Symmetrical 2-post lift question

[Handyandy23]

That's a 1.5:1 safety factor. I'm surprised it is that low.

As a point of comparison:

• Air compressor tanks designed to ASME Section VIII-1 are about 3:1
• Elevators are about 11:1
• Many Aerospace designs are 1.1:1

Never say "all".. it's rarely true. You obviously haven't seen this:

You're absolutely right - I shouldn't say "all". Obviously by that video there are some very bad lifts and engineers out there. Do you know what brand that is? I notice it doesn't say anywhere in the video. But that's definitely scary! The only saving grace is the crappy pump isn't even powerful enough to lift the full load, probably the only thing saving people from getting crushed.

I guess I'll amend what I said to "most well known brands". If the brand is well-known in lifting, and there are hundreds of positive reviews on the equipment, then I personally feel pretty confident in it. Most of the more reputable companies sell both non-certified and certified versions.

As for the 1.5:1 safety factor, like I said before, I think it comes down to how you're going to use it. If you're planning to regularly load up a 10,000 lb lift with 10,000 lbs, then absolutely knowing there is that safety factor built in is important. If you're only using half the rated weight to begin with, having it re-rated for even more weight is of no advantage.

Safety factors of course also take the usage and risk of overloading / overworking into consideration. An elevator needs a very high safety factor because the likelihood of being overloaded is almost certain. The large majority of people that use elevators have no idea what the designed capacity is, nor do they take it into consideration when hopping into a packed elevator. Aerospace safety factors are lower partially because the users of the equipment are highly trained people that know to use the products for what they are designed for.

I know any Joe Blow can buy a lift, you don't need any special training, but if you're a reasonably competent person who knows the loads you're lifting, you shouldn't need such a large safety factor. With air compressors, there are plenty of possibilities for regulators and equipment to fail and overload the system, but there's no real way to "accidentally" overload your lift. If you somehow load up 15,000 lbs "accidentally" on your 10,000 lb lift, you probably shouldn't be owning a lift or power tools to begin with.

I'm not saying the ALI certification is worthless or doesn't have it's place to be used, but my opinion is that the average hobbyist is using an over-engineered piece of equipment at 150%. And when it comes down to debating ALI vs CE, the argument is even more moot, IMO.

 

[Ironcrow]

That's a 1.5:1 safety factor. I'm surprised it is that low.

Not a complete picture. The ALI Standard has the lift structure designed generally with SF of 3. Hydraulic lines SF of 4. Fasteners SF 4. A proof load is 150% cycled up and down two times.

 

[Ironcrow]

I'm not an expert on lift certifications, nor do I know exactly the differences between ALI and CE

CE is electrical. Analogous US standards would be UL or NEC. All an electrical standard mark on your lift is going to tell you is you won't get electrocuted when you operate it. Or it won't melt at the specified current. The wire insulation doesn't burn. The unit doesn't spew electromagnetic interference to screw up you radio reception. etc.

 

[SlickXJ]

CE is electrical. Analogous US standards would be UL or NEC. All an electrical standard mark on your lift is going to tell you is you won't get electrocuted when you operate it. Or it won't melt at the specified current. The wire insulation doesn't burn. The unit doesn't spew electromagnetic interference to screw up you radio reception. etc.

From ALI's site:

"The CE Mark on a product or machine identifies it as complying with all the of safety requirements established by the European Union. One of the most notable differences between CE and ALI certification is in the area of electrical safety."

On CCQS's site, a Notified Body for CE certification, they list all the things they test for certification, many of which have nothing to do with electrical.

For example, on GSE's site, the Atlas OH-10X is CE certified but if sold in NA, it is sold with a different power unit. Although it voids the CE certification for the electrical portion, the structure and hydraulics remain the same, thus still being structurally safe as far as I can tell.

Also, I used to test life jackets for UL, so I know that UL deals with more than just electrical.

 

[lakeroadster]

Although it voids the CE certification for the electrical portion, the structure and hydraulics remain the same, thus still being structurally safe as far as I can tell.

From the ALI's FAQ.... FAQ Number 3

"Claims that “Lifts are CE approved” bear no relevance to North American lift purchasers. The CE lift standard, EN 1493 is not tougher than ANSI/ALI ALCTV, as some might claim when unable to offer lift models that are ALI certified.

Become an educated buyer – consider the risk of installing a vehicle lift bearing only a CE mark and the possibility that your shop will be “red tagged” for lifts not listed to North American safety standards."

 

[SlickXJ]

From the ALI's FAQ.... FAQ Number 3

"Claims that “Lifts are CE approved” bear no relevance to North American lift purchasers. The CE lift standard, EN 1493 is not tougher than ANSI/ALI ALCTV, as some might claim when unable to offer lift models that are ALI certified.

Become an educated buyer – consider the risk of installing a vehicle lift bearing only a CE mark and the possibility that your shop will be “red tagged” for lifts not listed to North American safety standards."

I saw that. In no way am I saying that a CE certification is as good as an ALI certification. My argument is that the CE certification is still a certification with merit. If I'm running a shop over here, yes, CE is not good enough for most local codes. For my personal garage, it still means that lift was scrutinized and certified. Without paying a few hundred dollars, I cannot view exactly what EN 1493 entails, just the table of contents:

Introduction
1 Scope
2 Normative references
3 Terms and definitions
4 List of hazards
5 Safety requirements and/or measures
5.1 General
5.2 Preventing unauthorised operation
5.3 Control devices
5.4 Control positions
5.5 Duplicated drive systems
5.6 Speeds
5.7 Structural design of the supporting structure
5.8 Driving machinery
5.9 Load carrying devices
5.10 Additional requirements for lifts with balconies
5.11 Limiting the travel of the load carrying device
5.12 Unintended blocking of the load carrying device
5.13 Safety against rupture of mechanical bearing devices
5.14 Safety against leakage
5.15 Additional requirements for lifts with several drives or lifting elements
5.16 Additional requirements for movable and mobile lifts
5.17 Protection against pinching and shearing
5.18 Safety devices
5.19 Protection against damage
5.20 Manually driven vehicle lifts
5.21 Electrical equipment
5.22 Special requirements for vehicle lifts where it is permitted to stand under the load during lifting and lowering movement
6 Verification of the safety requirements and/or measures
6.1 General
7 Information for use
7.1 General
7.2 Marking
7.3 Operation instructions
7.4 Name plate
Annex A (informative) Structural calculations
Annex B (informative) Examples of solutions
Annex C (normative) Design of rope drives
Annex D (informative) Example of information about wind
Annex E (normative) Protection against leakage
Annex F (normative) Additional requirements for cableless controls and control systems
Annex G (normative) Noise
Annex ZA (informative) Relationship between this European Standard and the Essential Requirements of EU Directive 2006/42/EC
Bibliography

 

[SlickXJ]

Don't get me wrong. I still want an ALI certified lift first and foremost. But if I can't find one to meet my needs that is ALI certified, and unless I find evidence of CE being essentially worthless, I'd take a CE certified lift over no lift.

As I research what's out there, my criteria for a lift changes slightly. So I'm more lenient on specs like inside column clearance. I believe I can find an ALI certified lift that is right for me, I just like to play devil's advocate and do my research.

 

[Ironcrow]

From ALI's site:

"The CE Mark on a product or machine identifies it as complying with all the of safety requirements established by the European Union. One of the most notable differences between CE and ALI certification is in the area of electrical safety."

On CCQS's site, a Notified Body for CE certification, they list all the things they test for certification, many of which have nothing to do with electrical.

For example, on GSE's site, the Atlas OH-10X is CE certified but if sold in NA, it is sold with a different power unit. Although it voids the CE certification for the electrical portion, the structure and hydraulics remain the same, thus still being structurally safe as far as I can tell.

Also, I used to test life jackets for UL, so I know that UL deals with more than just electrical.

I used to oversee the CE listing (we subcontracted a service to do the testing for us) mechanized material handling equipment, moving, fixturing, etc. They tested and certified all sorts of electrical performance, electro-radiation, e-stops, safety curtains, and whatever. Never once did the CE testing ever consider whether our equipment could actually hold up it's designed load without breaking in half. This was 5 to 15 years ago, so maybe the CE guys are trying to cast a wider net now.

We would usually get a UL, CSA, and TUV stamp at the same time as there was enough overlap of testing.

 

[Dragfluid]

One move vote for symmetrical hoists, from someone that has used both over a period of 45 years.

 

[SlickXJ]

I used to oversee the CE listing (we subcontracted a service to do the testing for us) mechanized material handling equipment, moving, fixturing, etc. They tested and certified all sorts of electrical performance, electro-radiation, e-stops, safety curtains, and whatever. Never once did the CE testing ever consider whether our equipment could actually hold up it's designed load without breaking in half. This was 5 to 15 years ago, so maybe the CE guys are trying to cast a wider net now.

We would usually get a UL, CSA, and TUV stamp at the same time as there was enough overlap of testing.

Maybe they did. It seems by that EN 1493 that they do test structural and hydraulic safety and operation. I'll make a mental note of that while I'm lift shopping.

One move vote for symmetrical hoists, from someone that has used both over a period of 45 years.

I'm currently leaning that way because I just feel better about them. What ***** is when I was around lifts, I didn't want one, so I didn't really know anything about them. Now that I moved and am looking to get one, I have no access to one. Such is life

 

[SlickXJ]

How important do you guys find it is to have 3 stage arms front and back? I know a lot of people make due with 2 stage arms, but I'm just curious. Many lifts I'm looking at are 3 stage front, 2 stage rear. I'm assuming it just helps in terms of short wheelbase vehicles?

 

[SlickXJ]

I have narrowed it down to these lifts. I'm still waiting on pricing from local distributors for a few models, in which time I'll make my decision. I think the one I'm the most interested in is the SPO10-RA, but that might change once I get a price.

Keep in mind all pricing is in CAD, so deduct about 20% if you're curious what it comes to in USD.

 

[Dragfluid]

Double price for 10" more lift?

Balls!

 

[ob355]

Did you ever look into Mohawk system 1 lifts, I had one installed and very happy with it. Its is certified, no floor plate and you will have no problem standing under it.

 

[zkdiesel]

How important do you guys find it is to have 3 stage arms front and back? I know a lot of people make due with 2 stage arms, but I'm just curious. Many lifts I'm looking at are 3 stage front, 2 stage rear. I'm assuming it just helps in terms of short wheelbase vehicles?

Makes a huge difference with three stage front and rear. Shortor Long you hit where you want with ease. Allows you to rack a lot of cars asymmetrically on it for door opening. I work on 3/4-550 chassis trucks daily with some cars thrown in, wouldn’t have it any other way! For the long trucks it’s the best. Had a f450 with a midmount knuckle boom crane on it, and next to it on identical rack I had an 88 Suzuki samauri. So versatile it’s rediculous

 

[zkdiesel]

Did you ever look into Mohawk system 1 lifts, I had one installed and very happy with it. Its is certified, no floor plate and you will have no problem standing under it.

That chevy pickup truck is knowwhere near racked correctly! It made so cause it’s empty but if it had a real bed(service, dump, tow body) there is no way that would be ok, it’s barely ok there! You need to pick it up via the rear spring hangers, my spo12 would reach them easily where you don’t have enough arm length hence why you went on flat of frame


Prime example there of arm length differences!

 

[Handyandy23]

I saw that. In no way am I saying that a CE certification is as good as an ALI certification. My argument is that the CE certification is still a certification with merit. If I'm running a shop over here, yes, CE is not good enough for most local codes. For my personal garage, it still means that lift was scrutinized and certified. Without paying a few hundred dollars, I cannot view exactly what EN 1493 entails, just the table of contents:

This is exactly what I'm saying - CE certification might be based around European regulations, but it doesn't mean the lift is unsafe, or even less safe than one that is ALI certified. If it's good enough to be called safe for someone to use commerically in the UK, why would it not be safe to use as a hobby lift here?

That quote above from the ALI website is exactly what irks me about them - they are clearly just pushing their own agenda. Nothing in that blurb is educating buyers about why ALI certification is better, or what specifically the differences are. It's just some fear mongering about how you won't be safe if it doesn't have their stamp on it. To me, the lack of factual evidence makes them seem less credible. Maybe it's just how I'm wired, but if someone is telling me how their way is the greatest and there's no other way to do it, I want all the details on what they're testing for and why they do it that way, and how it's different from what the other guys are doing.

 

[Ign]

That chevy pickup truck is knowwhere near racked correctly! It made so cause it’s empty but if it had a real bed(service, dump, tow body) there is no way that would be ok, it’s barely ok there! You need to pick it up via the rear spring hangers, my spo12 would reach them easily where you don’t have enough arm length hence why you went on flat of frame


Prime example there of arm length differences!

True enough, but I lift a GMT900 CCSB that way all the time with a 1000# cage in the bed. I also have to do my '11 F350 CCLB that way, but the bed is empty.

I agree I certainly wouldn't complain about 3 stage rear arms, but don't panic that much. We all do what we need to get by and it works fine.

 

[zkdiesel]

True enough, but I lift a GMT900 CCSB that way all the time with a 1000# cage in the bed. I also have to do my '11 F350 CCLB that way, but the bed is empty.

I agree I certainly wouldn't complain about 3 stage rear arms, but don't panic that much. We all do what we need to get by and it works fine.

The chevy I pick on spring hangers and ford on flat of frame directly before
hanger
Balanced and safe even when doing extreme beating on front end parts. When it has a 2500lb welder in the utility box I don’t even bat an eye.

 

[JSK]

BP has a tall model with higher rise as well - 6" more than standard. New model. Will be made available in standard symmetric as well. A bolt-on top beam extender is also available that makes the overall height of the lift around 174".

http://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/two-post-lifts/xpr-10axls

 

[Ironcrow]

Maybe they did. It seems by that EN 1493 that they do test structural and hydraulic safety and operation. I'll make a mental note of that while I'm lift shopping.

I obtained the EN 1493 standard and looked it up. I can confirm the CE standard adds some verbiage about pinch point guards, some calculation about wind loads (no kidding don't run it up outside in a windstorm in case the whole thing gets blown over) and so forth that aren't in the ETL/ALI[/NEC/UL/OSHA]...and also includes a 150% proof load just like ALI. So, whether OSHA will pay it any attention, it seems a CE lift would be adequately safe like an ALI cert lift.

 

[SlickXJ]

Did you ever look into Mohawk system 1 lifts, I had one installed and very happy with it. Its is certified, no floor plate and you will have no problem standing under it.

I did indeed look at the Mohawk System 1, and while it is an amazing lift, it's far out of my price range. I was quoted $5,900 for it without tax or freight, and that's if I still lived in North Carolina. I'm in Ontario, so I'm looking at $7,500 plus $1,000 for tax and lord knows how much for freight.

True enough, but I lift a GMT900 CCSB that way all the time with a 1000# cage in the bed. I also have to do my '11 F350 CCLB that way, but the bed is empty.

I agree I certainly wouldn't complain about 3 stage rear arms, but don't panic that much. We all do what we need to get by and it works fine.

The BendPak XPR-10S has an option to put 3-stage arms on the rear as well, model XPR-10TS. How much extra cost for the lift would justify the rear 3-stage arms? Like an extra $200?

BP has a tall model with higher rise as well - 6" more than standard. New model. Will be made available in standard symmetric as well. A bolt-on top beam extender is also available that makes the overall height of the lift around 174".

http://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/two-post-lifts/xpr-10axls

That is unfortunately an asymmetrical lift, whereas I'm looking for a symmetrical.

 

[SlickXJ]

I obtained the EN 1493 standard and looked it up. I can confirm the CE standard adds some verbiage about pinch point guards, some calculation about wind loads (no kidding don't run it up outside in a windstorm in case the whole thing gets blown over) and so forth that aren't in the ETL/ALI[/NEC/UL/OSHA]...and also includes a 150% proof load just like ALI. So, whether OSHA will pay it any attention, it seems a CE lift would be adequately safe like an ALI cert lift.

I'm glad we could both come out of our conversation more educated than when we went in

 

[SlickXJ]

I am really currently leaning towards the BendPak XPR-10TS, as long as its quote isn't much more expensive than the quote I got for the XPR-10S, which was a little under $4,300 after tax and freight.

I attached my updated list of lifts with more pricing information if anyone was curious as to quotes I got. Again, prices are CAD.

 

[SlickXJ]

My BendPak distributor is telling me the XPR-10S is 3 stage front and rear. Looks like BendPak is the winner for me

 

[yost69]

I use a Challenger 10k pound symmetrical lift at work and have had no issues with it lifting anything I have tried with it. Sometime the running boards on trucks get in the way but it is rare.

 

[kgp50]

Installed the same model in shop earlier this year. Very impressed with quality and operation!

View media item 79551

 

[lakeroadster]

My BendPak distributor is telling me the XPR-10S is 3 stage front and rear. Looks like BendPak is the winner for me

Aren't those made in China?

 

[Ironcrow]

I use a Challenger 10k pound symmetrical lift at work and have had no issues with it lifting anything I have tried with it. Sometime the running boards on trucks get in the way but it is rare.

If I had to lift those hogs all day, I'd buy two lifts

 

[zkdiesel]

If I had to lift those hogs all day, I'd buy two lifts

Works ok. Do this regularly at day job

 

[575cat]

I am really currently leaning towards the BendPak XPR-10TS, as long as its quote isn't much more expensive than the quote I got for the XPR-10S, which was a little under $4,300 after tax and freight.

I attached my updated list of lifts with more pricing information if anyone was curious as to quotes I got. Again, prices are CAD.

Man that seems high .

 

[575cat]

I am really currently leaning towards the BendPak XPR-10TS, as long as its quote isn't much more expensive than the quote I got for the XPR-10S, which was a little under $4,300 after tax and freight.

I attached my updated list of lifts with more pricing information if anyone was curious as to quotes I got. Again, prices are CAD.

Man that is high , GESUSA show,s 3k to 3200. they used to be free shipping and no tax when I got all of mine .

 

[SlickXJ]

Installed the same model in shop earlier this year. Very impressed with quality and operation!

I'm glad to hear it

Aren't those made in China?

I believe so, but it's ALI and CE certified, so it seems safe.

Man that seems high .

The prices? Well for one our taxes are 13% here, vs like 6.75% when I was in NC. Two, currency value shifts constantly, and places don't always update their prices to reflect that. The price in USD I'd get the lift for is roughly $3,200 after tax and freight included.

It still may seem high even at that, and that's because we usually pay a markup on stuff here in Canada. That's why it's nice being on a border town, I can go across and have my 'murican amenities anytime I want

 

[575cat]

I did not know you were in Canada .

 

[lakeroadster]

Road Trip

Where are you located? (Please add that to you profile)

You could drive to Rotary in Madison Indiana, take a shop tour, speak (in English) to the guys that built it, load the lift onto your trailer, and drive home.

 

[Handyandy23]

There was a couple Rotary's on his short list several posts up, and they were almost double the price of the ALI-certified Bendpak with all the same features.

 

[zkdiesel]

There was a couple Rotary's on his short list several posts up, and they were almost double the price of the ALI-certified Bendpak with all the same features.

As someone who uses them everyday to the limits, I gladly payed the rotary price vs the bendpack

 

[lakeroadster]

As someone who uses them everyday to the limits, I gladly payed the rotary price vs the bendpack

 

[SlickXJ]

I did not know you were in Canada .

Yep. Moved here from humid and hectic North Carolina.

Where are you located? (Please add that to you profile)

You could drive to Rotary in Madison Indiana, take a shop tour, speak (in English) to the guys that built it, load the lift onto your trailer, and drive home.

That'd be 20 hours of driving, plus hotel, plus I'd have to pay 13% tax on it at the border. Not even close to worth it for me. I do have Rotary distributors here, but I think for my first lift I'm going to go with something a little cheaper since I still have to build my garage. Down the road I'll get something beefier.

As someone who uses them everyday to the limits, I gladly payed the rotary price vs the bendpack

I won't be using mine every day, nor will I push it to its limits even close to often. If I was going to use it every day, then I'd definitely buy a higher quality one. Hey, I'm only 23. This won't be my last lift

 

[575cat]

I use both my Bendpacks every day both 10k,s loaded crewcabs & all no issues , this morning had a ram 2500 plow truck with pea rock in the bed for weight just had to be carefull oh well .