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Table saw

BeachBoy

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Hi, I have an old MasterCraft (Canadian Tire) cheap table saw and it's so loose that now the blade is not even parallel to the table/guide.

I'd like to upgrade and would like your opinion.

I see many used ones for sale, from the rusty very old Rockwell/Delta to new DeWalt and some cheaper Delta. One that seems nice and in between the professional ones and cheap ones are the Delta Unisaw.

They range from $750 to $2000 CAD and seem to have a very sturdy rail system as well as large table (would need garage space though).

What are the benefits of that vs a contractor type saw?

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woody 73

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Ask and you shall receive grasshopper...

Starting in 1939 the unisaw models have been a benchmark in the woodworking cabinet saws, so much so that the Chinese copy them 24/7.

The newer saws starting in 2009 have a larger 31" x 40" cast iron table top including cast iron wings; making it easier to cut long pieces of wood.

Standard biesemeyer fence system, (The gold standard of modern fence systems).

Single cast one piece trunion system.

Dual front cranks make it a easy to adjust the blade height.

Dust collection system options.

You can buy and find parts on these saws 24/7.

Simple put you can not go wrong buying a used working model.:rocker:
 

ssdave

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The advantage of the unisaw are 3 fold:

1) Extreme durability
2) Weight and stability
3) Precision

The unisaw is the one that everybody else is compared to. It was the mainstay of shops for 70 years. Parts are available for them if needed because of how common they are.

I just bought an excellent condition 3 hp one with outfeed table and Biesmeyer fence for $250 from a local high school that had got a grant to buy a sawstop. That's an excellent price, I think up to about $500 or $600 is a good price. So, $750 to $1000 CD wouldn't be outrageous.

I've owned 3 heavy saws, 2 of them unisaws over the years, and a couple craftsman, a delta contractor saw, and a Hitachi portable contractor saw. I wouldn't use a light saw if I can help it again. The safety and precision of a heavy duty saw make them incomparable. The only good reason to own a lightweight one is portability.
 

Mr Ratchet

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I like the contractor style as they are way lighter and easier to move around. They don't tend to have the ripping capacity and some of the precision of the bigger saws. I've cut on the Bosch GTS1031, Dewalt DW745 and Makita 2705. I would say that the Dewalt was a little easier to adjust and the Bosch and Makita seemed to cut better (power). I've only looked at the Hitachi C10RJ and it looked like a nice saw along the lines of the Makita. All of these ones would be a great choice for a smaller, lighter saw.
 

rrich1

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I have the Delta 36-725? from Lowes. It's in between a contractor saw and a cabinet saw. Much larger table area, heavy, yet able to be moved around the garage with the mobile base. I have built a router table into one side as well as a storage box in the other side.

What are your plans for the saw? Will it ever leave the garage/shop or do you want it to be mobile and go from site to site?
 

Bluevista

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I was checking out that DW 745 and it will only rip 20 inches???
I would hate dragging out the Skilsaw to rip up sheets for two foot garage shelving or to make counter tops with my table saw sitting there. I'd shell out the extra bucks and move up to the next model to keep from having to kick myself every time I can't use my saw.
If you don't have anything wide to rip that saw is okay. It's really not much different than my 40 year old Toolkraft I take to jobs, same router motor type drive, weight, plastic "iron" composite table and adjustment set up, but it cuts two feet.;)
 

matt01073

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There are many options when looking at Unisaws and depending on floorspace/ power available older saws likely wont have the beismier fence and the fence is worth as much as the saw if you buy one without it and want to upgrade also many unisaws are 3 phase so check what you are buying unless you have 3 phase power . There are also 3 and 5 hp options, and 30 or 52 inch fences and also outfeed tables depending on what you need and have space for. I find the mobile base to be very useful on mine
 

wood02

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Evansville, Indiana
Look at the Powermatic 66, 3 horse. I visited the local lumber (milling) companies and they all had Powermatic equipment. I narrowed my search to three: Powermatic, The General (Canadian) and the Delta Unisaw....I choose the PM66.
 

tarmy

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This...
IMG_0321.jpg

IMG_0324.jpg

IMG_0325.jpg

Start with the PM66...get stuff as you can, extended table, crosscut rig, outfeed table.

Buy a good blade...no ****.

Put a safety stop paddle switch on it.

:beer:
 

BuffettFan

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Check out Sawstop.
You'll pay a little bit more, but may saw you a lot in the long run.
Excellent quality saw, mine has the table extension, can rip up to 52" and the fence is dead accurate.
 

Jimithing616

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Honestly, if your going to spend near $2k then Just bite the bullet, cry once, and get the Sawstop. Not only is it as good or better in every regard to the pm2000 or delta Unisaw but it also has the blade stop safety feature... which, I mean why wouldn’t you want that?! Your finger is worth way more than $2k and the hospital bills will be ten times that should you have an accident!

Like I said, best part is you don’t sacrifice quality of the saw for the blade stop safety feature... even without the blade stop feature it would be hard to argue that the saw stop is any less of a saw than a Powermatic or Delta or General, definitely better than a Grizzly or Shop Fox...

If your not cutting 8/4 hard maple or don’t have 220v then get the 1.75hp Hybrid version...

Maybe 2 times a year Sawstop offers deals through Rockler or other retailers where you get a free Mobile base or over arm dust collection and blade guard for free... this is the best and only ‘deal’ they offer

But honestly, do yourself a favor and get one. For the price you really can’t get a better saw....

They also have a “contractor” saw option that’s less money, but, in my opinion, the best value would still be the Hybrid 1.75HP as it’s a full cabinet saw body, with a smaller 120v motor... most owners with this saw never need any more power, unless they continually rip thick rough sawn boards or process their own lumber, etc... if you mainly work in plywood or 3/4 up to maybe 6/4 stock with the occasional super thick 8/4 or more board though, the saw will be 100% enough for you. Just make sure it’s on it’s own 20amp circuit and get a thin kerf Forrest WW2 blade

Another option is the Dewalt DWE7491 if you are just starting out in woodworking this is a very adequate saw with a 32” rip capacity and super nice fence system, they typically sell around $400-$500

However if you have the room for it, a used contractor saw can also be had for about $500 too off Craigslist, only thing is you have to watch the ads like a hawk as the good deals are gone in minutes... the only saws you find on CL sitting around for sale are over priced ones in the contractor saw market... (cabinet saws tend to sit longer as there is less of a market)

So, if you do have the space and don’t need mobility the Contractor saw option may be better than the DeWalt. Both are a good choice if u want to try out woodworking a bit before you commit to the Sawstop....look at any contractor saw from Delta (ones made from 1995 to 2001 I believe were the best, made in USA, beisemeyer fences, etc)

Another contractor saw to look at is the Jet JPS or older JWTS 10 I believe ... just stay away from the blue in color ones as that means they are pretty old and if they don’t have a beisemeyer clone fence, then it’s only worth like $250... as you’ll need to replace the fence that comes on those with a Delta T3 beisemeyer clone, Incra, or Vega aftermarket fence and rails which will cost about $300

There is also the Powermatic PM63 and 64A that are great saws... they usually have a beisemeyer clone fence too and the best motor out of all the used contractor saw options

Then there’s Grizzly, Ridgid, Shop Fox, Steel City and a few more brand of contractor saw to look at, just remember, no beisemyer clone or unifence for delta then you shouldn’t pay over $300

If you need to upgrade the fence, the Delta T3 is the best bang for buck option, it’s a slightly downsized beisemeyer clone that comes with rails and everything needed to mount it to any saw for $250 I believe

I have owned about 15 tablesaws over the last 10 years... everything from the Dewalt 745 and 7491 to about 7 different contractor saws, (the best being a delta circa the year 2000 that had extension table and true beisemeyer fence) from Jet, Powermatic, Delta, Grizzly, Craftsman and Ridgid, all the way up to 3 different cabinet saws including a Unisaw and PM66... after all of those saws I can honestly say the SawStop is the best, there was nothing those other saws had that the SawStop doesn’t have, and it has one thing they don’t, peace of mind for my fingers!

One caveat to note... older contractor saws or cabinet saws will NOT have a Riving knife and adding one aftermarket doesn’t have many good options (there are some but none that are as good as a stock riving knife) so that’s a consideration... any new saw has to have one by law... so the dewalt will, etc... regardless of what you say about a Saw Stop feature, the riving knife is very nice to have, when ripping a long board, the board will tend to want to pinch in on the blade when deep in the cut, this will cause a kick back which can hurt like hell! (And cause serious injuries) The riving knife stops this from happening and works WAY better than the old blade guard and teethed pawl system on older saws

To answer your question about benefits of a Cabinet saw over contractor saw though... A cabinet saw has the motor mounted to the cabinet itself, not the bottom of the table. This makes it a thousand times easier to make adjustments to the table to blade relationship, meaning you need to true that up by moving the table so that the miter slots are perfectly square to the blade... on a cabinet saw this is done in mere moments by loosening the table and moving it around until it’s square to the blade... on a contractor saw the blade and trunnion are connected to the bottom of the cast table by 4 bolts, so, you need to get inside the saw, loosen those bolts and move the whole trunnion system around to square it to the table, problem is there is little to no adjustment and it’s a pain in the ****... not fun!

Also a Cabinet saw has more power, more weight, larger table, often a better fence but not always, runs on 220v typically, has better dust collection as the cabinet is closed in where a contractor saw is open. However, contractor saws are smaller which can be a good thing, they are easier to move, and therefor easier to sell.

As I mentioned earlier about the “hybrid saw” from sawstop... this is basically a cabinet saw with a smaller motor, so the trunnion and blade are cabinet mounted which is better but it has the 110v less HP motor of a contractor saw... anyway, SawStop is not the only one who makes these, you can find them used from Craftsman, Jet and Ridgid and Grizzly, even Delta... I owned a craftsman hybrid saw model # 22114 and it was a great saw, Ridgid also makes a similar one... the Craftsman I had did NOT have a riving knife but some of them do, I believe they became mandatory around 2010 so any saw made after that should have one!

Wow! That was a lot of typing... but, table saws are one thing I know ALOT about :) ...

although I’m sure someone will chime in and say everything I said was completely wrong! which is completely OK... that’s the best part of GJ is everyone has an opinion and it’s up to you to figure out what will work best for you based on our experiences/opinions.. Good Luck, Update us when you make a purchase.
 
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exmaxima1

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I bought my '69 Unisaw about 20 years ago, and I've been very happy with it. 3hp, Biesemeyer fence. I think I could duplicate it for about $600 on the used market.
 

Two Door

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Echoing BCRadio - I'm surprised that no one has asked you what your use scenario will be, especially since there is such a large span between what you have and what you are proposing.

Are you planning to run large quantities of the same setup? Are you planning to rip thick tough boards (requiring a heavy saw base)? If not, have you considered a track saw? A track saw, combined with a better small tablesaw, might better fit your personal space/functional needs, depending on what they are. People who are only cutting small quantities of sheet goods always say the same - It is a game changer, should have done it sooner.

An alternate might be to get a decent small saw and put it in a Rousseau collapsible table, again depending on your space/functional requirements.
 
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driftpin

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I think the post about the Sawstop & other saws was a good analysis. Safety is its own reward.

I am a hobbyist.and use my saws occasionally, I don't have every day use of them. I have a Powermatic 66 and a 64A, both 10" saws. The 66 is single phase 240 V & the 64A is split-phase, currently wired to 120 V. Both do a great job. The 64A is what I find myself using the most. I also have a Craftsman 12" radial arm saw, split phase wired to 120 V, and another which is 240 V only, the latter I bought new almost 40 years ago, I use it for cross-cutting.

The Sawstop brake can save your appendages. That alone makes it worthy of consideration.
 

JMLangford

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Upstate SC
Hi, I have an old MasterCraft (Canadian Tire) cheap table saw and it's so loose that now the blade is not even parallel to the table/guide.

I'd like to upgrade and would like your opinion.

I see many used ones for sale, from the rusty very old Rockwell/Delta to new DeWalt and some cheaper Delta. One that seems nice and in between the professional ones and cheap ones are the Delta Unisaw.

They range from $750 to $2000 CAD and seem to have a very sturdy rail system as well as large table (would need garage space though).

What are the benefits of that vs a contractor type saw?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The difference between the cabinet saw vs the contractor saw is......the trunions or the saw's guts that holds the motor, blade and all the tilt/blade height mechanisms are all contained within the cabinet....you can lift the table top off completely independent of it all....once adjusted it tends to stay that way
The contractor saw has all it's workings hanging from the top with an outboard motor.....blade alignment and angle adjustments are a bit more finicky for accuracy......plus effective dust collection is hard to achieve

A cabinet saw requires a lot more shop space (especially with the longer fence rails) but you can put them on wheels (mobile base) like the way tarmy has his Powermatic PM66 set up.....I set mine up stationary with a large outfeed table....
OutFeedTable1.jpg OutFeedTable2.jpg OutFeedTable3.jpg OutFeedTable4.jpg

I bought my 3 hp saw new on sale (in 2007) for a little over $1000....Steel City was a new company started by some former Delta employees....




.
 
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RAS61

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The biggest difference between a cabinet saw (Unisaw, PM 66) and a "good" contractor saw is the fence. Put a good fence on a contractor saw like a 1 1/2 hp Delta and you can do virtually anything a cabinet saw does for less weight and money. That's not to say a cabinet saw isn't the better alternative, more like nice to have but not absolutely necessary - kind of like the difference between a Snap On wrench and the best Craftsman wrenches, both get the job done and do it well.
 
OP
B

BeachBoy

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I am in the portable crowd myself and would spring for the DeWalt saw and a track saw.
I have a Makita track saw with 15ft of rail (had to buy it to cut siding panels). The bench saw would be permanent though.

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exmaxima1

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The biggest difference between a cabinet saw (Unisaw, PM 66) and a "good" contractor saw is the fence. Put a good fence on a contractor saw like a 1 1/2 hp Delta and you can do virtually anything a cabinet saw does for less weight and money.

Unisaw and PM66 have multi-sheave pulleys so you can have 3-5 hp motors. The extra power is helpful for full-kerf rip blades ripping thick hardwoods at a good feed rate to prevent burning. Weaker saws are best used with thin-kerf blades and thinner stock.
 

bepjrfan

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There are quite a few options out there. Depends on what you will be using it for. I have a Bosch contractor saw currently and have used it the last 6 or so years. It works well for smaller stuff. Contractor saws are tough when cutting large material. Ripping plywood is a pain in the ****, as the saw doesn't have enough weight and tends to rock a little bit with a sheet of plywood on top.

Switching to a sawstop cabinet saw here in the coming months. Quality on the sawstops are top notch! Mobile bases make them easily movable as well. Definitely recommend going that route. They have some lighter duty options as well.
 

mbatarga

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If you've got the funds and plan to do woodworking definitely investigate Sawstop. They have a contractor model that I believe is US $1300 or so that would likely suite your purpose.
 

mayday1

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I've been using a delta contractor saw with cast iron wings for about twenty years for woodworking.
When set up properly (table top totally flat, blade parallel to the slots, fence, ..etc), its cuts are accurate and reproducible. Still I wish back then I spent
the money to get a unisaw or a powermatic 66, ..etc since all of them will last you a lifetime or longer so the extra cost of a cabinet saw is negligible.
The big benefit of a cabinet saw is dust collection. I would gladly pay the
extra $1K or so for the cabinet saw just to buy back the time I spent cleaning up after using a contractor saw over the years.

On older american saws, the splitter isn't usable for non-through cuts and there is always a danger of kickback if your wood starts twisting soon as you start cutting. I would get a new enough saw that has a riving knife to avoid that
risk.
 

My Old Tools

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Buy a good used Unisaw or PM66 and don't look back. They are both professional quality cabinet saws. Get one with a Biesemeyer or clone or a Unifence. Don't buy one with round rails for the fence.
 

Voi

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I would get a new enough saw that has a riving knife to avoid that risk.

Buy a good used Unisaw or PM66 and don't look back. They are both professional quality cabinet saws. Get one with a Biesemeyer or clone or a Unifence. Don't buy one with round rails for the fence.

If the right price or trade comes up it's possible to retrofit a modern fence to a saw that originally came with round rails. Likewise, there are aftermarket riving knives that can be installed on vintage saws.
 

Jimithing616

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If you've got the funds and plan to do woodworking definitely investigate Sawstop. They have a contractor model that I believe is US $1300 or so that would likely suite your purpose.

I also remembered the sawstop contractor saw with the cheaper fence and 30" rip being like $1300... but, a quick check of the sawstop site today and I found out it starts at $1600 and goes up from there when you add options like the beisemeyer clone fence, larger rip capacity, etc.... tops out at about $2k...

With all that in mind I think I'd get the professional Cabinet saw with 1.75 hp motor... which is $2300 starting, but I'd upgrade the fence for $2470 and if you want the 3hp 220v motor more common to cabinet saws then you'd be looking at an added $430 .... not bad actually
 

Jimithing616

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If the right price or trade comes up it's possible to retrofit a modern fence to a saw that originally came with round rails. Likewise, there are aftermarket riving knives that can be installed on vintage saws.

Have you ever added a riving knife to an older saw? If so, which one did you use? I've seen the options, talked to a lot of guys who have tried them, and the consensus seems to be that they vary from completely useless to OK but still cumbersome and not as good as a stock one... curious to hear what your experience has been

In my opinion, if the price is within the same range of getting a saw with riving knife vs without... get the riving knife!
 

ca90ss

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Voi

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Have you ever added a riving knife to an older saw?

I sure haven't and my recollection from reading about them is the same as yours. I was hoping that yesterday's "okay" was today's "better than not having it".

I have a 1940's Unisaw I rescued from a snow covered deck. Took it apart and got the rust under control and it sits in pieces. Hope to get to it next year and was hoping to get an aftermarket riving knife.
 

sr71

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A do like the safety of the Sawstop but a few things I like better about the current Delta Cabinet saw (3HP or 5HP) over the others:
- More table in front of the blade
- Blade height and bevel adjustment both on front of cabinet saw
- Mass - The Delta is a beast ...much heavier than others
 

mayday1

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If the right price or trade comes up it's possible to retrofit a modern fence to a saw that originally came with round rails. Likewise, there are aftermarket riving knives that can be installed on vintage saws.

Good idea to find an aftermarket riving knife. Except that I googled around and
can't find such a device. There are plenty of aftermarket splitters, but they don't go up and down to follow the blade. I got a biesemeyer aftermarket splitter when I got my contractor saw, it works great as a splitter, but it isn't
a riving knife.

If they make a splitter with adjustible height, it can be almost as safe as a riving knife provided you remember to adjust the height of the splitter whenever you change the blade height.
 

Voi

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Good idea to find an aftermarket riving knife. Except that I googled around and
can't find such a device. There are plenty of aftermarket splitters, but they don't go up and down to follow the blade.

I thought there were true riving knives -- ones that go up and down as the blade is adjusted up and down. If I have time I'll poke around and see what I can find.
 

skunkape1

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If I were in your position I would go with a Unisaw although there have been several good suggestions made here and I don't think you'd go wrong with any of them. A quality table saw is a joy to use but never forget to respect the ways a table saw can hurt you.
 

derosa

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The biggest difference between a cabinet saw (Unisaw, PM 66) and a "good" contractor saw is the fence. Put a good fence on a contractor saw like a 1 1/2 hp Delta and you can do virtually anything a cabinet saw does for less weight and money. That's not to say a cabinet saw isn't the better alternative, more like nice to have but not absolutely necessary - kind of like the difference between a Snap On wrench and the best Craftsman wrenches, both get the job done and do it well.
There can be some big differences, my contractor saw couldn't use a dado blade, the motor was incredibly noisy, it couldn't handle thick hardwoods, big difference in dust collection and it didn't weigh nearly as much. If all you want to do is cross cut a 2x4 then there's no significant difference. Hybrid saws like sawstop has are a nice intermediate, you can run a 3/4" ply without it moving and rip thick hardwoods with a little care to speed and if its too much the belt is liable to give before the motor.
Personally I'll be buying the sawstop, my Hitachi has done wonderfully for me even with the stock fence system. The sawstop has a much better fence from what I've seen that really doesn't require an upgrade unless the one I was checking out in Woodcraft had an upgraded fence, it also has some nice dust collecting setup. Personally I can't stand the ethics of the guy who created it but I can't deny the quality and the utility of his saws especially as I have kids growing up.
 

RAS61

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There can be some big differences, my contractor saw couldn't use a dado blade, the motor was incredibly noisy, it couldn't handle thick hardwoods, big difference in dust collection and it didn't weigh nearly as much. If all you want to do is cross cut a 2x4 then there's no significant difference. Hybrid saws like sawstop has are a nice intermediate, you can run a 3/4" ply without it moving and rip thick hardwoods with a little care to speed and if its too much the belt is liable to give before the motor.
Personally I'll be buying the sawstop, my Hitachi has done wonderfully for me even with the stock fence system. The sawstop has a much better fence from what I've seen that really doesn't require an upgrade unless the one I was checking out in Woodcraft had an upgraded fence, it also has some nice dust collecting setup. Personally I can't stand the ethics of the guy who created it but I can't deny the quality and the utility of his saws especially as I have kids growing up.

I think we're talking apples and oranges with contractor saws, and giving too much credit to hybrid saws. Your Hitachi is probably a direct drive table top model. My Delta 2000 Series Contractor saw has a 1 1/2 hp belt drive motor (same hp as hybrid saws), can use a dado no problem, runs smooth as silk, can cut thick hardwoods (just a little slower than cabinet saws, and the same as hybrids, but how often does this really happen, and what's the rush?), and with my upgraded fence is a joy to use. Would I trade it in on a quality cabinet saw(?) - in a minute, provided I had the cash and room for it. But I wouldn't bother with the more expensive and not significantly better hybrid saw - better to spend a couple hundred more for the saw you really want, and will eventually buy, than this no better middle of the road compromise.

Again, a really good contractor saw is 90% of a cabinet saw, and the equal of a hybrid saw with cash in your pocket - my 2 cents.
 
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ItsNemo

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The new DWE7480 (newest version of the DW745) has 24.5" rip capacity in the same size as the old saw.

If you're a cabinet maker in a woodshop, sure get the full size cabinet saw. For regular household use, the littler contractor saws are the better option. You can bring them wherever you need in the house/yard and you can store them away easily so they aren't eating floor space. With your budget you could also get a track saw and some saw horses to easily do big rips on plywood and have further versatility.
 
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