Dagny
Well-known member
nice of the phone man clogging up under the panel.
Sub Panel Feed Wire Question
- Thread starter ProjectX
- Start date
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Even with A/C or a heat pump, most how shops can get by on 60A. The size on the breaker in the sub-panel does not matter. What is important is the size of the breaker FEEDING the sub from the main. Wire size is also based on this.
Ok guys need a little advice on where I am now. I've been working on getting the sub panel installed yesterday and today. I was able to get the PVC bent and installed around the pipes and I moved the ATT box that was in the way which simplified things a bit. Today getting that wire through the 1.5" conduit was a bi*ch, but me and my neighbor finally got it through. For everyone who suggested 1.5" or anything smaller...God bless you LOL. I've got the sub panel wired up and I just need to wire the main panel which the neutrals bars are all full.
Can I put the bare copper grounds in with the white wires and can I put 3 small copper wires together on one hole or 2 bigger copper wires in one hole to free up the space I need for the neutral terminal kit . Also, can I put the Neutral Terminal Kit on the right neutral bar or does it have to somehow fit on the left where the other one is? I assume there is more spaces behind the breakers that I could get to if I pull out the breakers? Any advice on this part would be great.
Can I put the bare copper grounds in with the white wires and can I put 3 small copper wires together on one hole or 2 bigger copper wires in one hole to free up the space I need for the neutral terminal kit . Also, can I put the Neutral Terminal Kit on the right neutral bar or does it have to somehow fit on the left where the other one is? I assume there is more spaces behind the breakers that I could get to if I pull out the breakers? Any advice on this part would be great.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
How did you pull? Rope or fish tape? Did you use lube?
Conduit looks good...good job
Neutrals (white) need to be one per hole. Grounds (bare or green) can be doubled up (possibly more, would need a sparky to confirm)
Conduit looks good...good job
Neutrals (white) need to be one per hole. Grounds (bare or green) can be doubled up (possibly more, would need a sparky to confirm)
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
as said above, you are limited to 1 neutral per lug. grounds can be doubled up on each lug on most panelsOk guys need a little advice on where I am now. I've been working on getting the sub panel installed yesterday and today. I was able to get the PVC bent and installed around the pipes and I moved the ATT box that was in the way which simplified things a bit. Today getting that wire through the 1.5" conduit was a bi*ch, but me and my neighbor finally got it through. For everyone who suggested 1.5" or anything smaller...God bless you LOL. I've got the sub panel wired up and I just need to wire the main panel which the neutrals bars are all full.
Can I put the bare copper grounds in with the white wires and can I put 3 small copper wires together on one hole or 2 bigger copper wires in one hole to free up the space I need for the neutral terminal kit . Also, can I put the Neutral Terminal Kit on the right neutral bar or does it have to somehow fit on the left where the other one is? I assume there is more spaces behind the breakers that I could get to if I pull out the breakers? Any advice on this part would be great.
neutral terminal kit can go on either bar. they are tied together
if you need to free up some lugs on the neutral bar, you can add a ground bar kit and move some grounds over to that. neutrals need to stay on the neutral bars
Thanks mike93lx. I used fish tape but I think my problem was that when I taped the 4 wires together I spaced them about 3 inched down from the previous wire and those bends didn't like that. Luckily my neighbor is half my age and with him pulling and me pushing we finally got it through. No lube, went in raw on this one lol. Ok, so I can triple the bare grounds probably. What's a sparky? Also, can I add the neutral on the right neutral bar, I think it would be easier to deal with on that side.
Wyliesdiesels, that's what I was thinking about the neutrals being the same, but wanted to be sure. Looks like there are more neutral spaces under the breakers on the right side, if so can I pull the breaker and move some of the grounds under the breaker or would that not be up to code? I will look into adding the ground bar kit as well. Thanks for the suggestions.
Wyliesdiesels, that's what I was thinking about the neutrals being the same, but wanted to be sure. Looks like there are more neutral spaces under the breakers on the right side, if so can I pull the breaker and move some of the grounds under the breaker or would that not be up to code? I will look into adding the ground bar kit as well. Thanks for the suggestions.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I would swap those 6 long GFCI (or AFCI; cant tell which they are) breakers with shorter ones on the bottom of the panel. this way the neutral bars arent covered up and it gives you access to the rest of the lugs on the neutral bars.
When pulling wire, trimming some strands off will make it easier to pull, if the pulling head is as small as possible, but will need to be more careful with aluminum conductors then with copper though. If all the strands are left in place it will soon be regretted.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Sparky= electrician. There are a few here, but I am not one.
That pull would have gone a lot easier with rope and lube. That's why people were saying 1.5 is plenty big. Either way, you got it done and know for next time
ok, I wish I new about the lube and rope trick, I'm sure that would have made things easier I'm sure. I could always tell when it was at a bend because the pull pretty much stopped dead in its tracks and took some real push/pull effort. I almost considered going with 1" PVC but I'm glad I listened to the advice from this group or this would have been impossible to complete under the circumstances. I've received nothing but good advice from this group. I have definitely leaned a lot from this project. I'm hoping to get past the main electrical panel connections next...that's the next big hurdle for this project. I'm going to take a look at the panel again and see what will be the easiest route to get the wires connected based on the suggestions I have received.
Ok guys I need some confirmation to be sure I'm on the right track with the sub panel please. I've got a question on where the "green" wire is connected.. You can see in the picture it is marked "Ground Strap" and tied into the lug at the top. Do I connect the bare copper grounds to the ground strap or the area marked "equipment ground" bolted to the case on the far right side? Also, I don't need a ground rod since the sub panel is 30 feet away in the same building right? The wire with the two pieces of green tape on it were to make the neutral wire and not meant to be the ground wire.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Ok theres a number of issues hereOk guys I need some confirmation to be sure I'm on the right track with the sub panel please. I've got a question on where the "green" wire is connected.. You can see in the picture it is marked "Ground Strap" and tied into the lug at the top. Do I connect the bare copper grounds to the ground strap or the area marked "equipment ground" bolted to the case on the far right side? Also, I don't need a ground rod since the sub panel is 30 feet away in the same building right? The wire with the two pieces of green tape on it were to make the neutral wire and not meant to be the ground wire.
Why is the left wire taped with green stripes? That should be white stripes
The green wire on the right neutral bar needs to be moved to the ground bar on the right hand side.
The green bonding screws need to be removed from both neutral bars
That is correct you dont need ground rods sonce its in the same structure
Thanks for the responses. The green tape was temporary to designate which wire was the neutral wire when I pulled it so I'll get that remarked with white tape. I had removed a flat tip screwdriver green screw from the hole beside the current green screws (there was one in the panel and one in the kit that came with the instructions) so I need to also remove the two remaining green screws as well? If you expand the picture there is a arrow pointing to the screw holes that are missing labeled "Bonding Screw" on both sides which I removed. So I need to move the green wire to the ground bar on the right, I'll go get a lug adapter today to mont on that ground bar. You can see the original bonding screw on the right and the left was already removed but below those it's marked bonding screw with an arrow pointing to them. Here is a better picture of the panel before I mounted it so you can see the factory markings showing bonding screws with an arrow pointing to the screw locations. On the left it's marked "Bond screw Neutral Strap" and the right side it's marked "Bond Screw Ground Strap".
Also I thought I didn't need a conduit all the way to the bottom of the panel. The wire goes into the wall with conduit and then at the bottom of the panel I have a plastic fitting to protect the wire. From what I have read that was supposed to be fine as long as the wire was protected entering the panel. Is that not correct?
Also I thought I didn't need a conduit all the way to the bottom of the panel. The wire goes into the wall with conduit and then at the bottom of the panel I have a plastic fitting to protect the wire. From what I have read that was supposed to be fine as long as the wire was protected entering the panel. Is that not correct?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Ok now that Ive looked closer at it, i see those green screws are just connexting the lug to the bar.
Is there a strap tying the left and right bars together? There usually is but in this case the right bar may indeed be a ground bar since i sont see a strap tying the 2 together
Yes the wire needs to be in conduit end to end since it doesnt have an overall sheath or jacket.
Is there a strap tying the left and right bars together? There usually is but in this case the right bar may indeed be a ground bar since i sont see a strap tying the 2 together
Yes the wire needs to be in conduit end to end since it doesnt have an overall sheath or jacket.
No there isn't a strap tying the L and R bars together. Ok, I'll pull the wire out of the panel and use conduit all the way. So just be sure where I have the green wire is correct and I can use that bar for grounding the bare copper wires? The bar on the left marked neutral strap would be for neutral wires only right?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Yes thats correct
You dont typically see a panel with a ground bar like that.
Usually the left and right bars are bonded with a strap under the breaker backboard and you have to add a ground bar kit.
So yeah leave EGC on right bar and reinstall green bonding screw, wrap white tape on neutral conductor on left bar and leave green bonding screw out of that bar.
You dont typically see a panel with a ground bar like that.
Usually the left and right bars are bonded with a strap under the breaker backboard and you have to add a ground bar kit.
So yeah leave EGC on right bar and reinstall green bonding screw, wrap white tape on neutral conductor on left bar and leave green bonding screw out of that bar.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Pull the wire back past the existing conduit. Then glue it up.
Do not glue conduit up where there is wire passing through. It will melt the wires' insulation.
Might **** to do but don't cut that corner
Do not glue conduit up where there is wire passing through. It will melt the wires' insulation.
Might **** to do but don't cut that corner
Ok guys, I'll be back on this this week making the suggested changes. Definitely a setback but I would rather get it done right.
I pulled out my meeter and tested with the bonding screw in the right side (ground strap side) and I have a connection with the case, if I take it out the strap has no case connection. By the way this is a GE panel.
I pulled out my meeter and tested with the bonding screw in the right side (ground strap side) and I have a connection with the case, if I take it out the strap has no case connection. By the way this is a GE panel.
Last edited:
I do not think both bars are neutral bars. If you look on the plastic, the one on the left is labelled "Neutral Strap" and the one on the right is labelled "Ground Strap" and I do not see a strap or anything tying them together anywhere. I'm thinking that is why they put the double lug on the left bar, so you can pull the bonding screw from the right bar and add a jumper from the left bar to the right bar. It looks like there is a place on the left bar to add a second bonding screw to bond everything together through the enclosure. But I can not find an actual manual online to verify any of this.
So, if I am correct, if you want to use both sides as neutral bars, remove the green screw, get a short piece of cable, labelled white, and connect the left bar to the right bar using the empty lug on the left bar, then buy a GE Grounding Lug to hook your green cable directly to the separate ground bar on the far right and hook all your grounds to that bar only. If you want to just use the left bar as a neutral, keep it hooked up like you originally had it (but change the green tape to white), put the green screw back in and both bars on the right can be used as grounds.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
yup looks like left bar is neutral and right bar is ground w/ bond screw installed. wonder why they put an addl ground bar in the can (unless the OP added that)
Every pic I found online of that panel has the additional ground bar, so I assume it comes that way. Weird. And GE's online support is non existent.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Ok, I finally got this done unless you guys see something I need to change. I didn't realize I had some responses since I've been really busy with work all week. To answer a few questions, no I didn't add the far right ground in the panel, it came with that. I also tried to find online support from GE, in particular the directions that came with the panel are missing the first half of the English portion, but I could not find any info online such as a manual. It looks like this panel had the Neutral bar on the left and the ground on the right with bonding screw.
Ok, so it wasn't to bad adding the conduit to the bottom of the sub panel as suggested. Was a bit of a trick to get it bent on such a short piece. I got the neutral marked with white tape in both panels and I finally got the main panel wired by moving some grounds around and the rest of the conduit strapped to the outside wall. I got the sub panel powered and did some voltage tests with my meter and everything seems to check out. Here are a couple pictures, hopefully it all looks good.
Ok, so it wasn't to bad adding the conduit to the bottom of the sub panel as suggested. Was a bit of a trick to get it bent on such a short piece. I got the neutral marked with white tape in both panels and I finally got the main panel wired by moving some grounds around and the rest of the conduit strapped to the outside wall. I got the sub panel powered and did some voltage tests with my meter and everything seems to check out. Here are a couple pictures, hopefully it all looks good.
That 50A receptacle is upside down if right angle plugs are used, they are always oriented with the ground prong up, so will not hang right with the ground down , if a straight attachment plug is used, it does not matter, then it is strictly a matter of personal preference. The whites of the NM cables needs to be reidentified as hots too.
Ok so the receptacle needs to be the other way, I always wondered about the dryer with that. I'm not sure what you mean by the whites of the NM cables and what would I use to identify them as hots. Are you talking about the wires attached to the breakers in the sub panel?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
yes they need to be taped black red or something other than white grey or green since it is NOT a neutral.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You could make your main a lot neater if you shortened the neutral pigtails on those GFCI's.
Conduit looks good. I'm sure it was a PIA
Conduit looks good. I'm sure it was a PIA
Ok, I have some black tape so I'll put some on each of those and get that receptacle turn over.
Mike93lx I'll probably leave those alone for now. I was pretty nervous pulling those breaker to move grounds at first but relaxed after a while lol. The conduit was a bit of a pain but got through it.
Mike93lx I'll probably leave those alone for now. I was pretty nervous pulling those breaker to move grounds at first but relaxed after a while lol. The conduit was a bit of a pain but got through it.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I hear you. It's healthy to have respect for a panel.
Yes, identify the white wires as hot wires (Black or Red Tape), turn the outlet over and in the future, I would run the grounds into the ground bar from the outside, around the bar instead of from the inside out. Will just make it easier to get future breakers into place. May not matter on the bottom where you already have them, but could get more difficult as you add to the subpanel.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Is that #2 aluminum that you used to feed the sub?
Hope not as you can't use a 100a breaker to feed it. Needs to be 90a or less.
Hope not as you can't use a 100a breaker to feed it. Needs to be 90a or less.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Yeah. 100a is only permissible when it is feeding a residential structure. You can drop to anything 90 or below. Somewhere in the 60-70a range may be a sweet spot for price,just make sure it will accept #2. Some 60's dont
He is feeding an attached garage from an exterior panel on the same structure.
My concern is the subpanel not having a main breaker or disconnect. Thinking he would be limited to the six throw rule. I would side feed the subpanel.
Only permitted to undersize it when it feeds the entire load of a dwelling.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
that has no bearing on the ampacity limits
not required by code since its in the same structure as the main.
Ok guys, I made the suggested changes and hopefully I having everything correct now. I went with a 70amp breaker in the main panel, turned the 220v plug around, marked the white wires with black tape and moved the grounds to the outside of the ground bar. If all looks good then next phase of this project is to get the Sheetrock back in the wall and get the garage back to looking like it did before this project. This group has been a huge help in getting this done and I learned a lot. I'm not done with this garage so I'll be back lol.
