Structural screws or joist hangers?

[PCustoms]

Working on fixing my deck a bit. When built, they didn't use hangers, so the joist has pulled away slightly in spots. It was suggested I use structural screws (i.e. ledgerlok) to **** everything back together instead of adding hangers.

I've got a plan in mind already, curious what everyone thinks.

Deck is pushing 40, but 90% covered and built with the old PT so the frame is still solid.

 

[PoorUB]

I would use hangers and make sure you get the correct hangers and screws for treated.

 

[Rusted Nut]

Even if you use hangers, you’ll probably need to **** together, so start with screws and see how sturdy it is.

 

[manwithtools]

Ledegerlok are great for pulling framing members together. If it's not new soaking wet treated **** they sell today, they work even better.

 

[BillK]

Working on fixing my deck a bit. When built, they didn't use hangers, so the joist has pulled away slightly in spots.

Which joist has pulled away from what ?

 

[PCustoms]

Which joist has pulled away from what ?

Good question, didn't look to hard.

Rim joist is no longer flush to face of joists.

 

[BillK]

Good question, didn't look to hard.

Rim joist is no longer flush to face of joists.

So around the perimeter, not where it attaches to the house. I would probably go woth whatever code calls for in your area. Especially if it is up off the ground very much.

 

[loganb]

Screws or thru bolts for fastening ledger to the structure

Hangers with the proper structural nails or screws for hanging the joists. I prefer screws but that's preference

 

[PCustoms]

I'll update this thread later, but my plan is already in motion.

Curious what others would do

 

[BillK]

I'll update this thread later, but my plan is already in motion.

Curious what others would do

Not enough details. My deck is 2 ft off the ground. I would use structural screws in a minute if the perimeter board was coming loose. But it might be a different story if it was ten feet off the ground.

 

[PCustoms]

Not enough details. My deck is 2 ft off the ground. I would use structural screws in a minute if the perimeter board was coming loose. But it might be a different story if it was ten feet off the ground.

Does your deck have a support beam or other structure supporting the joists?

 

[BillK]

Does your deck have a support beam or other structure supporting the joists?

My deck is 12 x 22. The long side is against the house and the ledger board is through bolted. The perimeter board is actually a double 2x10 and it is supported by 4x4 posts. The 12 ft joists run out from the house and are attached to the perimeter board with joist hangers.

 

[PassnThru]

Deck is pushing 40, but 90% covered and built with the old PT so the frame is still solid.

Rim joist is no longer flush to face of joists.

You have a plan in mind and I believe I know what it is - go for it.
Code ignores and doesn't give leniency to people that can assess and understand a situation and monitor it and provide a suitable fix. It's a lowest common denominator situation.
You seem to be on top of it.

 

[Hank11]

I think you will want some kind of clamp to pull the joints together then either Headlocks or hangers and nails.

 

[RPH]

Use an adhesive in any joint you need to pull together. Squirt the glue in and use a structural screws to pull it all together.

 

[PCustoms]

Some interesting feedback here, I thought the answer would be more universal.

Deck is 8'x58', long way along the house and joists perpendicular. Ledger is secure, but no joist hangers so a small (1/8") gap at joist ends, likely due to shrinkage but I do wonder if they were cut not square. There's been no movement in the 8yrs I've owned it

Joists are end nailed to the 1st rim joist, then a 2nd rim joist was nailed on the face. Looks like 3 nails per joist, but I can't see them. There are 2 cracked joists, 1 was cut and cracked and the one adjacent split a little.

I'm not using ledgerlok to fix.

While everything is solid, I'm worried an additional fastener or 2 driven into the endgrain is going to split, and really fastening into the endgrain is the weakest way.

I order enough Simpson brackets and hanger screws to hit everything on the outside end, I'll evaluate the "house side" ends at a later time.

 

[mike93lx]

Use an adhesive in any joint you need to pull together. Squirt the glue in and use a structural screws to pull it all together.

Adhesive on the end grain isn't going to be particularly helpful. Mechanical connections are the way to go, IMO.

@PCustoms maybe some tension ties?

 

[PCustoms]

@PCustoms maybe some tension ties?

Thought about it, and forgot to look into it.

I'm assuming they are brutally expensive. Assuming the joists are cut square (or at least consistent) I should be able to pull it flush with a piece of block and a clamp.

Anyone know the bending strength of angle iron?

 

[PCustoms]

Yeah, at $20+ per tie, and that's without hardware, it would be cheaper for me to tear it down and start from scratch.

 

[manwithtools]

I'm not using ledgerlok to fix.

Using joist hangers alone is not going to pull the joists to the rim joists. Have you ever used Ledgerlok's?

 

[PCustoms]

Using joist hangers alone is not going to pull the joists to the rim joists.

I am aware, and addressed this in my post.

Have you ever used Ledgerlok's?

Yes.

 

[manwithtools]

I am aware, and addressed this in my post.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that, I still don't see it. Can you show me where you addressed this?

BTW, gaps at the end of the joists is not due to shrinkage, wood does not shrink (measurably) in length.

 

[cgrutt]

Guess I'm confused about what you're trying to accomplish and also some of the terminology being used in this thread. To me the ledger or ledger board is attached to house. Ledgerlok fasteners can be used to attach ledger to house but should not be used for attaching joists to the ledger.

The rim joist sits opposite from ledger. Joists run perpendicular from ledger and sit between the ledger and rim joist. The joists are usually supported by a beam within a foot or two from the rim joist so rim joist really isn't (usually bearing any load). I've used GRK RSS structural screws to attach rim joist to the joists but wouldn't use LedgerLOKs here either.

I've always used metal joist hangers as main structural attachment point for joist to ledger. I think it's less important (notwithstanding any code reuirements) on the rim joist side but still use metal connectors here as well. I have a Bostitich StrapShot gun so usually nail these connectors although I have used screws for various reasons, mostly access, too.

If rim joist is pulling away from joists it's typically been a result of warpage and I will usually replace the entire rim joist. It joists are "pulling" away from ledger it may be shrinkage or could also be caused by a serious structural issue with deck. If it's shrinkage and there is a significant gap you may need to replace joist. I don't understand how a ledgerlok could be used here to pull the joist tight against ledger other than running at an angle (like a toenail). I wouldn't recommend that.

If you need to get more "pull" on end grain of a joist you could drill a 3/4 to 1-1/2 hole through side of joist leaving at least 1-1/2" of wood and glue in (a preferrably) hardwood dowel. Then use a structural screw into the dowel. That should give you additional purchase for the screw. Or you could use a nut and bolt with washers. I'd still use joist hangers once everything is where you want it to be.

 

[PCustoms]

I'm sorry, I must have missed that, I still don't see it. Can you show me where you addressed this?

Assuming the joists are cut square (or at least consistent) I should be able to pull it flush with a piece of block and a clamp.

 

[PCustoms]

Guess I'm confused about what you're trying to accomplish and also some of the terminology being used in this thread. To me the ledger or ledger board is attached to house. Ledgerlok fasteners can be used to attach ledger to house but should not be used for attaching joists to the ledger.

The rim joist sits opposite from ledger. Joists run perpendicular from ledger and sit between the ledger and rim joist. The joists are usually supported by a beam within a foot or two from the rim joist so rim joist really isn't (usually bearing any load). I've used GRK RSS structural screws to attach rim joist to the joists but wouldn't use LedgerLOKs here either.

I've always used metal joist hangers as main structural attachment point for joist to ledger. I think it's less important (notwithstanding any code reuirements) on the rim joist side but still use metal connectors here as well. I have a Bostitich StrapShot gun so usually nail these connectors although I have used screws for various reasons, mostly access, too.

If rim joist is pulling away from joists it's typically been a result of warpage and I will usually replace the entire rim joist. It joists are "pulling" away from ledger it may be shrinkage or could also be caused by a serious structural issue with deck. If it's shrinkage and there is a significant gap you may need to replace joist. I don't understand how a ledgerlok could be used here to pull the joist tight against ledger other than running at an angle (like a toenail). I wouldn't recommend that.

If you need to get more "pull" on end grain of a joist you could drill a 3/4 to 1-1/2 hole through side of joist leaving at least 1-1/2" of wood and glue in (a preferrably) hardwood dowel. Then use a structural screw into the dowel. That should give you additional purchase for the screw. Or you could use a nut and bolt with washers. I'd still use joist hangers once everything is where you want it to be.

I'll try to keep this brief, and I'll start with the ledgerlok was just an example of a structural screw with a large head. GRK or Spax could be used as well, but since this is actually supporting a load into endgrain it is a bad idea (see below)

The ledger is secure on the house. The joists run perpendicular 8', and there is no beam supporting them. The doubled rim joist has supports every 8' along the 58' length. The joists are nailed, through the 1st piece of rim joist, into the endgrain.

The miss here is no hangers were used when it was built. I'm going to pull everything tight with clamps, then install hangers. 1 joist at a time.

 

[strutaeng]

Joist hangers and the ledger board are two different things. Go to the Simpson Strong-Tie website and download the deck articles they have. They have all the correct terminology, connection details, drawings/figures and hardware.

We have no idea what happened. Everyone is picturing different things in their minds because the question is very vague. Maybe a picture will help...this is where a picture is worth a thousand words. If something is pulling away, OP may have an imminent deck failure.

Have a competent contractor take a look or something if you don't feel comfortable making repairs yourself.

 

[Shiftless]

a small (1/8") gap at joist ends, likely due to shrinkage but I do wonder if they were cut not square. There's been no movement in the 8yrs I've owned it

If the gap is only 1/8 inch and hasn’t changed in 8 years, I personally wouldn’t worry about that prior to installing joist hangers on both ends of those joists. Go ahead and try clamping but don't worry about 1/8 inch.

 

[PCustoms]

Joist hangers and the ledger board are two different things.

No kidding. Not sure what I wrote that suggests they're the same.

If something is pulling away, OP may have an imminent deck failure.

Have a competent contractor take a look or something if you don't feel comfortable making repairs yourself.

Hasn't moved in 8yrs, failure is not imminent.

I don't need a contractor, I'm more then capable of building a deck. Hell, it was a contractor that suggested I use structural screws to fix this.

 

[PCustoms]

If the gap is only 1/8 inch and hasn’t changed in 8 years, I personally wouldn’t worry about that prior to installing joist hangers on both ends of those joists. Go ahead and try clamping but don't worry about 1/8 inch.

Maybe. If I can fix it it's worth the few minutes.

If push comes to shove (lol) I'll just push it with the tractor.

 

[strutaeng]

Maybe. If I can fix it it's worth the few minutes.

If push comes to shove (lol) I'll just push it with the tractor.

Gottach...shove it with tractor and hold it in place with duck tape.

 

[cgrutt]

I've used ratchet straps in many creative ways to square up and pull together decks before.

 

[PCustoms]

I've used ratchet straps in many creative ways to square up and pull together decks before.

I've had that thought, but could not come up with a good attachment.

I might use your idea of boring a 1" hole in the center of the joist, then a solid bar across 2. Wrap the big strap and **** it in.

Original plan was a block screwed to the side of the joist (going to try to clamp it, but likely not enough force) and a big bar clamp. I looked at timber/beam pullers but they are $$$.

Hell, I might be able to pull it in with a nail and a small prybar.

 

[Shiftless]

Maybe. If I can fix it it's worth the few minutes.

Don’t forget this that you said earlier.

 

[cgrutt]

I've had that thought, but could not come up with a good attachment.

I might use your idea of boring a 1" hole in the center of the joist, then a solid bar across 2. Wrap the big strap and **** it in.

Original plan was a block screwed to the side of the joist (going to try to clamp it, but likely not enough force) and a big bar clamp. I looked at timber/beam pullers but they are $$$.

Hell, I might be able to pull it in with a nail and a small prybar.

Yeah pulling into house can be problematic. If you pull the deck screws in the joist you're working on you can probably just knock it into place or use some leverage on other end with prybar etc. What is holding the ledger onto house now? Lags? You can maybe attach a d-ring or tie down anchor with existing lag and get a ******** it. Just be careful not to disturb any flashing between ledger and house if there is any.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I've had that thought, but could not come up with a good attachment.

I might use your idea of boring a 1" hole in the center of the joist, then a solid bar across 2. Wrap the big strap and **** it in.

Original plan was a block screwed to the side of the joist (going to try to clamp it, but likely not enough force) and a big bar clamp. I looked at timber/beam pullers but they are $$$.

Hell, I might be able to pull it in with a nail and a small prybar.

I was going to suggest ratchet straps myself.

Sometimes you just to get creative. Wrap one end and hook the strap itself or screw a block and use it for the anchoring point.

A few pictures would help.

 

[mike93lx]

Yeah, at $20+ per tie, and that's without hardware, it would be cheaper for me to tear it down and start from scratch.

I was thinking just a few, not every bay

 

[cgrutt]

Just thinking a bit more about this if gap is only 1/8" and hasn't moved in years its probably fine the way it is. Just add metal connectors and be done with it.

Two additional options though which are probably alot easier than trying to pull the joists tight and won't mess up anything on top side of porch (decking, railing, trim, windows/doors if enclosed etc.

Add shims to fill gap then metal connectors. One from top one from bottom. Tap until gap is filled trim flush with framing. Use structural adhesive if you want them to last.

Add blocking between the joists. Screw through side of joist into blocking on one side. Toenail the other side. Attach to ledger with structural screws. Add metal connectors after blocking is installed. May need to make accommodations for lag bolts etc in ledger board. May need to add or reflash depending on what's there now.

 

[PCustoms]

Just thinking a bit more about this if gap is only 1/8" and hasn't moved in years its probably fine the way it is. Just add metal connectors and be done with it.

Two additional options though which are probably alot easier than trying to pull the joists tight and won't mess up anything on top side of porch (decking, railing, trim, windows/doors if enclosed etc.

No railing, decking is being pulled up ~3' wide not enclosed. Pretty good access to fix.

Add shims to fill gap then metal connectors. One from top one from bottom. Tap until gap is filled trim flush with framing. Use structural adhesive if you want them to last.

Add blocking between the joists. Screw through side of joist into blocking on one side. Toenail the other side. Attach to ledger with structural screws. Add metal connectors after blocking is installed. May need to make accommodations for lag bolts etc in ledger board. May need to add or reflash depending on what's there now.

I'll have to read this better later, sounds like some good ideas

 

[PCustoms]

You ever want to go back in time and punch the guy that did something before you in the face?

I'm having one of those days.

Things he should have done:

• Used hangers on all joists
• Used a carrying beam set 12" inside the edge of the deck
• Put proper posts/railing

Trying to fix this after the fact is triggering my OCD. Posts/footings are about 8' OC (I haven't measured this, I bet their inconsistent). There's no way to get consistent spacing, aligned with these footings, for the railing/porch posts due to the door position.

There's no load (roof is cantilevered truss), but it just doesn't look right having a 6x6 two feet off of the footing/post.

It's now sleeting out. Came in to throw soup on the stove, warm up and think.

 

[mike93lx]

You ever want to go back in time and punch the guy that did something before you in the face?

I'm having one of those days.

Things he should have done:

• Used hangers on all joists
• Used a carrying beam set 12" inside the edge of the deck
• Put proper posts/railing

Trying to fix this after the fact is triggering my OCD. Posts/footings are about 8' OC (I haven't measured this, I bet their inconsistent). There's no way to get consistent spacing, aligned with these footings, for the railing/porch posts due to the door position.

There's no load (roof is cantilevered truss), but it just doesn't look right having a 6x6 two feet off of the footing/post.

It's now sleeting out. Came in to throw soup on the stove, warm up and think.

I dont handle reno work well. I'll start and try to work around what's there and end up tearing it all out. Costs more, but then it's all on me