Tap and die set

[thejudges69]

I used the search function, I tried, tap and die, tap, tap set, die set and got nothing. Maybe it's me, any feedback is appreciated though.

I'm going to sell my snap on (rebadged Irwin/Hanson) tap and die set, simply because they seem so brittle and I've broke several at the most inopportune times. I'm not machinist and don't need a 1200 dollar tap set, but I'd like quality. I'm almost always using cutting oil, not gonna lie, few times I have to simply because I was in a hurry or was maybe just cleaning threads, who knows. But I've had snap on break and then will have a Chinese no name to take over and complete the job with ease.

So, any suggestions?

Do you suggest piecing it together as one goes?

It's been stressed on here about buying something with a distributor close by, for me the closest distributor sells Vermont American, they seem like a beefy set and the couple I have had to buy have done well, so feedback on them if anyone has any.

 

[WhataTool]

Astro is supposed to be sending out a couple sets to GJ users according to a previous thread. If I recall, the purpose of their new kit is taps that are less brittle, for mechanics' use aka meat heads who abuse things.

 

[Advan]

I only have one suggestion, and that is to accept nothing but high-speed steel.

 

[thejudges69]

Oh, I should add, this will be for general use, aluminum, soft steel, some stainless. Shouldn't be anything harder then the stainless.

 

[Katodog]

I've had the Gearwrench 75pc tap and die set for years, probably around 10 or so, maybe longer, and so far I haven't broke a tap, haven't even broke teeth off...even the smallest ones. I don't baby the set but I don't beat it up either. I make sure the drill bits I'm using when tapping new holes is the right size for the tap, and with the smaller sizes I make sure to use good cutting oil. I find that as long as I use proper technique I have no problems. Even using proper technique on other brands I've always had issues with breaking teeth off, breaking taps, etc..

I've owned more sets over the years than I can count and none have ever held up as well as the Gearwrench set.

 

[thejudges69]

Astro is supposed to be sending out a couple sets to GJ users according to a previous thread. If I recall, the purpose of their new kit is taps that are less brittle, for mechanics' use aka meat heads who abuse things.

I wouldn't call myself a meat head who abuses things, I'm usually pretty careful, but no professional machinist by any means

 

[B.S.A. (ret.)]

Just because you've been breaking taps doesn't mean that the taps are the problem. Please understand that I am not passing judgement or criticizing you here; taps are made from a very delicate hardened tool steel. However, if not used correctly, they will break and cause untold issues that I'm sure you are more than familiar with. Try tapping using this technique: for every 3/4 turn forward, turn 1/4 turn backward and re-lubricate the tap and hole with tapping fluid or cutting oil, not WD-40 or some other nondescript oil. Your Snap-On taps are made by one of the best U.S. manufacturers and will perform for you if you do your part. Before selling your good tools at a loss, try my suggestion and see if it makes a difference for you.

 

[B.S.A. (ret.)]

If you are cutting threads in stainless steel, that can be one of the most difficult materials to thread depending on the type or series. another major factor is if you are drilling the correct size hole for the thread you will be tapping. Again I advise you to not sell at a loss before determining if technique or lubricants were a cause of your problems.

 

[T45]

Since you already have the set you do,

just do your self a favour and get HSS. In theory some very expensive non-hss taps may be slightly less brittle, but in practice all the good taps are made for machinists...so HSS is mandatory.

save money by only buying key sizes.

You can buy sets with drills for about 100 each, a total set would be about 300 for metric+sae coarse and fine. that's no-where near 1000 bucks but its also not chump change so make sure you are OK to commit the cash to sit on your bench when not in use.

If that's outside your $$$ to park when not using it, just but them as you need or pre-buy a smaller set of key sizes. you can get pretty far with maybe $150.

Also, but the craftsman thread restrorers on sale for another $50 orso--they will save you alot of grief with taps. you won't be using your good cutting tools for cleaning rust and loctite. they don't break and when they do are $3-4 each from snap on to replace.

just my $0.02c

 

[T45]

edit: Follow up on post #8, IMHO...also make sure you have the correct drills, drill guides to drills square if not using a press, etc. each threading needs its own dril (ie, coarse and fine, etc) and sometimes another to under-drill if hand-drilling.

Get drills preferably in machine length (or at least mechanic), so they are stiffer and less likely to flex. again, hss or cobalt...nothing cheap. this also adds up pretty quickly, so budget accordingly.

 

[d.mcfarland]

I agree that there is either something you're doing wrong or a majority defective product that you are using. Those taps and dies should be good quality stuff. I use TAP MAGIC and know many others who do too. Try that and see how you like it.


On a side note, I really hope Astro sends me a trial set of the taps and dies because I'll find as many reasons to drill and tap holes as humanly possibly just for research sake.

 

[bareass172]

Not sure if this will help or not, but I will say that I had some tapping to do awhile back and I was employing the usual methods and then I decided to try some Boelube instead of cutting oil. I had bought the stuff from MSC for ~$2-3, it's a small tube with solid white lube in it. I rubbed the tap grooves on it and I couldn't believe how smoothly it tapped the hole. The stuff is cheap enough to try it, that's why I had it on hand myself, and I use it fairly often now for that purpose if the tap feels too stiff. Otherwise, I'll echo what most have said - the taps you have aren't bad at all and I'll second the suggestion to buy the Cman re-thread set. The re-threaders have been money well spent.

 

[2oolhound]

But I've had snap on break and then will have a Chinese no name to take over and complete the job with ease.

This should answer your own question. Buy another set of the chinese no name taps or is this just one that you don't remember where you got it from.

Here's some other threads:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320610

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343355

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164442

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333887

 

[6PTsocket]

Astro is supposed to be sending out a couple sets to GJ users according to a previous thread. If I recall, the purpose of their new kit is taps that are less brittle, for mechanics' use aka meat heads who abuse things.

The Hansen sets that are rebranded by almost everybody are carbon steel taps. The ones that are more flexible are high speed steel. Hansen does make hss sets but you do not want to know the price. Carbon steel holds an edge very well because it is so hard. The trade off is hard equals brittle. With propper technique you should rarely break a Hansen quality carbon tap. Drill the correct size pilot hole Tap square to the hole. Use the right lubricant for the metal being tapped. Back up a half turn every few turns to break off the chip. Cutting taps are not for cleaning bent or dirt filled threads.Insted of straighning threads the cut a way metal and dirt is hell on the cutting edge. Get a set of thread chasing taps. Regardless of the label, they are almost all made by Lang/Kastar and not too expensive. High speed is what is used commercially BUT a lot of the lowest quality taps marked hss are junk from China.If you are not careful when tapping, quality hss taps will tolerate abuse better. I used a Hansen set at work for years and don't remember braking one but I replaced the ones broken by some of the animals I worked with, with hss. If you buy a tool truck brand, you are getting Hansen carbon taps. I don't know of any quality hss tap and die set at a decent price. Best bet is to replace em as you need em and use your old box and tap wrenches.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[thejudges69]

This should answer your own question. Buy another set of the chinese no name taps or is this just one that you don't remember where you got it from.

Here's some other threads:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320610

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343355

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164442

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333887

Honestly no, the taps came with my house some 12-13 years ago, I was tapping some stainless in my driveway cause I couldn't get the bumper off for a better option, the snap on tap broke and I remembered them being in this old wooden bench in my garage. So, no it's not a case of j forgot where I got them.

All this info is great, I will take it all to hand and try what I can, I don't recall the cutting fluid I use and right now it's in my toolbox still at my dad's, but I will look at the cutting fluids mentioned above.

Can someone elaborate on the tap guide? What is it and how does it work? I googled it and the ones I'm finding don't work with a T handle, sometimes that's my only option in a tight spot.

I typically cut like said above, I'll go ½-¾ then back it up or out, then oil and cut again same process. It just seems that when I am cutting you can just see the tap flex on that ½-¾ rotation and sometimes it flexes to the point it breaks. Maybe it is me, I won't say it's not, but everything here is helpful information that I will make note of.

 

[thejudges69]

The Hansen sets that are rebranded by almost everybody are carbon steel taps. The ones that are more flexible are high speed steel. Hansen does make hss sets but you do not want to know the price. Carbon steel holds an edge very well because it is so hard. The trade off is hard equals brittle. With propper technique you should rarely break a Hansen quality carbon tap. Drill the correct size pilot hole Tap square to the hole. Use the right lubricant for the metal being tapped. Back up a half turn every few turns to break off the chip. Cutting taps are not for cleaning bent or dirt filled threads.Insted of straighning threads the cut a way metal and dirt is hell on the cutting edge. Get a set of thread chasing taps. Regardless of the label, they are almost all made by Lang/Kastar and not too expensive. High speed is what is used commercially BUT a lot of the lowest quality taps marked hss are junk from China.If you are not careful when tapping, quality hss taps will tolerate abuse better. I used a Hansen set at work for years and don't remember braking one but I replaced the ones broken by some of the animals I worked with, with hss. If you buy a tool truck brand, you are getting Hansen carbon taps. I don't know of any quality hss tap and die set at a decent price. Best bet is to replace em as you need em and use your old box and tap wrenches.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Since you mentioned this, when a hole it messed or dirty, is that where the thread chasing taps will come in? I don't make it a habit, but I won't lie, I've have to to it, you can church that up to lack of knowledge running a tap or die. But, I'm learning here and now.

 

[cajunfirehawk]

So quick question on this topic just to confirm, were the older (80's-90's) craftsman kromeedge considered HSS?

 

[6PTsocket]

Since you mentioned this, when a hole it messed or dirty, is that where the thread chasing taps will come in? I don't make it a habit, but I won't lie, I've have to to it, you can church that up to lack of knowledge running a tap or die. But, I'm learning here and now.

Yes. People even make their own from a grade 8 or for metric, class 10.9 bolt and cut a few slots down the threads with a Dremel and cut off wheel. Any dinged up, bent threads will be cut away with a regular tap, leaving the thread weaker. The chasing tap pushes them back in line and collects dirt in the flutes (slots).

Honestly no, the taps came with my house some 12-13 years ago, I was tapping some stainless in my driveway cause I couldn't get the bumper off for a better option, the snap on tap broke and I remembered them being in this old wooden bench in my garage. So, no it's not a case of j forgot where I got them.

All this info is great, I will take it all to hand and try what I can, I don't recall the cutting fluid I use and right now it's in my toolbox still at my dad's, but I will look at the cutting fluids mentioned above.

Can someone elaborate on the tap guide? What is it and how does it work? I googled it and the ones I'm finding don't work with a T handle, sometimes that's my only option in a tight spot.

I typically cut like said above, I'll go ½-¾ then back it up or out, then oil and cut again same process. It just seems that when I am cutting you can just see the tap flex on that ½-¾ rotation and sometimes it flexes to the point it breaks. Maybe it is me, I won't say it's not, but everything here is helpful information that I will make note of.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[md21722]

Since you mentioned this, when a hole it messed or dirty, is that where the thread chasing taps will come in? I don't make it a habit, but I won't lie, I've have to to it, you can church that up to lack of knowledge running a tap or die. But, I'm learning here and now.

Yes, when the threads are dirty or slightly buggered up, use the re-threader set. Only use a tap when you need to. The re-threaders can remove grime & reform threads. They are better because they don't remove metal like you could with a tap. As mentioned above the re-threader sets are pretty much all the same, only the name on the package changes. C-man, Snap On, MAC, Matco, ...

I don't break out the tap & die set very often but haven't broken any of the ones I've used whether or not its made out of pot metal from China or the Irwin/Hansen carbon steel.

The other advice in this thread is great too.

 

[PeterT]

I recommend you search Craigslist or Ebay for some vintage NOS stuff.

 

[6PTsocket]

I agree that there is either something you're doing wrong or a majority defective product that you are using. Those taps and dies should be good quality stuff. I use TAP MAGIC and know many others who do too. Try that and see how you like it.


On a side note, I really hope Astro sends me a trial set of the taps and dies because I'll find as many reasons to drill and tap holes as humanly possibly just for research sake.

If you are talking about their 39 piece metric set 3940, I see it on line for around 50 bucks. That is insanely cheap. I like AP but I do not believe in Santa Claus, the Easter bunny or a metric tap and die set for 50 bucks. It looks like the TiN coated carbon steel Chinese set many others are selling.

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[larry_g]

Can someone elaborate on the tap guide? What is it and how does it work? I googled it and the ones I'm finding don't work with a T handle, sometimes that's my only option in a tight spot.
.

I'll address the tap guide; Simply put a tap guide helps keep the tap perpendicular to the part being tapped. I used to just drill a hole, on the mill or drill press, in a block of material. Hold the block on the material so that the tap goes through the guide and into the hole to be tapped. Your tap now has to go straight into the hole.

On edit; using the tap guide assumes that the hole to be tapped is also perpendicular to the surface. If you hand drilled the hole and its angle is in question then the tap guide will not help. You can put a drilling guide hole in the same block as the tapping guide.

If your creating new tapped holes, champher the top of the hole to be tapped so the tap has a better chance of getting started. One can also counter bore the hole to clear the tap for the first little bit, making a self guiding hole for the tap.

When making a hole to be tapped understand the hole size and how its related to percent of thread. On tougher materials, or hard to tap machinists will go for a 50% to 65% thread instead of the normal 75%. I'm going to attach one of the charts I like best as it gives tap drill sizes with percent of thread expected.

http://www.guhring.com/documents/Tech/Charts/CutTapDrill.pdf

lg
no neat sig line

 

[pstemari]

The HSS taps I've used are sharper than the carbon steel and hold their edge better.

Irwin carbon steel taps are awful. Even the Chinese HSS taps are usually a big improvement.

You're best off getting individual R&N taps from kbctools.com or Union-Butterfield from Amazon as needed.

For the U-B taps, you can set up a camelcamelcamel watch and pick them up for cheap when the price glitches. Amazon's pricing algorithm randomly knocks the price down to 50-70% off, usually when they have only a few left in stock.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[d.mcfarland]

If you are talking about their 39 piece metric set 3940, I see it on line for around 50 bucks. That is insanely cheap. I like AP but I do not believe in Santa Claus, the Easter bunny or a metric tap and die set for 50 bucks. It looks like the TiN coated carbon steel Chinese set many others are selling.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336475

 

[6PTsocket]

So quick question on this topic just to confirm, were the older (80's-90's) craftsman kromeedge considered HSS?

You'll have to ask the man that owns them. HSS taps are often marked that way.

Since you mentioned this, when a hole it messed or dirty, is that where the thread chasing taps will come in? I don't make it a habit, but I won't lie, I've have to to it, you can church that up to lack of knowledge running a tap or die. But, I'm learning here and now.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[T45]

There were some cman HSS sets branded cman-professional-line. The sets were obviously marked as HSS and still trade for expensive money on ebay.

 

[shockwave]

I believe facom still offers hss taps in there catalogue check with ultimate garage about them there sets are arranged differently than us sets

Greenfield can be expensive in sets and the smaller taps is where they get brittle from carbon steel taps

 

[EOC_Jason]

My 77 yr old neighbor found an old Craftsman Metric & SAE tap & die set, he's selling it on CL... I *think* I remember seeing the taps stamped with HSS on them.

https://fayar.craigslist.org/grd/6036971657.html

If someone is interested in it I wouldn't mind helping out and shipping it for him.

I was at an auction this past weekend, there was this big tackle box, like one of those 5-drawer models... All full of taps & dies of different sizes. Unfortunately I didn't get to see beforehand if they were USA or china so I didn't feel comfortable bidding too high and lost out.

 

[tailshaft56]

Enco and Grizzly both sell tapping machines for under $100. Drill press makes a good guide. Tapping heads are great if you are doing many holes.

 

[6PTsocket]

Enco and Grizzly both sell tapping machines for under $100. Drill press makes a good guide. Tapping heads are great if you are doing many holes.

Enco has been out of business for a few years. Thy were owned by MSC and Enco was sort of their discount store.MSC shut them down. Customers were directed to MSC for what they formerly got from Enco, though not necesarily at the same price.I do not know if everything Enco carried is a available but any kind of tap tool should be. MSC has counter service at the Harrisburg, PA warehouse. That place is big enough to be it's own country.

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[6PTsocket]

I'll address the tap guide; Simply put a tap guide helps keep the tap perpendicular to the part being tapped. I used to just drill a hole, on the mill or drill press, in a block of material. Hold the block on the material so that the tap goes through the guide and into the hole to be tapped. Your tap now has to go straight into the hole.

On edit; using the tap guide assumes that the hole to be tapped is also perpendicular to the surface. If you hand drilled the hole and its angle is in question then the tap guide will not help. You can put a drilling guide hole in the same block as the tapping guide.

If your creating new tapped holes, champher the top of the hole to be tapped so the tap has a better chance of getting started. One can also counter bore the hole to clear the tap for the first little bit, making a self guiding hole for the tap.

When making a hole to be tapped understand the hole size and how its related to percent of thread. On tougher materials, or hard to tap machinists will go for a 50% to 65% thread instead of the normal 75%. I'm going to attach one of the charts I like best as it gives tap drill sizes with percent of thread expected.

http://www.guhring.com/documents/Tech/Charts/CutTapDrill.pdf

lg
no neat sig line

True but for non critical stuff,when doing metric, subtract the pitch from the diameter and drill away. It works for inch too but 32 tpi has to be converted to 1/32 and for sizes under 1/4", like #6 or #8, you would have to look up the actual diameter. Metric wins again

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[leg17]

Can someone elaborate on the tap guide? What is it and how does it work? I googled it and the ones I'm finding don't work with a T handle, sometimes that's my only option in a tight spot.

What tap guide are you looking at?

 

[cheechi]

OK so I have some NOS Vermont American singles, Legacy (made in Japan) singles, Irwin sets & singles, HF Ti coated set, and probably one other brand thrown in there.

Doesn't matter to me what kind of steel it is, I tap slowly with my own because in school I saw how they were abused and broken, won't lie I broke a few learning how to do it right.

If you break a tap it doesn't usually mean you need another material. It means your technique was bad. Maybe it means you need to clear out chips more frequently, use more (or less) or different fluid.

buying taps in singles makes you take notice of what taps you use most, break most, and you become more mindful if it's not just 'one of the taps in the set' so when you use a tap more than twice you need to buy yourself a single. You will have a backup as it gets worn and you are mindful of the cost of replacement since you already spent it.

 

[Mopar367]

Mostly greenfield and dormer taps in my box, all hss. Like mentioned above the carbon steel taps will get you by if you have proper technique to tap holes. I just prefer made in USA brands that's why I went for the quality stuff. I basically piece together tap and die set of the most used sizes, like 1/4, 3/8, 7/16, 1/2, and 9/16. The 3 tap sets from greenfield have bottoming, plug and taper taps for all your needs.

 

[why worry]

Depending on the grade of it stainless can be some of the toughest stuff to tap. Tap magic or Aqua cut rated for stainless can make all the difference in preventing broken taps and dies.
Dave

 

[Dingleburry]

 

[pstemari]

... Tap magic or Aqua cut rated for stainless can make all the difference in preventing broken taps and dies.

For stainless get Castrol Moly-Dee. It's black and nasty but works a champ.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[nes999]

For stainless get Castrol Moly-Dee. It's black and nasty but works a champ.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

I have agree, Castrol Moly-Dee is amazing.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[6PTsocket]

Enco and Grizzly both sell tapping machines for under $100. Drill press makes a good guide. Tapping heads are great if you are doing many holes.

+1 For the drill press. If the object is square enough to lay on the table, I will chuck the tap in the chuck and manually turn it a few times to get a square start. I am not set up for power tapping. I avoid drilling holes I am going to tap with a hand drill.

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[md21722]

I've been looking to update my tap & die sets. It looks like the new tap & die sets from Hansen are Made in China. I saw a set or two on the Matco truck and it was Taiwan. Snap On says theirs are Made in the U.S.A. and the prices seem to reflect this.

SNAP ON 41 pc Metric Tap and Die Set TDM117A $279.95
SNAP ON 41 pc US Tap and Die Set TD2425 $244.95
SNAP ON 25 pc Metric Tap and Die Set TDM99117B $584.95
SNAP ON 25 pc US Tap and Die Set TD9902B $539.95

The equivalents from MAC:
202.99 TD41METS
202.99 TD41SAES
405.99 TD25METS
405.99 TD25SAES

The equivalents from MATCO:
200.55 TD40M
185.00 TD40S
399.95 6095TD
399.95 6094TD

The equivalents from Hansen:
IRWIN Tools Metric Tap and Hex Die Set, 41-Piece (26317) $111 Amazon
Irwin Tools 24606 Machine Screw with Fractional Tap and Die Set, 41-Piece $107 Amazon
HA97311 $230.44 Amazon
HA97094 $292 Amazon

With sales tax, that comes to $1785.91 for Snap On, $1318.44 for MAC, $1283.25 for MATCO, and $801.53 for Hansen.

Can anyone comment on which brands work better than others?

I am leery of Chinese taps, but maybe Hansen is doing a good job with these.