Stuck drum brake: how to release?

[pepi]

When I have drilled those retaining screws, I found that virtually all the rust was under the head of the the flat head screw. After the rotor came off I was often able to easily unscrew the rest of the screw from the axle.

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What a goof, one fry short of a happy meal.....

No wait drums and rotors are both round, that must be the same....

never mind

 

[laurie71]

I'd be inclined to take the plasma cutter and cut a hole in the drum face to access the shoe retracting springs. After they're off the pin, the drum should come off with the guts inside.

Wish I had a plasma cutter! That's a pretty good approach to a destructive solution though; even with just an angle grinder, I could cut away a section at the bottom of the drum without risking damage to the backing plate, get access to cut out the adjuster, and then get the shoes retracted and the remains of the drum off.

Did the wheel turn before you started all this? If so, I would say that the shoes are not stuck to the drum and there is a ridge around the drum not allowing it to pass over the shoes or the center register hub/face of the hub is seized to the frum. I understand not wanting to destroy the drum, but sometimes you have to. On the other hand, it makes for good practice when the next one is made of unobtaimium. Try finding a drum for a 1952 International L-122.

The hub turns, the shoes aren't stuck; and the drum is now free from the hub. And I don't think there are many classic cars for which parts are more available than this one!

I've had one once that the E-Brake cable was pretty rusty and when the customer applied it that was it. it locked up and would not release no matter what, we cut the cable close to the end of the housing closest to the wheel to get it to release... That was a Ford too incidently...

I almost cut the parking brake cable in a fit of 'what else can I try??' but managed to restrain myself... I don't think it would help in this case.

 

[6PTsocket]

I had a front rotor like this. Heated and Kroiled and PB blasted, and hammered for 2 days. Finally, I took a cut off wheel and cut all the way around just behind the hub face. I got the face right off with a pry bar and once inside the rest was easy. That should work for a drum too, especially since you have loosened it from the axle. Later somebody told me I could have just struck the hub and shattered it. Drums too, I guess.

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[KenC]

I'm Confused: You said the hub turns, but there is no hub on the rear of a Mustang, at least nothing I'd call a hub. Are you referring to the axle?
In my earlier post about breaking the rust seal, not speaking of the hub, but the shoes themselves often stick to the drum. Vibing the drum OD with an air hammer can break that. If there is absolutely no drum movement without the shoes moving, that may be it. Usually a ridge on the drum will allow a little in/out movement, unless of course you have aready got the drum started onto the shoe.

 

[laurie71]

I'm Confused: You said the hub turns, but there is no hub on the rear of a Mustang, at least nothing I'd call a hub. Are you referring to the axle?
In my earlier post about breaking the rust seal, not speaking of the hub, but the shoes themselves often stick to the drum. Vibing the drum OD with an air hammer can break that. If there is absolutely no drum movement without the shoes moving, that may be it. Usually a ridge on the drum will allow a little in/out movement, unless of course you have aready got the drum started onto the shoe.

Sorry, yes, axle. Originally the drum would turn (a little; transmission is in park and other side is on the ground) but not move relative to the wheel studs. So, shoes not stuck but drum rusted to axle.

Now I can wiggle the drum about and pull it away about 1/8" at which point it stops, presumably where the ridge catches the shoes.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Now I can wiggle the drum about and pull it away about 1/8" at which point it stops, presumably where the ridge catches the shoes.

If you have it off the hub flange by that much, you can drill and tap the drum for a couple of bolts to push it off.

 

[laurie71]

If you have it off the hub flange by that much, you can drill and tap the drum for a couple of bolts to push it off.

Well hell. You, sir, are a smart man! As it happens, the puller you linked to earlier did the trick -- made easy work of it actually:



Now I can finally measure to determin drum and shoe sizes front and back and order up those parts, and have basically all new brakes

 

[theoldwizard1]

Well hell. You, sir, are a smart man! As it happens, the puller you linked to earlier did the trick -- made easy work of it

Thank you ! Did you buy one or were you able to rent one ?

Now I can finally measure to determin drum and shoe sizes front and back and order up those parts, and have basically all new brakes

DO IT RIGHT !!

All new hardware (hold down and return springs) AND new wheel cylinders. You should probably replace the brake lines on the axle and the flex hose from axle to body. Heat the fittings. Use NiCopp replacement line.

Good luck on trying to free up the emergency brake cables !

 

[laurie71]

Thank you ! Did you buy one or were you able to rent one ?

Bought one via the link you supplied. I figured I'd have need of it again -- probably on the other end of the axle!

DO IT RIGHT !!

All new hardware (hold down and return springs) AND new wheel cylinders. You should probably replace the brake lines on the axle and the flex hose from axle to body. Heat the fittings. Use NiCopp replacement line.

That's the plan! Already picked up two sets of these to do all 4 corners:



I was planning to do the flex lines but the brake lines look like they may have been done by the previous owner (disconnecting the line from the cylinder was easy, even using just a regular open-ended wrench) so the flex lines might have too. They look to be in good shape, so I'll inspect closer to confirm. If they look at all suspect I'll swap them.

Good luck on trying to free up the emergency brake cables !

I'm pretty sure it isn't stuck! I applied it when I first parked the car at my place, then had to move the car to work on the breaks, and it released. Again, I'll inspect and test before reconnecting it.

The drums are a different story. The one that's caused all the trouble actually looks to be in good condition after all that. No appreciable wear line / ridge at the edge of the friction surface, which looks reasonable.



Of course it might not actually be *round* anymore... I'll probably end up replacing it. On the other hand, I'll be spending the rest of the evening looking into disk brake conversion kits... Unfortunately I noticed they were a lot cheaper than I'd expected while shopping for drum brake bits... if I pony up for that, I'll use the old drums just for moving the car around my yard until I put them on.

Thanks again (to you and everyone who's chimed in on the thread) for the help and advice, it's really appreciated.

 

[laurie71]

A few extra pics for anyone who's interested. Unlike the front wheel on this side (which was a nasty mess inside, with parts missing to boot) everything was present and intact (with the exception of the retaining pins I cut from the back -- wont do *that* again!):



The old shoes have plenty of meat on them. Too bad they're completely contaminated with WD-40, brake fluid, and rust.



Everything is old, dirty and corroded; the adjuster is seized to the point I couldn't even turn it with both hands (hence all my trouble after braking the drum free from the axle).



You can probably see from the photo that the cylinder had failed and was leaking (though, again, DS front was *much* worse).

Finally, having got the rear drum apart, I could finally confirm drum and shoe sizes to order new parts:



Front and rear are both 10" drums (as expected; V6 cars had smaller drums with 4-bolt stud pattern but all the V8s were 10"). Rears are 2" deep, fronts a little shy of 3".

I should get some pictures of what came off the front of the car too...

 

[laurie71]

Darn it! The $10 brake drum theoldwizard1 found for me has had it's price corrected to $32.78. That's more in line with other suppliers on Amazon. No clue why Autozone wants $69.99 for them!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Front and rear are both 10" drums (as expected; V6 cars had smaller drums with 4-bolt stud pattern but all the V8s were 10"). Rears are 2" deep, fronts a little shy of 3".

I sold auto parts at Sears about 45 years ago. We sold lots of brake shoes. Late 60s Mustangs were very popular and still had front drum brakes. Ford must have had a surplus of 6 cylinder brake parts because customers would come in for brakes for a 390 Mustang (2.5"-3") and then come back because they had 6 cylinder brakes installed at the factory (<2") !

 

[Provincial]

I sold auto parts at Sears about 45 years ago. We sold lots of brake shoes. Late 60s Mustangs were very popular and still had front drum brakes. Ford must have had a surplus of 6 cylinder brake parts because customers would come in for brakes for a 390 Mustang (2.5"-3") and then come back because they had 6 cylinder brakes installed at the factory (<2") !

This is because the narrow brakes were originally designed for the 6-cylinder Falcon, and carried over to the Mustang, which used the Falcon undercarriage/drive train. The narrow brakes were cheaper to produce and could be installed on the greatest number of cars. Who cared if the "hot" models could stop?

That was while Ford was still living in the Robert McNamara Era. He established a mentality at Ford that everything had to be done cheaper, rather than right, and that any part must be used on as many different models as possible. Although he left to be Secretary of Defense for JFK in 1961, the systems and way of thinking he left behind stumbled on into the Pinto era. He did just as much damage to the DOD before moving to the World Bank, which is stll screwed up!

 

[jimgood]

Most drums don't have them, mostly those are found on foreign vehicles. and late models, First time I ever saw them as a working mechanic was on a Nissan in the late 80s... but a BIG Gear Puller will work and most likely the issue is rust around the hub Generally rust on the axle... unless it is a front drum and a lot of those had integral hubs. some of the later model stuff had retaining screws for the drums and rotors. if you use the puller you will probably bend some of the hardware, so you will probably need to buy new kits, Though grinding off the heads of bolts and hardware doesn't exactly strike me as "Non Destructive" the drum will probably need to be turned at the least and replaced most likely. the hour of my time to remove the SOB is worth more than the replacement drum... Just sayin.

I stand corrected. I was thinking of rear discs with parking brake drums and all the ones I've worked on have been on Japanese cars.

 

[laurie71]

Thought I'd wrap this thread up with lessons learned and what worked for me, for anyone who may be curious. I haven't done this type of mechanic work on an old car in probably 20 years and, in spite of all the frustrations, I've very much enjoyed working through this project.

The brakes on this car had clearly not been serviced in a long time. Every wheel cylinder showed at least some leakage of brake fluid, although the front left was by far the worst. Three out of four auto-adjust cables had broken, both rear adjusters were completely seized (I didn't check the front PS one as the front drums came off without the need to back the shoes off), and everything was filthy!

And yet the brake shoes had plenty of meat on them (would have been serviceable if not so contaminated) and the drums showed minimal wear. The only one I have any concern about not replacing is the DS rear that I had to abuse so much to break it free of the axle.

MWTE (Most Worthy Tool Expenditure): the drum puller linked early in this thread by theoldwizard1, to whom I owe a debt of gratitude for his help and advice. That thing worked like a dream! I had the PS rear apart in minutes thanks to that tool!

The second biggest challenge after the DS rear drum-rusted-to-the-axle fiasco was getting the old wheel cylinders out; the bolt heads were undersized due to rust, and several were seized. Through Google and YouTube I learned some new techniques for dealing with seized and/or rounded off bolts and, via a combination of PB Blaster (never used it before, I'm impressed!), heat/quench, hammer and chisel and one lucky break with an impact wrench, I got them all out. Best of all, I only mangled one so badly that it couldn't possibly be reused...

But there was that one... went to Ace Hardware to see if I could source new bolts. Yeah, not so much. They had stainless hex head bolts the right size and thread pitch, but starting at twice the length I needed. I bought the over-length bolt and a nut to fit, took it home and attacked it with a cut-off wheel on an angle grinder. My big compressor is in storage the barn, not hooked up to power, and not in service, so I was using a little portable compressor. It could only run the angle grinder for about 20-30 seconds at a time... So I went to the Dremel and 3 cut-off disks later had the bolt cut to length! Argh!

Other tools bought:

Brake pliers: very helpful for spring removal -- for one of the three springs in each brake drum... But indispensable for installing new springs -- for two springs out of the three... I never did figure out a use for the "plier" aspect of the tool...

Shoe retainer spring tool: basically a waste of money! It worked OK for removing retaining springs, but pliers worked better for installing and perfectly well enough for removal.

At this point all four brakes are completely rebuilt, the rears are adjusted and bled and I just need to adjust and bleed the fronts. Maybe. Damnit, I think the master cylinder may be shot too!

All I need is enough brakes to move the car under cover. After tonight's work, despite no resistance from the brake pedal, I'm hoping the parking brake will be operational and enough to get the car out of the weather and out out of the way...!

 

[SteveH-CO]

Now that it's too late (good for the next project, however) - When the shoes were stuck on the drum groove, I ground off the brake nails on the back side of my backing plate of my '89 Land Cruiser. This allowed the shoe parts to (essentially) fall apart inside the drum and move inward, which let the drum come off. I had spent hours fiddling with the adjuster, to no avail.

I bought an entire brake hardware kit from Rock Auto for a whopping $6 and replaced all the brake nails and a few other questionable parts.

 

[jimkinney]

I am assuming it is a 6980. 40 years ago, I would have bought one of those. Now, I don't do enough drum brake jobs to justify it. At my age, I may NEVER do another drum brake job ! I guess I don't need that wheel cylinder hone I have been keeping for 40 years !!

I've got a couple of those of the same vintage. Hope to never need them either.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[laurie71]

Now that it's too late (good for the next project, however) - When the shoes were stuck on the drum groove, I ground off the brake nails on the back side of my backing plate of my '89 Land Cruiser. This allowed the shoe parts to (essentially) fall apart inside the drum and move inward, which let the drum come off. I had spent hours fiddling with the adjuster, to no avail.

I bought an entire brake hardware kit from Rock Auto for a whopping $6 and replaced all the brake nails and a few other questionable parts.

I actually tried that trick, but for the setup on this car it didn't help... Once I did get everything apart, though, I replaced pretty much everything.

 

[TractorJeff]

YEP! Master Cylinder is shot!
They do that!
Parking Brake Cables will never work!
When you stepped on the E-Brake, then released, it was only the slack that made them appear working.
Sorry!

 

[kbs2244]

Have you checked the factory manual?
It will tell you if you are missing a hidden hold on fastener.

 

[sberry]

I pull drums on most everything if I get something "new" ha,,, but also at every service and tire rotation. I can grind the ridge off evenly with a 4 1/2, have done dozens, maybe more and I clean the ridge each time so I can get them off again, sometimes its as simple as a 80 or 100 grit paper and takes a minute, sometimes I use a sander but I check adjustment, adjuster, make sure its working, check the wheel cyl for leaks and tune up adjustment so I slide drum on and never really work thru the hole, all this takes a couple mins a wheel if kept up on.

 

[Airforce]

Good morning,

Long time lurker, but finally a thread i can post to.

What a lot of folks here in Germany do is turn a chamfer on the drums. It may seem a bit odd but when it is done right to the edge of the shoe contacting the friction area, the chamfer wears down evenly and makes it a Piece of cake getting the drum off.
I´ve been using that method on all drums I had and it has never failed me.

Cheers Airforce

 

[laurie71]

Hmm, I'm not getting notifications for replies on this thread, it's not showing up in the User CP, I had no idea anybody had posted. Sorry!

YEP! Master Cylinder is shot!
They do that!
Parking Brake Cables will never work!
When you stepped on the E-Brake, then released, it was only the slack that made them appear working.
Sorry!

Actually the parking brake is working great. It's the only working braking I have, and it's doing everything it should.

Have you checked the factory manual?
It will tell you if you are missing a hidden hold on fastener.

Not sure what you mean... I haven't bought a factory manual yet, I just have a Haynes manual (which is fairly useless) but as far as I can tell everything that should be there is there...

I pull drums on most everything if I get something "new" ha,,, but also at every service and tire rotation. I can grind the ridge off evenly with a 4 1/2, have done dozens, maybe more and I clean the ridge each time so I can get them off again, sometimes its as simple as a 80 or 100 grit paper and takes a minute, sometimes I use a sander but I check adjustment, adjuster, make sure its working, check the wheel cyl for leaks and tune up adjustment so I slide drum on and never really work thru the hole, all this takes a couple mins a wheel if kept up on.

Yeah, keeping brakes well serviced certainly keeps life easier. In the end, once I got things apart, I actually didn't have any ridges, the drums are all in great shape. And everything else is now new, so brake service should go *much* smoother in future!

Good morning,

Long time lurker, but finally a thread i can post to.

What a lot of folks here in Germany do is turn a chamfer on the drums. It may seem a bit odd but when it is done right to the edge of the shoe contacting the friction area, the chamfer wears down evenly and makes it a Piece of cake getting the drum off.
I´ve been using that method on all drums I had and it has never failed me.

Cheers Airforce

Honored to be your inspiration to start posting (I see you have a few posts so perhaps you have a new habit?!) and thanks for the advice, sounds like a good method.