SURVEY: PLVMB tools with "Letter-Letter" code stamps (and ONLY those tools!)

[Private Lugnutz]

Fellow and Sister GJ'ers,

Several years ago @twertsy and some cohorts conducted a study of Plomb Tool Co tools with the letter-letter stamps and published their findings on the old Tool Archives site. It can be found, via Wayback Machine backdoor link, here. The theory, based on examples and analysis, can be summarized like this...

LA: Dec 1941
AB - LB: Jan 1942 - Dec 1942
AC - LC: Jan 1943 - Dec 1943
AD - LD: Jan 1944 - Dec 1944
AE - ?E: Jan 1945 - ? 1945

Crucial to the theory were no examples of tools with Letter-Letter codes outside of those parameters.

Here is a good example from AA of a DOE wrench with a "KC" code (November 1943, in the theory) and a plain steel finish. (Note: AA has ignored these codes.)

http://alloy-artifacts.org/Photos/tools/plomb_oe1820_3030_wrench_usa_kc_plain_f_cropped.jpg

Recently, however, tools have surfaced with letter-letter codes ("UC," "RC," "NC," and others like those) in which the first letter is higher in the alphabet than "L" (i.e., 12th letter, and 12th month), seemingly defying the logic of the wartime tools code theory. We no longer have ready access to the photos in the TA study, the study did not include hammers, which have been turning up with letter-letter codes, it could use a good re-fresh anyway, and I am sure we will wind up with a much larger superset here. We don't want to derail or overwhelm the main Plomb thread, and it will be much more effective to examine, analyze, and discuss the superset of the examples that show up here in this thread, rather than doing so intermittently and all broken up by other tools and other discussions in the main thread.

Hence, this Letter-Letter Code Survey Thread.

Please post any and all Plomb Tool Co tools you have that bear a Letter-Letter code stamp. ONLY THOSE!

- Full photo of entire tool so we know the type (i.e., DOE wrench, DBE wrench, hammer, etc). (A small group of tools will be perfectly fine for this function.)

- Close-up(s) of the Letter-Letter code stamp(s), and, if possible, the rest of the markings, including branding, which should be PLVMB MADE IN U.S.A., and model number (For efficiency, this could also be arranged in a group, if it's easier on you, as long as they're all legible.)

- Description of the finish (i.e., Chromed, Bare steel, etc) especially if it's not obvious from the photos.

- If you acquired a set in which the pieces are reasonably assumed to be original to each other and a box, please say so. While we can never guarantee that kind of custody in collectors circles, it could be important later to note that.

Note: Please DO NOT post tools with Number-Letter codes (e.g., "5A" for 1935) which are well known and unquestionable as date codes from 1928 through 1941.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Paschall hammer. "EB"

 

[Username already in use]

Plomb 1/4" drive ratchet Model number 4749.
Letter letter code is SC
Finish is plain steel

 

[d42jeep]

I will be using my existing pictures and may accidentally post duplicates.
-Don
Chrome plated 1/4” drive extension BB
War Finish DOE wrench DC
Top extension is a Chrome plated 3/8” drive AB
3/8” Chrome plated 1/4” drive socket HC

Chrome plated 11/16” combo wrench AB
War Finish 1-3/16” 1/2” drive socket BC
1/2” Chrome plated 1/4” drive socket AC
Chrome plated 1/2” drive sliding Tee AC
More to follow.

 

[four.cycle]

Plomb 1/4" drive SAE socket set (code stamped on ratchet ONLY. code appears to be VC)

None of the other pieces in the set appear to have any sort of production code on them.
I believe that Don gave me a heads up on the ratchet, which was purchased separately from the rest of the pieces. I think Don may have sent me the spinner as well.

You DO understand that I don't know anything about Plomb, right?

 

[d42jeep]

Since Username and four.cycle posted theirs, I will post the codes from several of my 1/4” drive ratchets.
-Don
From top to bottom of the first picture, plain steel FC, plain steel GC, plain steel PC, dark finish RC, dark finish SC. The next two pictures are cad plated, UC and NC



Dark finish KC
Plain finish FC
Dark finish HC
Dark finish RC
More to follow.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, guys. Keep 'em coming. I am going to try very hard to resist making analytical-oriented observations. I would like to see hundreds of tools posted before we say boo about what any of it means. This thread should mainly be months of photos. I plan to tabulate everything in Excel from time to time. It's the only way to really "see" everything statistically and it will also help reveal patterns, if any. I can't emphasize how important it is for everyone to post ALL their letter-letter tools, though. Not some. Partial postings of haphazard grabbings here and there from various toolboxes could inadvertently skew the data and the conclusions we draw from it.

I will be using my existing pictures and may accidentally post duplicates.

No worries, Don. I will catch them.

You DO understand that I don't know anything about Plomb, right?

No knowledge needed for this. If you have a Plvmb tool and it has a letter-letter code instead of number-letter code, post it. That's it.

 

[d42jeep]

Here we go with some more.
-Don
Chrome plated 1/4” drive sockets. Left to right, 1/2” BC, 3/8” DB, 11/32 EB, 5/16” CC
1/4” drive plain steel (I think) 11/32” BC
3/8” drive 7/16” universal socket dark finish AC
Chrome plated 5/16” x 1/4” DOE DB
Chrome plated 21/32” socket 1/2” drive AC
Chrome plated 1/2” drive extension AC
Plain finish 1/4” drive flex handle DB
1/4” drive Chrome plated 11/32” socket EB

3/8” drive Chrome plated 3/4” socket CB
Another 3/8” drive Chrome plated 3/4” socket GC

 

[MisterEd]

AB - LB: Jan 1942 - Dec 1942
AC - LC: Jan 1943 - Dec 1943
AD - LD: Jan 1944 - Dec 1944
AE - ?E: Jan 1945 - ? 1945

Plomb 5253 Adaptor 1/2 Sq Male x 3/8 Sq Female BC

 

[four.cycle]

@Private Lugnutz -

that set pictured above is the only Plomb I own.

I am in full agreement with you regarding a vast number of samples being required before any rational and valid assumptions can be made, let alone conclusions.

- just my two cents. BK

 

[d42jeep]

Here are some more letter letter marked tools.
-Don
1/4” drive Chrome plated hinge handle with some military provenance. DB

Chrome plated 1/4” drive speeder DC
1/4” drive plain finish 1/2” socket FC
1/4” drive plain finish extension BC
Dark finish 1/2” combo wrench KC
War Finish 3/8” x 5/16” DBE wrench CC
1/4” drive Chrome plated 3/8” socket HC

 

[Private Lugnutz]

1/4” drive Chrome plated hinge handle with some military provenance.

Having Greg Hines IRWIN screwdriver flashbacks looking at that "USAAF" marking! Seriously, though, that could provide some complementary significance before we're through with this.

 

[RTM]

I fished through my Promb Proto Penens Challenger Fleet box, and found the following pieces which seem to meet the criteria stated above.
(Edit, oops, missed one, updated)
Top L 5420 1/2" drive 5/8" Los Angeles, 6F stamp (oh heck, ignore this one, I gotta get back to work)
Top R 4711 11/32" 6pt MADE IN U-S-A- War Finish CC Mark (vertical C over C)
Middle 1218 9/16" combo wrench, Made in USA, LC stamp
Bottom 4749 1/4" ratchet made USA, NC stamp

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, @RTM. Every little bit helps.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I am in full agreement with you regarding a vast number of samples being required before any rational and valid assumptions can be made, let alone conclusions.

Yup. Having said that, I have started tabulating the data in a spreadsheet, which is already up to 61 entries, including those I have extrapolated from AA. And I would like to illustrate the power of any X-Y matrix for analysis, and especially Excel, which provides all sorts of helpful sorting and summation functions, for this kind of study, before the entries get into the hundreds (hopefully). That size database will be a challenge to present.

Here is a view of the data we have so far, sorted simply in alphabetical order by the "Code" column. It kind of looks at the data from the theory's perspective, if you will, with the codes in an ascending sequence, and the rest of the data can be examine from that perspective.



Here is a view of what we have so far, but sorted by the "Tool" column, instead, so we can examine the attribution of codes to types of tools, to see if that eventually reveals anything.



The Statistics on the right are merely tallying things that would be otherwise menial and difficult to count and keep track of, especially as the number of examples climbs, again, hopefully, into the hundreds. The number of chromed (20) vs other finishes (32) is obvious. The others may be less so. What I am doing there is keeping track of unique instances of a marking. The number of unique letter-letter combinations. And then first letters (16), and second letters (4). I forgot to include the weird ratchets in that grab. (Not to get ahead of ourselves, but so far, the only tool with that kind of code - no letters A-L, and all C! - are midget ratchets, which may mean something.)

Again, this is just to show some of the kinds of things we can do with the data in a database. I am not drawing any conclusions. It's way to soon for that. And I'm not going to do this again until we have a big fat whopping number of examples.

 

[d42jeep]

Here are some more I found today in my spares. The first one surprised me so I double checked to be sure.
-Don
Chrome 1/4” drive extension DO (Not C!)
Chrome 1/4” drive sliding Tee FB
1/4” drive Chrome 7/16” socket FB
1/4” drive War Finish 11/32” socket CC
Another 1/4” drive War Finish 11/32” socket GC
Another one I forgot to post.
Cad plated 3/8” drive u-joint AC

 

[RubiconJK]

I went through most of my stuff this afternoon and here is what I have so far and this will be multiple posts. I've not included any of the "OC" or "IC" items yet since I can't be sure if they are alpha or numeric first characters. Let me know if you want those also.
4714 BC War Finish

4710 DC

4708 FC

4709 FB

4710 GC

 

[Private Lugnutz]

DO (Not C!)

Or struck deep. It'll be interesting to see if another one shows up, or if that ends up being the only one and dismissable as an outlier. Right now we've seen nothing but A, B, C, or D for second letters.

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 2
4711 EB

4711 HC

4712 FB

4714 FB

4766 DB

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've not included any of the "OC" or "IC" items yet since I can't be sure if they are alpha or numeric first characters.

Yeah, giving me fits, too. And when an "IC" appear on a socket in a complete set, with other sockets bearing "DC" or "GC" etc, it sure seems reasonable to read it as a letter, not a numeral 1. I'll have to think of a way to handle it so that they're recorded, and I can easily include or exclude.

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 3
4760 GB

4780 DC

4761 CC

4708L EC

4766 GB

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 4
4749 KC
4749 JC War Finish

5218 CC War FInish

5253 CC

5262 CC

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 5

5420 EC

5421 CC

5449 CB

3031 AC
3034 EB

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 6

3332 AB
3018 CC
3020 AC War Finish

8181 GB

8180 AC

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 7

1145 DB

1140 AC

1131 DC

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 8

1125 BC

1122 CB

1218 FC War Finish

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 9

1218 FC War Finish

3040 CC War Finish

 

[RubiconJK]

Post 10 (final)

1131 BC
1137 EC War Finish

1218 FC War Finish

9684 BC

 

[RubiconJK]

I obviously didn't go through my WF pieces for this survey, but did happen to glance at a duplicate that was in a drawer with some of my 54XX items. Its a WF51 that has a "C" in a location near where date stamps are showing up on other non WF pieces. After seeing this, I looked at other WF pieces and this shows up relatively often. Not always, but often enough I thought I would mention it here.

 

[RubiconJK]

Yeah, giving me fits, too. And when an "IC" appear on a socket in a complete set, with other sockets bearing "DC" or "GC" etc, it sure seems reasonable to read it as a letter, not a numeral 1. I'll have to think of a way to handle it so that they're recorded, and I can easily include or exclude.

Here is just one example. All of my Plomb Challenger 3/8 set except one piece are marked with either OB, OC or OD date codes.

 

[RubiconJK]

Or struck deep. It'll be interesting to see if another one shows up, or if that ends up being the only one and dismissable as an outlier. Right now we've seen nothing but A, B, C, or D for second letters.

+1 on deep struck C

 

[Private Lugnutz]

@RubiconJK

First off, thanks for the herculean effort!

Secondly, dude, you have some very handsome Plomb tools! Seriously. Most of them are very dark steel. I have had some over the years, but seeing them all in one place like that is impressive.

Question on your midget pieces, especially the sockets. Did you acquire them together, in a set? I'm actually going to go back up and add that to the instructions, too. That could be important later.

 

[RubiconJK]

@RubiconJK

First off, thanks for the herculean effort!

Secondly, dude, you have some very handsome Plomb tools! Seriously. Most of them are very dark steel. I have had some over the years, but seeing them all in one place like that is impressive.

Question on your midget pieces, especially the sockets. Did you acquire them together, in a set? I'm actually going to go back up and add that to the instructions, too. That could be important later.

My pleasure and thank you very much!

Like most all of my Plomb pieces, the midget items (for the most part) have come one or two pieces at a time. Over time, I've tried to cull out and/or trade for pieces that begin to match up cosmetically. What I've not tried to do (yet) is work on sets that match up or at least closely match up on dates.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I obviously didn't go through my WF pieces for this survey, but did happen to glance at a duplicate that was in a drawer with some of my 54XX items. Its a WF51 that has a "C" in a location near where date stamps are showing up on other non WF pieces. After seeing this, I looked at other WF pieces and this shows up relatively often. Not always, but often enough I thought I would mention it here.

I have a few. It seems different than the other letters (A through Q, as I recall tallying a while ago...) that appear in very tiny subscript on many WF tools, but always immediately following the model number (e.g., WF-21H), as you have pointed out. But I'm not sure what to make of it.

All of my Plomb Challenger 3/8 set except one piece are marked with either OB, OC or OD date codes.

I've always been befuddled by those. They are commonly attributed to 1940, but I've always found it odd for the "O" character to be lopsided, more like an oval on its side than a numeral "0" or a letter "O". For now, I'm going to just leave these like the ambiguous "I" out, or maybe we just address them case by case. I'll post some midget sockets tomorrow to illustrate my point.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

You guys know I move on more Plomb tools than I keep, so I actually don't think I have too many to contribute. My 3/8-drive set is all WF-, so I know those won't have any. I'll check my 1/2-drive set tomorrow. Among my orphans, this is all I have besides the Paschall hammer I already posted.

Offset screwdriver No. 36, "BC"
Angle wrench No. 3220 "BB"
DOE wrench No. 3021 "ID" (which could be a "1D")

 

[d42jeep]

Any tools I have that have I as the first marking I am not including in the survey because my opinion is that the I is a continuation of Plomb’s original date coding system and those tools were made in 1941.
Is that busted ignition wrench chrome plated?
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Any tools I have that have I as the first marking I am not including in the survey because my opinion is that the I is a continuation of Plomb’s original date coding system and those tools were made in 1941.

That's fine, Don. Understand that any that I include will always be annotated (see the Paschall "IB" hammers I already included in my demo-only screenshots) so they don't get lost in the other data. And I will stress that their annotated inclusion in this survey is not necessarily calling them categorically into question as 1941.

Let me put it this way, I can't recall ever not identifying a tool with any "I-Number" stamp as anything other than 1941, for example. That's not just your opinion. Pretty commonly accepted. But I am trying to be scientific, fair, and objective here, so as not to leave out potential evidence. In that respect, IF the letter-letter theory is correct (emphasis on IF), it would theoretically include an "IB", "IC" and "ID" for September 1942, 1943 and 1944.

Also, some tools are pretty clearly 1941. Others, I am not so sure. I think that's where the other markings and possibly some features could eventually be helpful, as well.

Take this group of 6-point 1/4-dr sockets for example. They appear to be the same due to the finish (highly polished steel or chrome, probably the latter).

Pic 1 shows that they are almost certainly from different production lines or factories, and perhaps era. On the first four from the left, the size marking is under the model number. On the last/largest socket on the right, it's not.

Pic 2 shows that they are all letter-letter codes. "IC", "IE", "IG", "IK", and "CC". And we can see that the size marking on that last/largest socket is on the right, just before the letter-letter code ("CC"). If they were all marked the same I'd be more inclined to consider them all letter-letter codes, but, like you, I am pretty sure the "IC", "IE", "IG", "IK" are date codes from 1941. The "IC" and "IE" could theoretically be part of the letter-letter system (Sep 1942 and 1944), but the "IG" and "IK" obviate that. All of which puts a surveyable question mark over the pesky letter-letter code ("CC"), of course.

Shown with an undoubtedly 1941 4749 rat (there is no "IA" for Sep 1941 in the theoretical system) in Pic 3.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Is that busted ignition wrench chrome plated?

Yes. Pretty sure. It can be hard to tell the difference between highly polished steel and chrome sometimes, and also between a really well done and well-preserved cad and dull chrome sometimes, but I am pretty confident on that one.

How sure are you about the 1222 combo, the 5261 extension, and the 5463 extension? Most of yours, like mine, are very unmistakably chromed, tight and shiny, even from here. Those look a little duller, even satin-y to me, though. Reason I ask goes back to my near-disaster story with my 1/2-drive Pebble set. As you may recall, I found it totally fuzzed in rust, box and tools. As you may recall, I assumed it was chromed. As you may recall, I had a terrible fright when I checked on it in the Evaporust bin after an hour or so and discovered it was not. It looks great, like a nice natural steel set, but it's not. See Pic 3 where I am un-hiding the bottom of the hinge handle. That splotchy "grey" revealing the steel underneath is the finish that is on everything, including the sockets.

We know about plain steel, cad, and whatever that phosphate is, probably zinc, that they used. But there are Plomb finishes, sometimes identified as "thin" chrome, that look almost like paint. Not saying it's paint. But it's not chrome. I have seen other examples since my near-disaster.

 

[d42jeep]

If I ID a tool as chrome plated, it’s because there is sufficient evidence. Not all of my chrome plated tools are perfect and shiny. Lots have chrome peel and worn surfaces. Will you be asking other contributors if they are certain of their evaluations? I’ve been spending some time going through my pictures that I could use for other tasks. I’ve tried not to let my opinion of the theory slant the pictures I’ve sent in. When I checked the Wayback Machine to look at Todd’s examples, it was obvious that they were all from his personal collection which wasn’t all that large of a sample size.
-Don