Steel building basics?

[PNWguy]

I'm considering a steel building, but know nothing about them (other than the obvious). I've been around wood construction my whole life, and know what to look for and what I'm seeing. When it comes to steel, I feel pretty clueless. The guys I've talked to are clearly salesmen - "you should put down a deposit right now, because steel is going up 10% at the end of the month" type ****.

On the other hand, I was quoted 50k for a 40x60x12, including the slab, erection, doors & insulation. I don't think I could get near a stick build unit for that price. They aren't that popular here, and I'm trying to not screw this up terribly.

I've looked for an "all about steel buildings" thread and haven't found one.

 

[PugetDude]

Readhead is the go-to guy on the GJ for metal building questions.

Ask the contractor where he's getting the building/components. Some manufacturers are a lot better than others

 

[Nighttrain]

Metal thickness 26ga compared to 29ga. Red steel of galvanized pipe? In comparison of buildings these need to looked at. $50 k for that seems low. I just had a quote for a weldup 40x60x16 with two 12’x14’ roll ups one 12’x10’ rollup and a 6’x6’ rollup. Two man doors for $23k. The slab 4” on relatively flat grade is going to be about $22k. To build it I’m waiting the quote but my last one was $13k to weld up and build.

 

[PNWguy]

Readhead is the go-to guy on the GJ for metal building questions.

Ask the contractor where he's getting the building/components. Some manufacturers are a lot better than others

Thanks for the name; I'll look him up.

The local builder is working with the seller. The seller is from Federal Steel Systems in Denver.

I also got a quote from Buck, but they don't have any recommendations for local installers.

 

[PNWguy]

Metal thickness 26ga compared to 29ga. Red steel of galvanized pipe? In comparison of buildings these need to looked at. $50 k for that seems low. I just had a quote for a weldup 40x60x16 with two 12’x14’ roll ups one 12’x10’ rollup and a 6’x6’ rollup. Two man doors for $23k. The slab 4” on relatively flat grade is going to be about $22k. To build it I’m waiting the quote but my last one was $13k to weld up and build.

Thanks Nighttrain,

Walls & roof are 26g from Buck.

From Federal Steel they are not specified - all they sent were prelim drawing. This is one of the reasons I quite trust them yet. The price was about 30 for the building and 20 for the slab & erection. They said I'd need to get the ground "within 4" of flat" and they'd do the rest. Again, they were unclear about details. Just $25/sq' for a "turnkey" building with doors and insulation installed (no electrical).

In all honesty, I'd rather go with wood because I understand it. But I also think I can save tens of thousands.

I appreciate the input.

 

[readhead]

50K huh. Should jump on that. Now you have discovered the seedy side of metal buildings. Isn't it fascinating that they can quote a turn key building without visiting the site, have no knowledge of local soil conditions and no foundation plan.

If you were going to build a home you would develop plans and specs for said home and put it out to bid. However I get people coming in to find the cheapest price for a metal building and then want to work backwards into a complete job.

Sorry for the attitude. I'm okay now. Let me suggest first that you try to find a local metal building contractor. They will have knowledge of local conditions and already know subcontractors that are specialized in metal building construction. They will rep one or more building companies and discuss your specific requirements. The people you have talked to are probably brokers that don't actually supply anything. They employ high pressure sales tactics such as " the building that somebody put a deposit on and then canceled " scam.

When you start getting quotes compare weight. That is what you are buying and quotes supplied based on the plans and specs you provide, right, should be within a few hundred pounds.

I could go on but my best and first advice is to find a local company. I can usually meet or beat any internet prices if given a chance. People just assume they will get a better deal online. Contact me and I will give you the lowdown on metal buildings. Sometimes I think people think we are right there with lawyers and used car salesmen but there are some good ones.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Find a local guy. Or better yet, find a local building you like. Ask the if they are happy with their local guy.

My in law build his for $15/ ft. $30/ ft is supposed to be pretty easy.

 

[matt_i]

I would question the foundation design (want to see drawings). My opinions follow: Should have massive monolith block under each column that has a rebar cage in it. Should have anchor bolts (J- style) deeply embedded...iow its not a bolt that you buy at the Home Depot to hold the bottom of a stud wall....what kind of reinforcement are you getting in the floor...are they using curing sealer, do they saw cut the control joints...should have two-to-three perimeter rebars in a perimeter grade beam connecting the monoliths.

Also, what's the warranty on leaks?

Wiring them is not NM wiring, staples, and drilling holes in studs, you're now bordering on commercial/industrial work with EMT, clamps, MC, etc.

Also, can get roof pitches like 3:12 - 4:12 and have overhangs just like a framed building. Its of course extra but not a ton extra.

 

[ZipSnafu]

I did my 40x60x14 garage about ten years ago and it cost me right at 50K just for the excavation/slab and material. That's with me and a couple of friends doing all the actual building.

 

[2Big2Ride]

We did pretty much what readhead recommended here in Texas. In this area, metal buildings are the norm for accessory building. You can go from turn key, to buy the metal and erect yourself, and everything in between. We chose a local company that specializes in metal buildings to do it all. Happy we did.

Let me second that readhead is the go to guy on this subject - he has provided some great advice to many here at GJ.

We had talked to a couple of people that had similar metal buildings on their property for recommendations. I drew the basic elevations and floor plan and provided that for bids. All the bids were for a perfectly flat lot with minimal prep for the pour. The concrete sub came to our site and we discussed options and best course of action for our sloped lot. This prep work was an add-on to the original quote but was certainly reasonable. To make the building look a little less metal, we went with 4/12 roof, one foot roof overhang on three sides with a covered porch on the front side, and used corner trim color that matched the siding panels.

 

[My Old Tools]

Metal thickness 26ga compared to 29ga. Red steel of galvanized pipe? In comparison of buildings these need to looked at. $50 k for that seems low. I just had a quote for a weldup 40x60x16 with two 12’x14’ roll ups one 12’x10’ rollup and a 6’x6’ rollup. Two man doors for $23k. The slab 4” on relatively flat grade is going to be about $22k. To build it I’m waiting the quote but my last one was $13k to weld up and build.

Get some more quotes. I built mine last August. 30x40x12 I-beam red iron with a 6/12 pitch, 12x12 high lift door, man door, 8 windows, 20x30 steel framed loft. Double insulation. 12x40 carport on one side with slab. Gutters all around. The foundation was a cost driver with 50 inches of fall from front to back and 25 feet of triple drive. I also had it engineered for an overhead traveling hoist rated for 1 ton lift. $60k all in.

I used a local builder for the turn key job. He had his own concrete guys. They also had to take out 5 big trees, remove the roots, and bring in engineered fill to back fill the foundation. I would use him again. I got an initial quote from him based on my plan, then had him out for a site visit because of the steep slope and trees. I wanted it all bid up front, not a bunch of addons for every little thing that cropped up.

 

[PNWguy]

Thanks for all the input.

To be clear, I have found a local contractor who has experience with metal buildings. He knows the area, knows the country permit office, etc. I don't completely trust him yet.

It's the metal salesmen that I get a bad feeling about. The guy from Buck seemed OK, but the guy from Federal seems a little shady.

But thanks to you guys, I'm getting a list of questions to ask them the next time we talk.

Readhead - you obviously have a ton of experience.
If you were going to build a home you would develop plans and specs for said home and put it out to bid. However I get people coming in to find the cheapest price for a metal building and then want to work backwards into a complete job.
That's exactly what I did. I called the steel company and told them the size of the building, overhands, doors, etc. Then they gave me a price of $50k, including slab & erection. But the reason that I'm here is that I don't know what exactly else to spec. I'm hoping to learn enough from GJ members to be able to spec a good building, so I can get a good bid and have no surprises at the end.

 

[Radix2]

What do you want the final building to look like ? Insulation level, heating, interior and exterior finishes, overhangs, radiant slabs, water proofing etc?

Are the characteristics of a metal building what you are after in a final product - because the cost savings only exist when your endpoint fits the technology you choose - after all, that is why these various types of buildings exist - they are the low cost/efficient way to do what they do.

But try to get the cost of "A" with the features of "B" and you end up with more work and more cost in the end.

I put this comment here because you talk about a stick built building in the OP - so the question is - are you looking for a stick built style build out?

 

[PNWguy]

Radix2 - great questions.

I put this comment here because you talk about a stick built building in the OP - so the question is - are you looking for a stick built style build out?

I don't care how the building is made, as long as it is well made. I see pluses and minuses to both kinds of construction. I mentioned stick built for several reasons.
1 - it's what I am most familiar with.
2 - it's much more common here, and the contractors are familiar with it.
3 - I understand how all the parts go together - for example, I know it'll be 16" on center 2x6 walls with room for fiberglass batts. I can hang sheetrock or OSB for wall coverings. It will be easy to use attic trusses and have some usable space on a second level. I know how easy it is to attach shelving and cabinets to the walls. I know how to run electrical in it...

#3 is a huge unknown for me in a metal building. In fact, it's so unknown that I don't even know all the questions to ask the sales guy & builder.

As for the building itself, it's going to be roughly 2,000 sq ft (somewhere near 32x60 or 40x60) with electrical (110 & 220), a few man doors and 2 roll ups. Heat will be radiant in the slab. At some point, I'll make partition walls to keep the areas separate.

It'll be my auto, metal and wood workshop. Personal projects; no commercial work.

I started looking into steel, just because I want to do all the research before I build or buy something. The low cost is attractive, but I'm trying to find all the negatives too.

 

[readhead]

There is a crossover point where wood or metal is the best choice cost wise. Around here it is around 1600 square feet. A large expense is concrete. Less for wood, more for steel. Look closely at in floor heat. Large installed cost and possibly expensive to run. Feels great under your feet but comes at a cost. If you want to bolt something down to the floor you may have issues. Interior finish can be handled several ways. Most common is to frame a wall in front of the girts. Another option is to place girts at 2' on center and apply the finish directly to the girts. Another option is to install metal liner panels. As far as overhead storage you would need to frame some kind of floor system.

Have you been talking to any actual metal building contractors? They will supply the building. You shouldn't need to find the building on your own. I also supply erecting services and quite often the owner will ask why something is the way it is and I have to tell them that that is what you were sold. If there are parts missing it becomes the owners responsibility to get the missing parts.

 

[mcbane]

If you want to know more about pre-engineered metal buildings, the following book is very useful: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0071402012/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Provides an overview of the structural systems, insulation, foundations, sequence of assembly, how to avoid common problems, etc. It is intended to make you an informed buyer rather than a building designer so its an easy read - dont need to be an engineer.

 

[Tim Kennedy]

nighttrain:
I'm either missing something -a possibility - or I'm stupid --a bigger possibility. Let me explain -- 40x60 x 4" -- I get approx. 26.6 yards of concrete -- at a quote of $22k
let's see that's roughly $825 + a yard! Wow! What am I missing? or am I just dumb?

 

[readhead]

You are missing the footings and piers.

 

[brownbagg]

www.acemetalbuildings.com

 

[Whiskeymike]

@nighttrain do you mind sharing who the concrete was through? either here or in dm? I’m looking to extend my shop with a lean to and front driveway area and I haven’t found a concrete co.

 

[77Birdman]

My company specializes in erecting steel buildings. Theyre not that hard to do, but you do need to pay attention to all of the detail work. I like everything that Redhead has stated. I think we could get along. I sub to a large industrial contractor that does the purchasing so i cant attest to the cost, but from what i have seen the structure itself is pretty reasonable. We go in after the slabs have been poured, but in the past i have been involved with them from the dirt up. They usually have pretty substantial pier footings which require much more concrete than just the slab. Another thing is that the building company typically does not supply the insulation and that is extra. The initial price may seem great, but once you figure in everything you may be surprised at where the cost goes.

 

[welder57]

Make sure you get drawing that are signed and sealed by a P.E. Engineer for anchor bolts and structural drawing. If you don't get these at the start-you will be in for whole lot of hurt. Ask the owners of steel building in your area if they would get the same people to build their next building. What problems they had and if they fixed them correctly. Check with the county engineer about who will stick with the codes in your area. Do your homework before getting a building started, permits, concrete pricing, checking contractors for electrical, plumbing and if they have work on a steel building before. They may give you better advise on where you need to start.

 

[77Birdman]

Most of the buildings I have dealt with are engineered without a foundation. That responsibility falls on the owner to have a foundation designed to withstand the existing conditions. The buildings themselves are for lack of better words generic. Generally designed from the bottom of the columns up.

 

[drivesitfar]

ALL: I'm enjoying the read so far and want to see how things shake out as the build starts. also since you are maybe going to live (sort of) with your contractor for a few months make sure you like him even if the one you pick isn't the lowest bid. Cheaper isn't always better and a lot of times you get what you paid for.

good luck PNW

 

[welder57]

Steel building suppliers will furnish the customer with "reactions" for anchor bolt placement on each column. This will define what anchor bolts will be used, size & length and depth of foundation that will be needed to be designed for.

 

[PNWguy]

If you want to know more about pre-engineered metal buildings, the following book is very useful: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0071402012/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Provides an overview of the structural systems, insulation, foundations, sequence of assembly, how to avoid common problems, etc. It is intended to make you an informed buyer rather than a building designer so its an easy read - dont need to be an engineer.

Thanks mcbaine!

 

[PNWguy]

also since you are maybe going to live (sort of) with your contractor for a few months make sure you like him even if the one you pick isn't the lowest bid. Cheaper isn't always better and a lot of times you get what you paid for.

I couldn't agree more.

I'm looking for the best price; I'm looking for the best value.
Steel will clearly be less expensive, but it may not be worth it.

 

[readhead]

In what sense?

 

[avayan]

Quick question: what is the ratio of metal to wood when it comes to buildings? I am in the OP's opposite condition. I want a metal building but my community won't allow them. Hence, I will have to go with stick. If a 2400 SQFT building can be erected for 50K in metal, how much should I expect to pay for the same in stick? Same concrete, same electricity, etc. Granted that in my case it is going to be a little worse because it also has to be bricked...

 

[readhead]

Is your community opposed to metal construction or metal siding? Big difference. You can erect a metal building and cover it with any kind of siding and roofing. Does your local Walmart look like a metal building?

 

[gungatim]

sub'd (for my girl)

 

[Skylarkgp]

I'm considering a steel building, but know nothing about them (other than the obvious). I've been around wood construction my whole life, and know what to look for and what I'm seeing. When it comes to steel, I feel pretty clueless. The guys I've talked to are clearly salesmen - "you should put down a deposit right now, because steel is going up 10% at the end of the month" type ****.

On the other hand, I was quoted 50k for a 40x60x12, including the slab, erection, doors & insulation. I don't think I could get near a stick build unit for that price. They aren't that popular here, and I'm trying to not screw this up terribly.

I've looked for an "all about steel buildings" thread and haven't found one.

I live in Grants Pass and I've had similar issues with finding someone to redo the metal siding on our car wash. I think that I'm just going to do it in stages with just my wife and I doing the labor. Cleary is a reputable company around here but they do new metal construction not "remodels".

 

[PNWguy]

I live in Grants Pass and I've had similar issues with finding someone to redo the metal siding on our car wash. I think that I'm just going to do it in stages with just my wife and I doing the labor. Cleary is a reputable company around here but they do new metal construction not "remodels".

Which car wash?

PS - what do you charge for a full size truck that's covered with grime from a 3,000 mile road trip? I"ll be home in 10 days...

 

[drivesitfar]

PNW: very funny and sounds like you might meet a new member in your area at his car wash.

Readhead: since it sounds like you are a seller of metal buildings cause i recall you helping a member (Heffnell in Florida last year) do you have your own brand? also if it isn't Mueller are they a good brand cause i heard they were at or near the top in quality?

i always thought metal framed buildings were more expensive than pole or stick built or are they really less expensive?

thanks and I for one really appreciate all help you give the members!!

 

[avayan]

Does your local Walmart look like a metal building?

That's my thought exactly! From what I have heard, I could erect a metal building, brick it to match the home façade and everybody would be happy. What I would like to understand is, though, wouldn't this be far much more expensive than wood? Of course, it is just my impression, and I am looking forward to be enlightened in the matter.

At the moment I am not ready to build. I have the land but not the greens . But when the time comes, I know quotes will answer the question. Still, seems I should be able to get an idea before that time comes.

 

[readhead]

Drives, I source from a couple of builders but I do my best to deal with the closest ones to reduce freight costs. Mueller is a quality company and has been around for a long time. I used to rep Varco Pruden, another long time fixture in the industry. That being said there are a lot of smaller companies that can provide the same quality for less money.

There really isn't much difference in the way a metal building is built from any manufacturer. There are things unique like bracing. Some use rods and some use cables. The way outside corners are treated can vary but most are built the same way. What sets the buildings apart is service. Things like shipping. I hate when I have to unload another building to get mine because they shipped multiple buildings on one load. I finally refused a load and made the trucking company come back because they ran the route backwards. That is another whole story but I quite using that builder. The bad thing is the company will charge like that is the only load and not discount the freight. I now specify one load on one truck. Now you might think, well just be the bottom load. That would work if everything gets to you and they don't leave a bundle of purlins at the last job.

That brings up another point. The driver will collect a check before he unloads. Do not sign the shipping bill until everything is counted. I don't care how much they whine or complain that they need to pick up another load. Inventory everything because it can be difficult to get missing or damaged parts replaced. This sounds mean but realize that we can inventory pretty quickly because we can identify material easily.

As a dealer I interact with the builder differently than a homeowner. I know what I am buying and what questions to ask. That is why I always suggest that the buyer deal with a local contractor. The owner doesn't know what mistakes they are making until the building is on the ground and it is to late. There are a lot of sales people on the internet that are praying on your lack of knowledge.

Are they more expensive? Depends. Smaller buildings can be and for larger buildings nothing can come close. I have forty five years of experience as a general contractor and although I don't do any stick building anymore I will be the first to recommend to a customer that stick building would be a better fit for them. For people that want large clear spans and no maintenance steel is the way to go. Hay barns and equipment sheds are a perfect example.

This is getting long so my final thought is plan a project like a home. Do some very basic sketches and specs and start looking for quotes. Don't call and say I want a 30x40, how much? Send the plans and specs to qualified suppliers and contractors and put together a real number.

 

[drivesitfar]

Readhead: thank you very much for taking time out of your day to teach me (us) some of your awesome KNOWLEDGE.

have a great day!!

ALL: I was in the sales end of housing, developments and commercial building for almost 30 years and it was a pleasure to work with guys and a few gals that really knew their stuff.

just a note just cause a guy or gal doesn't come off as a pleasant or even polite person doesn't mean they won't know what they are doing or have quality workers helping them. I used to hear this a lot that the clients couldn't stand the personality of one of my builders, but THEY LOVED HIS/HER WORK so get references and maybe a friend or pay a guy that knows the good from the bad to help.

 

[readhead]

Thanks Drives. I think I have picked up some knowledge along the way and if I can help some guy in Ohio to not make a big mistake then I have done my part by sharing that knowledge.

There are a lot of ways to build a building. There is always going to be the "Ford VS Chevy" type reactions. I happen to sell metal buildings but if my brother puts up a pole barn I'm still going to talk to him at Christmas and Thanksgiving. Everyone has to make the right decision for them.

 

[Skylarkgp]

Which car wash?

PS - what do you charge for a full size truck that's covered with grime from a 3,000 mile road trip? I"ll be home in 10 days...

Bobo's Wash and Wax. It is on Mst right behind Arco. We charge $18 for a full size hand wash. My beautiful wife runs the day to day.

 

[elmech]

Thanks Drives. I think I have picked up some knowledge along the way and if I can help some guy in Ohio to not make a big mistake then I have done my part by sharing that knowledge.

There are a lot of ways to build a building. There is always going to be the "Ford VS Chevy" type reactions. I happen to sell metal buildings but if my brother puts up a pole barn I'm still going to talk to him at Christmas and Thanksgiving. Everyone has to make the right decision for them.

You've helped me I've been reading all your posts.