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Survey: Craftsman BE and Circle-H socket sets

Rileysan

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Riding the coattails of two threads recently started on GJ - "Show your Long-C Craftsman!" https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376433 and "Long C Craftsman ratchets - survey help needed" https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301118 I opted to start a new thread dedicated to socket sets.

The purpose of this thread is to focus exclusively on Craftsman socket sets made under contract by New Britain Machine co. from ca. 1931-1947, stamped "BE" or "Circle-H".

I'm trying to discover the different sizes, broach-types (6-pt, 8-pt, 12-pt), or major varieties in both BE and Circle-H sets in all drive sizes. I have chosen to not use "long-c" in my descriptions because I have, in my possession, what I suspect to be an early "BE" socket that does not use the long-C scripting these sets are known for.

I would be grateful if you could take the time to look through your loose sockets or sets for anything you might consider useful in this discussion.

If you're new to the world of vintage Craftsman tools, I will only take a moment to mention the living, breathing Craftsman Tool Manufacturer and Date Range Summary Table, found here: http://www.thegaragegazette.com/index.php?topic=867.0

Thank you!

Brian
 
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Rileysan

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First up comes this Craftsman "Circle-H" 1/2" drive socket set.

The sizes I have in my possession are:

-12-pt, 1 1/8"
-12-pt, 1 1/16"
-12-pt, 1"
-12-pt, 15/16"
-12-pt, 7/8"
-12-pt, 13/16"
-12-pt, 3/4"
-12-pt, 11/16"
-12-pt, 5/8"
(12-pt, 19/32" not pictured)
-12-pt, 9/16"
-12-pt, 1/2"
-12-pt, 7/16"

I have duplicates and triplicates of most of these sockets. What I have not seen in "Circle-H" is any /32nd fractional sizes. I have them in "BE" but not Circle-H.

Edit: confirmed sightings of 19/32" exist in "Circle-H". Thank you, Twertsy!

In addition to the /32 fractional sizes, does anyone have 1/2" drive 3/8", 1 3/16", or 1 1/4" sockets?

Brian
 

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Rileysan

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Next up are my 1/2" drive "BE" sockets.

Clearly, I do not have a complete set. I am leaving a blank space in my column for those I suspect exist, but have not acquired. I do, however, have a couple socket sizes that I haven't seen in "Circle-H", which I have highlighted in bold print. I suspect both are uncommon, if not rare.

-12-pt, 1 1/8"
(missing 1 1/16"?)
-12-pt, 1"
-12-pt, 15/16"
-12-pt, 29/32"
-12-pt, 7/8"
-12-pt, 13/16"
(missing 25/32"?)
-12-pt, 3/4"
(missing 11/16"?)
-12-pt, 21/32"
-12-pt, 5/8"
(missing 19/32"?)
-12-pt, 9/16"
(missing 1/2"?)
(missing 7/16"?)

In addition to the assumed missing sizes, does anyone have 1/2" drive 3/8", 1 3/16", or 1 1/4" sockets?

Brian
 

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Rileysan

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Regarding my comments in the first post where I mentioned "Major varieties", I recently picked up this unusual 1/2" drive "BE" socket.

- 12-pt, 15-16", no "long-C" Craftsman logo.

Pictured next to another 15/16" BE socket for comparison.

I am only guessing, but I suspect it to be an early version of the BE series. I say that because the size uses a hyphen instead of a slash on the socket, much like many other manufacturers stamped their sockets.

I would also like to point out how much thicker the socket wall is on the non "long-C" socket. They are clearly two very different designs, but I don't know what else to make of it.

Brian
 

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Rileysan

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This listing says it includes a 19/32 circle-h 1/2" drive 12 point, which you said you haven't seen, not my listing just helping the search.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/112521655904


This one looks like it might also include the 19/32" socket, look at the second pic and you can see the 19/32"
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/182808944698

That's actually helpful. I'll send the seller a message and see if they have a photo. Thanks!

Brian
 
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Rileysan

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Moving on to 3/8" drive. Surprisingly, I do not own a single "BE" socket in 3/8" drive!

Here are the sockets I own in 3/8" drive "Circle-H".

- 12-pt, 3/4"
- 12-pt, 11/16"
- 12-pt, 5/8"
- 12-pt, 9/16"
- 12-pt, 1/2"
- 12-pt, 7/16"
- 12-pt, 3/8"


This seems like a very basic set, imo. Does anyone have other sizes? What do you have in "BE"?

I also have a couple swivel sockets. Both are marked with a hyphen instead of a slash.

- 12-pt, 1-2" swivel
- 12-pt, 3-4" swivel

Brian
 

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four.cycle

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Rileysan said:
I don't know what else to make of it.

That is a head-scratcher for sure. :headscrat

I don't need a micrometer to see that the walls of that are significantly thicker than the other.
I think it would be a reasonable assumption to think that the thicker one with the fraction expressed with a hyphen (instead of a slash) is of earlier production, but that's just a wild guess on my part.

I think I only have a couple sets that fall into the category you're looking for - both 1/4" drive SAE sets. I believe I have one "circle H" and one "BE" around here somewhere. No idea where they are. Only have a photo of one of them:

Craftsman 1.4 drive socket set circle H.jpg

Rileysan - forgive me for being thick, but I'm not sure I understand what it is you are trying to dig up with this thread. Differences in design? Broaching? What? All of the above? :headscrat
 

tym

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I don't have a pic immediately handy (I can take one if desired), but I have a BE 1/2" ratchet and (likely incomplete) socket set I got at a flea market. Here are the socket sizes that came with it.

3/4" 8 pt
1/2" 8 pt
15/16" 12 pt
7/8" 12 pt
13/16" 12 pt
3/4" 12 pt
19/32" 12 pt
1/2" 12 pt
 
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Rileysan

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Rileysan - forgive me for being thick, but I'm not sure I understand what it is you are trying to dig up with this thread. Differences in design? Broaching? What? All of the above? :headscrat

I think he is looking for All of the above and more. Basically any BE or circle-H socket variation out there and sizes available.

Well stated!

Since my recent acquisition of sets of 3/8" and 1/2" drive Circle-H tools, I've been on a crusade to discover what I'm missing from those sets. I may be silly for doing so, but I decided to separate Circle-H and BE into their own sets. In doing so, I've noticed some anomalies that I'd like to resolve, and the best way to do that is to ask other GJ members to do what we seem to like doing best - show off our tools.

Keeping in mind this is only anecdotal evidence, here are a couple of things I've noticed thus far.

1) Pertaining to 1/4" drive sockets, I have yet to see a 12-pt socket marked with circle-H. That is, the only 12-pt sockets I have seen in 1/4" drive are marked "BE". I would also like to know how many socket sizes exist in 1/4" drive, 12-pt, and how they would have been sold (in 12-pt sets or in larger sets that included 6-pt?)

2) Pertaining to 1/2" drive sockets. I have yet to find any /32 fractional sockets marked with "Circle-H". That is, the only /32 fractional sockets I've found are marked "BE".

3) I have encountered sets that were mixed "BE" and "Circle-H" tools. Were they mixed by the owner, the manufacturer, or the retailer?

I'm making some assumptions, but I fully expect my assumptions to be blown up - and that's perfectly fine! I tell myself I'm gathering information for the enjoyment of the hobby, but hopefully it will serve some purpose beyond the gathering of useless information.

Thanks!

Brian
 

twertsy

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I'll get to posting some pics for you tomorrow. Hot water heater went out mid-shower this morning so I have to deal with that after work today.
 

d42jeep

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Here are a couple of 1/4” drive BE sockets, the larger 5-16” one has the hyphen. The smaller one is a rusty conventional 7/32”. The other image shows some 1/2” drive BE sockets with the ever popular 21/32” socket in the middle. Of interest in the third and fourth picture is the two 1-1/8” sockets are different heights and have different logos.
-Don
 

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Private Lugnutz

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I have chosen to not use "long-c" in my descriptions because I have, in my possession, what I suspect to be an early "BE" socket that does not use the long-C scripting these sets are known for.
Regarding my comments in the first post where I mentioned "Major varieties", I recently picked up this unusual 1/2" drive "BE" socket.
- 12-pt, 15-16", no "long-C" Craftsman logo.
Of interest in the third and fourth picture is the two 1-1/8” sockets are different heights and have different logos.
These are early examples of BE production. The difference in height/construction (that shoulder is an artefact of the sockets being cold-broached) and the different logo is because they were made before the mid 1930's. New Britain's contract production for Sears spans the two Craftsman logo styles: the block letter logo was trademarked and used on tools in the late 1920's through mid 1930;s, and the Long C logo was trademarked in the mid 1930's and used on tools until the late 1940's (when the so-called "Heritage" logo (=CRAFTSMAN=) was introduced. See Tool Archives for exact dates. Also examples. And Alloy Artifacts has other examples as well.
 

twertsy

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These are early examples of BE production. The difference in height/construction (that shoulder is an artefact of the sockets being cold-broached) and the different logo is because they were made before the mid 1930's. New Britain's contract production for Sears spans the two Craftsman logo styles: the block letter logo was trademarked and used on tools in the late 1920's through mid 1930;s, and the Long C logo was trademarked in the mid 1930's and used on tools until the late 1940's (when the so-called "Heritage" logo (=CRAFTSMAN=) was introduced. See Tool Archives for exact dates. Also examples. And Alloy Artifacts has other examples as well.

Unfortunately, they list a first use date of 10/1927 for both the underline C and the Block for wrenches/socket wrenches. So, no help there sadly.
 

Private Lugnutz

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1) Pertaining to 1/4" drive sockets, I have yet to see a 12-pt socket marked with circle-H. That is, the only 12-pt sockets I have seen in 1/4" drive are marked "BE".
Brian,

I suspect that finding sets with no 12-point sockets is a function of production time period (late 40’s vs late 30’s/early 40’s), not brand. I'll explain and you can make up your own mind.

Last year, on another board (G503.com), I did a major deep dive on 1/4-inch drive socket sets in the 1940's. This deep dive was prompted by a stark shift in 1/4-inch drive specifications by the US Army in late 1944, from a mix of 12-, 6-, and 8-point sockets to only 6- and 8-point sockets. Almost as if they were using field reports from maintenance depots filled with stories about 12-point service openings being rounded off. Curious, I conducted an extensive catalog study to see what industry was doing. It became very evident that New Britain (including NONE BETTER and Husky), and a few others, e.g., Walden, outside the topic of your thread, followed suit on that shift.

For example, the 1940 New Britain catalog shows a mix of four (4) 12-point (5/16", 11/32", 3/8", and 7/16"), two (2) 6-point (1/4", 9/32"), and three (3) 8-point (1/4", 5/16", and 3/8") sockets. Whether you were buying them individually or in sets (10-, 13-, and 17-pieces). See pages 20 and 21.

But in the 1948 NONE BETTER catalog, only eight (8) 6-point (3/16”, 7/32”, 1/4”, 9/32”, 5/16”, 11/32”, 3/8”, and 7/16”) and three (3) 8-point (1/4”, 5/16”, and 3/8”) sockets were available individually or in 10-, 17- and 34-pc sets. See pages 14 and 15. No 12-point sockets.

In 1948 – and I suspect from 1944 through at least 1948, it doesn't look like New Britain was making any 12-point 1/4-inch drive sockets.

To back that up, I conducted a survey. Numerous collected examples (including GJ members twertsy, d42jeep, and Unaiu) were reported, with photos and configuration details (sizes and number points), confirming the shift. Early war sets had 12-point sockets, late war sets did not.

Craftsman production exhibits the same shift (away from 12-point sockets), but oddly, I discovered slight differences in configurations.

The 1942 Craftsman catalog shows a mix of four (4) 12-point (5/16”, 11/32”, 3/8”, and 7/16”), three (3) 6-point (7/32”, 1/4”, and 9/32”), and two (2) 8-point (1/4” and 5/16”) sockets, individually, or in sets (12- or 16-pc). See pages 10 and 15.

The 1948 Craftsman catalog shows a mix of seven (7) 6-point sockets (7/32”, 1/4”, 9/32”, 5/16”, 11/32”, 3/8”, and 7/16”) and two (2) 8-point (1/4” and 5/16”) sockets, individually, or in various sets. See pages 1 through 4. Note again, no 12-point sockets.

Again, at least as early as 1948 – and wartime references suggest as early as late 1944, it doesn’t look like Sears & Roebuck was selling any Craftsman 12-point midget sockets.

Note that I did not have any Craftsman BE or (H) sets reported in the survey. All New Britain, NONE BETTER, and Husky. (Craftsman is not a very popular choice with WWII collectors outside of Signal Corps sets.) So I don’t know if there was also something peculiar going on between BE vs. (H) with respect to configurations (sizes and number of points). Again, I would suspect not. My hunch is time period. But I will be watching your survey and monitoring the results closely and with interest.

EDIT: I made a bunch of charts (spreadsheets) compiling the results of the catalog study and the empirical survey. If you want to see those and the sets that were reported, link is here.
 
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twertsy

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Ok, got a few minutes. Fitst, been working on a set of bubble-bottom BE for a while now.6e82c826b3326468d1af494bdf95f5be.jpg374291246a3f3fb718d0cdf3b1d3984b.jpg

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk
 

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Rileysan

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Brian,

I suspect that finding sets with no 12-point sockets is a function of production time period (late 40’s vs late 30’s/early 40’s), not brand. I'll explain and you can make up your own mind.

Last year, on another board (G503.com), I did a major deep dive on 1/4-inch drive socket sets in the 1940's. This deep dive was prompted by a stark shift in 1/4-inch drive specifications by the US Army in late 1944, from a mix of 12-, 6-, and 8-point sockets to only 6- and 8-point sockets. Almost as if they were using field reports from maintenance depots filled with stories about 12-point service openings being rounded off. Curious, I conducted an extensive catalog study to see what industry was doing. It became very evident that New Britain (including NONE BETTER and Husky), and a few others, e.g., Walden, outside the topic of your thread, followed suit on that shift.

For example, the 1940 New Britain catalog shows a mix of four (4) 12-point (5/16", 11/32", 3/8", and 7/16"), two (2) 6-point (1/4", 9/32"), and three (3) 8-point (1/4", 5/16", and 3/8") sockets. Whether you were buying them individually or in sets (10-, 13-, and 17-pieces). See pages 20 and 21.

But in the 1948 NONE BETTER catalog, only eight (8) 6-point (3/16”, 7/32”, 1/4”, 9/32”, 5/16”, 11/32”, 3/8”, and 7/16”) and three (3) 8-point (1/4”, 5/16”, and 3/8”) sockets were available individually or in 10-, 17- and 34-pc sets. See pages 14 and 15. No 12-point sockets.

In 1948 – and I suspect from 1944 through at least 1948, it doesn't look like New Britain was making any 12-point 1/4-inch drive sockets.

To back that up, I conducted a survey. Numerous collected examples (including GJ members twertsy, d42jeep, and Unaiu) were reported, with photos and configuration details (sizes and number points), confirming the shift. Early war sets had 12-point sockets, late war sets did not.

Craftsman production exhibits the same shift (away from 12-point sockets), but oddly, I discovered slight differences in configurations.

The 1942 Craftsman catalog shows a mix of four (4) 12-point (5/16”, 11/32”, 3/8”, and 7/16”), three (3) 6-point (7/32”, 1/4”, and 9/32”), and two (2) 8-point (1/4” and 5/16”) sockets, individually, or in sets (12- or 16-pc). See pages 10 and 15.

The 1948 Craftsman catalog shows a mix of seven (7) 6-point sockets (7/32”, 1/4”, 9/32”, 5/16”, 11/32”, 3/8”, and 7/16”) and two (2) 8-point (1/4” and 5/16”) sockets, individually, or in various sets. See pages 1 through 4. Note again, no 12-point sockets.

Again, at least as early as 1948 – and wartime references suggest as early as late 1944, it doesn’t look like Sears & Roebuck was selling any Craftsman 12-point midget sockets.

Note that I did not have any Craftsman BE or (H) sets reported in the survey. All New Britain, NONE BETTER, and Husky. (Craftsman is not a very popular choice with WWII collectors outside of Signal Corps sets.) So I don’t know if there was also something peculiar going on between BE vs. (H) with respect to configurations (sizes and number of points). Again, I would suspect not. My hunch is time period. But I will be watching your survey and monitoring the results closely and with interest.

EDIT: I made a bunch of charts (spreadsheets) compiling the results of the catalog study and the empirical survey. If you want to see those and the sets that were reported, link is here.

This is fantastic work, and the evidence certainly supports your conclusion. It would make perfect sense for Sears to follow along with the rest of the industry as opposed to demanding continued production of something New Britain didn't want to make - especially if the 12-pt sockets were costing money due to warranty returns.

Does anyone know if Sears sold Craftsman sockets individually back in the 30s and 40s? If so, could there be special sizes available to add to the sets? For instance: did the 1/2" drive 29/32" BE socket come as part of a set, sold by itself, or special ordered?

Brian
 

AdrianBoomer

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This is BE, not sure if this helps.

GALLERY]
 

Cf mtn

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hi all, here's what i dug up, thought there where more? wish mine where nice and shiny.
 

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tym

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hi all, here's what i dug up, thought there where more? wish mine where nice and shiny.
Me too. Dumb question: are the BE sockets plain unfinished steel? If so, I may do a vinegar soak.
 

Cf mtn

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Me too. Dumb question: are the BE sockets plain unfinished steel? If so, I may do a vinegar soak.

tym, i'm not sure? the small 1's look chrome like (pretty messed up), the rest?
 
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tym

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^ Those look great! My set is likely from just after WWII. Not being sure if there's some kind of finish, I haven't done much more than a wipe-down with WD-40, and they're still pretty rusty. My 1/2" ratchet looks like plain steel, however.
 

Private Lugnutz

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It would make perfect sense for Sears to follow along with the rest of the industry...
Just so I haven't misled you, note that some Mfgrs that were making 12-point sockets before the war (Bonney, Williams, SK, and Duro) continued making them after the war. On the other side of the spectrum, as a Plomb fan, you may appreciate the fact that Plomb didn't make any 12-point 1/4-inch drive sockets until 1948, when they added a single 12-point socket for the 1/2" service opening only.

Rileysan said:
Does anyone know if Sears sold Craftsman sockets individually back in the 30s and 40s? If so, could there be special sizes available to add to the sets? For instance: did the 1/2" drive 29/32" BE socket come as part of a set, sold by itself, or special ordered?
In the 1942 Craftsman catalog, all sockets, including the /32nds, could be purchased individually (all sockets in all sizes are listed with individual prices and shipping weights - e.g., 19/32, 5 ozs, 37c), or in various sets.

Not all of the sets (90-pc, 43-pc, 31-pc, 17-pc, 12-pc, etc) list the socket contents by size. Some do, and some of those include the 19/32" socket, but some list a quantity and range, e.g. "13 - 12-point Sockets (7/16" - 1-1/16")".

Note that the 1942 Craftsman catalog includes a total of fifteen (15) 1/2-inch drive sockets from 7/16" to 1-1/16", including 19/, 21/, and 29/32". While it's impossible to know for sure which two (2) sockets were not included in most sets that included thirteen (13) sockets from 7/16" to 1-1/16", all evidence points to it being the 21/ and 29/32" sockets. Those are the only two that are never cited overtly in any of the sets, and, as I said above, the 19/32" is cited in a few sets, which leads me to believe it's the one they included in the big sets.

The 1948 Craftsman catalog is further instructive on this point. It only includes thirteen (13) sockets from 7/16 to 1-1/8, and only the 19/32" socket.

Lastly, the catalogs do not distinguish between BE and (H).
 

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Here is a picture I took today of my circle H individual tools. Since they were made before and during the metal restrictions they may or may not be plated. It might not be a good idea to just assume that they are unplated and give them the vinegar bath. Even unplated, New Britain polished the steel adding to the confusion.
-Don
 

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Messages
4,298
Location
Milwaukie, Oregon
Just so I haven't misled you, note that some Mfgrs that were making 12-point sockets before the war (Bonney, Williams, SK, and Duro) continued making them after the war. On the other side of the spectrum, as a Plomb fan, you may appreciate the fact that Plomb didn't make any 12-point 1/4-inch drive sockets until 1948, when they added a single 12-point socket for the 1/2" service opening only.


In the 1942 Craftsman catalog, all sockets, including the /32nds, could be purchased individually (all sockets in all sizes are listed with individual prices and shipping weights - e.g., 19/32, 5 ozs, 37c), or in various sets.

Not all of the sets (90-pc, 43-pc, 31-pc, 17-pc, 12-pc, etc) list the socket contents by size. Some do, and some of those include the 19/32" socket, but some list a quantity and range, e.g. "13 - 12-point Sockets (7/16" - 1-1/16")".

Note that the 1942 Craftsman catalog includes a total of fifteen (15) 1/2-inch drive sockets from 7/16" to 1-1/16", including 19/, 21/, and 29/32". While it's impossible to know for sure which two (2) sockets were not included in most sets that included thirteen (13) sockets from 7/16" to 1-1/16", all evidence points to it being the 21/ and 29/32" sockets. Those are the only two that are never cited overtly in any of the sets, and, as I said above, the 19/32" is cited in a few sets, which leads me to believe it's the one they included in the big sets.

The 1948 Craftsman catalog is further instructive on this point. It only includes thirteen (13) sockets from 7/16 to 1-1/8, and only the 19/32" socket.

Lastly, the catalogs do not distinguish between BE and (H).

I have looked all over the place for the 1942 and 1948 catalogs you speak of. None of my usual sources have the mechanic catalogs. Power tool catalogs - yes. But no mechanic catalogs. Do you have a link?

Thanks!

Brian
 

twertsy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
6,726
Location
Reedville, VA
I have looked all over the place for the 1942 and 1948 catalogs you speak of. None of my usual sources have the mechanic catalogs. Power tool catalogs - yes. But no mechanic catalogs. Do you have a link?

Thanks!

Brian

Do you have something against Tool Archives?
 

jusridin

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
618
Location
Idaho
Here's a fun one. The only BE 1/4 drives I own.
9/32 6 point
1/4 8 point (black finish)
5/16 8 point
Breaker bar is also black finish?
 

Semi-hole mechanic

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,017
While I think I only have one original circle h socket, I do have the speeder, breaker, and the original box from my father's 1947 Craftsman 1/2 drive set. The box is in rough shape, but I still use the drive tools.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Messages
9
Location
California
SOCKETS:

H Series:
Drag Link 1/2" Drive

BE Series 1/2" Drive:
5/8" 12pt
19/32" 12pt
21/32" 12pt
13/16" 12pt
11/16" 12pt
13/16" 12pt
1 1/16" 12pt
5/8" 8pt
Drag Link

BE Series 3/8" Drive:
5/8" 12pt
11/16" 12pt
9/16" Allen Driver

BE Series 1/4" Drive:
1/4" 8pt
5/16" 8pt

EXTENSIONS - BE 1/2" Drive:
10" Long
5" Long

SLIDING T HANDLE - BE 1/4" Drive:
7 3/4" Long

Not sure how I ended up with such a wide array but there they are.
Does anyone know if these series are coveted or if they just run the standard rate of any other socket the same size. I'm trying to sell my entire collection of tools and it would be helpful to know if these are something worth more than the average socket.
 
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