that the technical services were awarding major contracts for tools in early 1941, well before we declared war. Those, too would have a good chance of service. But they are found in very small numbers and treated, rightly so, as anomalies and exceptions. It isn't so much that they are dismissed as much as collectors would rather build their sets out with validated and verified wartime wrenches.
 

LesserSon

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Lugz- Thanks for addressing my misperception. I guess I imagine a set of 1940 tools, battered from wartime use, sitting next to a set of comparable NOS 1945 tools. Which is more authentic? Which would provoke more admiration?
UAIU- Yes, I think so, too. But this is like the third one I’ve found, and for some reason nothing has come of our PMs. I suspect he has more pressing things occupying his attention, and they don’t take up much space, even in my limited storage.
Edit - No, I just checked and he has filled the 1915-20 board.
 
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Private Lugnutz

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Lugz- Thanks for addressing my misperception. I guess I imagine a set of 1940 tools, battered from wartime use, sitting next to a set of comparable NOS 1945 tools. Which is more authentic? Which would provoke more admiration?
That's a big of a skewed sophie's choice in that your alternative is 1945, raising the specter of whether they even made it to the ETO or not. Some collectors avoid 1945 tools for that very reason. You've also got the used vs NOS element in there, which is subjective. I favor used, but some guys like NOS tools. If your choices were 1940 vs 1944 with both tools in the same condition, it would be more representative of my point. Most guys would go with the safer 1944 choice. But it should make you happy to know that some of us have so many tools that putting a complete pre-war set together, intentionally, became a hot trend there for awhile. :)
 

LesserSon

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I appreciate you taking the time to go into some detail, Lugz. War-time collecting remains an almost arcane discipline, to me. The limited supply of material, the high demand for precise characteristics, and the consequent motivation for dealers to alter or fake things to meet that demand, really creates a steep learning curve and a barrier to entry for the money-cautious. I see militaria often, but knowing what to look for to distinguish what something is from what the vendor says it is would literally fill a book, or a set of books, or a room of books.
Thanks for shining a little light on the pages.
 

LesserSon

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Zenel 3733

Here’s mine. Forged-in date codes on these are usually nestled in the hollow of one end of the depressed panel. Could be either end of either side. Sometimes, there are dots (like this one), larger Vs or Xs mixed in. Sometimes the relief is so low you can’t make it out. And sometimes it just doesn’t seem to be there at all. FS, in the range of Zenel production with just USA under BONNEY, is June 1955.
 

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lafester

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I'll be picking up this on Wednesday so I'm not certain what all is there yet.
Can anyone tell me what should be in the set?
Missing quite a few sockets for sure.

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bonneyman

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I'll be picking up this on Wednesday so I'm not certain what all is there yet.
Can anyone tell me what should be in the set?
Missing quite a few sockets for sure.

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Could be the refrigeration set.

1/4" drive ratchet, breaker bar, selected sockets (Loc-Rite and packing gland) as well as the 1/4" driver handle and a couple of shorty DBE wrenches.

Epsteins has a few of the different packing gland sockets.
 
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lafester

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There are other refrigeration items in the lot so that makes sense.
Could be the refrigeration set.

1/4" drive ratchet, breaker bar, selected sockets (Loc-Rite and packing gland) as well as the 1/4" driver handle and a couple of shorty DBE wrenches.

Epsteins has a few of the different packing gland sockets.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Private Lugnutz

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Could be the refrigeration set.
There are other refrigeration items in the lot so that makes sense.
The "V" in the set number on the box denotes 1/4-inch drive (excluding reefer stuff). Bonney reefer sets, while using 1/4-inch drive connections, all had RF model numbers. And all Bonney reefer pieces - except for the 1/4-inch drive "V" pieces that did double duty in reefer sets - had RF part numbers as well. In the 1930's and 1940's the Bonney 1/4-inch drive sets were V50, V51, and V52. I don't recognize that VM5B set number, but I bet it's some set from the 1950's, and that box looks 50's to me, too.
 

Private Lugnutz

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Here is an excerpt of the VM5B set from the 1957 catalog detailing the contents of your set.

It's possible that Bonney introduced the VM5B earlier than 1957, but there is no VM5B set in the 1947 Bonney catalog, so production is somewhere between 1948 and 1957. Some close-ups of the markings on the pieces might help us date them more narrowly, or at least closer to 1948 or 1957 production.
 

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lafester

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Thanks! Very helpful.
I'll post pics of whatever bonney stuff is left in there as soon as I get it.

Here is an excerpt of the VM5B set from the 1957 catalog detailing the contents of your set.

It's possible that Bonney introduced the VM5B earlier than 1957, but there is no VM5B set in the 1947 Bonney catalog, so production is somewhere between 1948 and 1957. Some close-ups of the markings on the pieces might help us date them more narrowly, or at least closer to 1948 or 1957 production.
 

LesserSon

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The 1951 catalog has VM5B on the top of section 2, page 3.
The 1950 catalog has VM5B on the top of page 11.
The "B" just means the VM5 set is packed in a metal box (MB12 - see how creative they were naming things?) instead of a cardboard box.
 
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Private Lugnutz

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I don't collect 50's tools as a mater of course, LS, but it's good to know you have those two catalogs, in case I need them. Not sure why I have the 57. Are they in your personal collection or were they on TA before it took a sabbatical?
 
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bonneyman

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The "V" in the set number on the box denotes 1/4-inch drive (excluding reefer stuff). Bonney reefer sets, while using 1/4-inch drive connections, all had RF model numbers. And all Bonney reefer pieces - except for the 1/4-inch drive "V" pieces that did double duty in reefer sets - had RF part numbers as well. In the 1930's and 1940's the Bonney 1/4-inch drive sets were V50, V51, and V52. I don't recognize that VM5B set number, but I bet it's some set from the 1950's, and that box looks 50's to me, too.

That's correct. The RF sockets are mostly packing gland removal types and female drive ratchet (for reefer wrenches) 4-point square. I never used them, instead getting lawn sprinkler system 4-way tools and different faucet handles on a big key ring for accessing square faucet valves. Alot of commercial customers would remove the faucet handles to keep the homeless from running up their water bills, and would lose track of the handles if someone like me needed water for a job. So, I ended up carrying a hand-full of handles.
 

Private Lugnutz

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Alot of commercial customers would remove the faucet handles to keep the homeless from running up their water bills, and would lose track of the handles if someone like me needed water for a job. So, I ended up carrying a hand-full of handles.
Good thinking!

Change of subject:

I was wondering if you'd have any objection to moving this thread to the Vintage Board?

As you are well aware, Bonney has been out of business for at least 25 years. None of their tools can be considered contemporary, not even the later production. So by rights it really belongs with its kind down on the Vintage Board. Not sure why it never got moved when the split occurred, but all the others did.

I am subscribed to the thread, so it doesn't really matter what board it's on from my perspective, but there are scores of newer guys on the Vintage Board who are not subscribed, because they don't know the thread is up here. Also, not having the thread on the Vintage Board just seems like a gaping hole in the collective history of vintage tools in general that exists down there.

As I said on the Duro-Indestro thread, I love 'em all, but the fact that we have threads dedicated to Blackhawk, Herbrand, New Britain, Plomb, P&C, SK, Snap-on, Thorsen, Williams, and Wright on the Vintage Board - while the Bonney and Duro-Indestro threads got left stranded up here just doesn't seem right.

But, it's your thread, and not something to lose sleep over, either.

Waddayathink?
 

LesserSon

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I saw your similar post on the Indestro/Duro thread, Lugz, and I agree.
IIRC (from reading, since it occurred before I joined), when the split was made, only threads with “vintage” in their title were moved to the Vintage board. Since then a lot of new threads on old tools have been created there, many without “vintage” in their title, which disguises the original logic.
I would question, however, what to do about all the threads that have a leg in both worlds, like the Vises of GJ. That thread is HEAVY into vintage and even antique items, but also encourages posting on modern vises.
 
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Private Lugnutz

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IIRC (from reading, since it occurred before I joined), when the split was made, only threads with “vintage” in their title were moved to the Vintage board.
Yes, that's exactly how they got stranded up here. Others were stranded at first after the split as well, but eventually got moved. Not sure how we missed these.

LesserSon said:
I would question, however, what to do about all the threads that have a leg in both worlds, like the Vises of GJ. That thread is HEAVY into vintage and even antique items, but also encourages posting on modern vises.
I think of that thread as a sort of universe unto itself. I un-subscribed for several reasons, one of them being its rapid pace and another being its, er, uniformity, for lack of a better word. I wouldn't even dream of suggesting it be moved, and I'm not sure the move would even be good for the Vintage Board. Frankly, I don't have my sights set on any other threads up here. Of the significant vintage mechanics tools manufacturers, I am pretty sure that Bonney and DI are the only ones who are still left behind. EDIT: I hear what you're saying about the occasional new thread that rightfully belongs on the Vintage Board instead, but I don't think there's much if anything to be done about those.
 
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bonneyman

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Good thinking!

Change of subject:

I was wondering if you'd have any objection to moving this thread to the Vintage Board?

As you are well aware, Bonney has been out of business for at least 25 years. None of their tools can be considered contemporary, not even the later production. So by rights it really belongs with its kind down on the Vintage Board. Not sure why it never got moved when the split occurred, but all the others did.

I am subscribed to the thread, so it doesn't really matter what board it's on from my perspective, but there are scores of newer guys on the Vintage Board who are not subscribed, because they don't know the thread is up here. Also, not having the thread on the Vintage Board just seems like a gaping hole in the collective history of vintage tools in general that exists down there.

As I said on the Duro-Indestro thread, I love 'em all, but the fact that we have threads dedicated to Blackhawk, Herbrand, New Britain, Plomb, P&C, SK, Snap-on, Thorsen, Williams, and Wright on the Vintage Board - while the Bonney and Duro-Indestro threads got left stranded up here just doesn't seem right.

But, it's your thread, and not something to lose sleep over, either.

Waddayathink?

Hey, whatever's best for the thread and the forum. I've got no problems letting it be moved. :thumbup:
 

lafester

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Here are the pics. more of the wrenches were there then I thought but only 3 sockets and the short extension were bonney.
 

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Mikeske

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Well found some new arrivals that I picked out of a pawn shop

The pawn shop find are follows
E4044 1 1/4 X 1/3/8" wrench
M167 21 MM wrench with a date Code of LS over 2 dots
23728 7/8" satin finish 7/8" wrench with a light engraving of a circle around a B this means at one time this wrench belong to the Boeing Co.

I also have always tried to figure out why this thread wasn't down in the vintage forum. But I learned in the military to never figure out the why of something after spending 20 years plus in the Air Force
 

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bonneyman

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Here are the pics. more of the wrenches were there then I thought but only 3 sockets and the short extension were bonney.

The tri-wing ratchet is the earlier Triangle Tool design. Intro'd in 1967, went to a single hyphen selector by 1977. Don't have a catalog in between those years so can't give exact year.
 
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bonneyman

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Well found some new arrivals that I picked out of a pawn shop

The pawn shop find are follows
E4044 1 1/4 X 1/3/8" wrench
M167 21 MM wrench with a date Code of LS over 2 dots
23728 7/8" satin finish 7/8" wrench with a light engraving of a circle around a B this means at one time this wrench belong to the Boeing Co.

I also have always tried to figure out why this thread wasn't down in the vintage forum. But I learned in the military to never figure out the why of something after spending 20 years plus in the Air Force

Nice satin 7/8"er! My collection ends at 3/4".
 

Mikeske

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Nice satin 7/8"er! My collection ends at 3/4".
COMBO 5/8" SATIN FINISH W1164 12 1
COMBO 3/8" SATIN FINISH 23712 12 1
COMBO 1/2" SATIN FINISH 23716 12 1
COMBO 11/16" SATIN FINISH 23722 12 1
COMBO 3/4" SATIN FINISH 23724 12 1
COMBO 13/16" SATIN FINISH 23726 12 1
COMBO 7/8" SATIN FINISH 23728 12 1

This is the satin finish wrenches that I have on my tool list. The 12 after the part number is denoting 12 point and the 1 at the end is the quantity I have
 
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rickhigginshtbr

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On the streamlines, could someone post up that catalog list of all the sizes again? Combo and DOE, I lost it when my computer crashed. Found a 1168 last week! Believe I'm down to 2 combo's that I need.
 

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(Are screen shots permissible to post?) These are from a pdf of the 1960 catalog. I’m not sure they are the widest range of sizes ever offered in any catalog.
 

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