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Taps & Dies

tmcquinn

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This has bothered me for some time. I like watching Stacey David. I think he's a very good teacher. On one of his shows he said that there are two types of threading tools, one for cutting new threads and another for fixing boogered up threads. I'm pretty sure that all mine are for cutting new threads but I use them almost exclusively for repairs. Are there really taps and dies that are just for repairing threads?
 
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rsanter

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Yes and no
There are taps and dies for cutting threads and for rolling or forming threads.

There are thread repair tools that are similar to taps and dies that are for repairing damaged threads.

What's the difference?
The type that cuts will remove material to create the threads you want. If you use them to repair damaged threads then you are just taking the material away that may have gotten mushed into an area they are not supposed to be. In many cases this will be fine but in some cases you won't be left with enough threads to return it to usable.

The type that roll or form are typically big machines that are used in manufacturing.

The thread repair chasing taps/dies won't cut but will try to push or form the damaged thread back to where it should be. Many times this will work but sometimes it does not come out all that well. On hard material or very damaged threads you may have little success and you may even end up damaging the threat repair tool

Bob
 

Ign

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While there is the infamous Craftsman/Kastar thread restorer kit, typically any hex die can only realistically chase threads. You need a round split die if you really want to try to cut new threads. I virtually never use a die from zero, I'll either single point halfway then use a hex die or just find a way to adapt a production threaded piece to the work.

But yeah, even a hex die will theoretically cut out boogered threads while a thread restorer is supposed to "push" them back into place.
 

md21722

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Aqua-Andy

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typically any hex die can only realistically chase threads.

Why do people keep spreading this misinformation here. Is there something magical about the outside shape of the die that determines what the inside is capable of doing? I have several sets of hex and 12 point dies that are designed for cutting threads.
 

Mhyde52

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Why do people keep spreading this misinformation here. Is there something magical about the outside shape of the die that determines what the inside is capable of doing? I have several sets of hex and 12 point dies that are designed for cutting threads.

I don't think he was making reference to the outside shape having to do with the finished product, just that solid dies often **** at making straight threads from scratch. Which I agree with.
 

LB-1911

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This has bothered me for some time. I like watching Stacey David. I think he's a very good teacher. On one of his shows he said that there are two types of threading tools, one for cutting new threads and another for fixing boogered up threads. I'm pretty sure that all mine are for cutting new threads but I use them almost exclusively for repairs. Are there really taps and dies that are just for repairing threads?

Yes

:see:

Jaw Manufacturing Company is a leader in Thread Restoring Files and
Special Automotive Non-Powered Hand Tools


http://www.jawco.com/index.html


48pc SAE & Metric Thread Restorer Kit

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemD...Gx31t8FMg_sKrvJR8ujuXXGzxZH9JqJXbMaAhEr8P8HAQ
 

oldldh

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Craftsman and SnapOn...48pc Thread Restorer Kit SAE and Metric...

The same...

Except for the monetary investment required...

Craftsman $ 54.99...

SnapOn $ 145.95...

HMMM---
 

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asm154

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Nice. Going to need one soon will check out Sears.

Craftsman and SnapOn...48pc Thread Restorer Kit SAE and Metric...

The same...

Except for the monetary investment required...

Craftsman $ 54.99...

SnapOn $ 145.95...

HMMM---
 

asm154

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Any recommendation on a new thread die set? I see Hanson the most. Already have a good tap collection. Application would be in auto repair and some machinery like commercial and ag, mostly light duty.
 

larry4406

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I just bought the Craftsman 48 piece thread restoration kit, USA made, $59 at local sears. only one, their were others that looked different but could not determine country of origin.
 

ecotec

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I just bought the Craftsman 48 piece thread restoration kit, USA made, $59 at local sears. only one, their were others that looked different but could not determine country of origin.

I never see the 48pc at Sears. I only ever see the 40pc, and usually for more than you can find the 48pc set online.
 
OP
T

tmcquinn

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That is exactly what I was hoping to learn and nobody got in a fight over it. Is this really the internet? :)

I can have the Sears setup in 3 days. In addition to restoring the occasional abused thread, can these clean out threads that some 'pro' used red Loctite on?
 

Stevenn1

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Craftsman 42275
Snap-on RTD48

If you go on the Snap-on website under the Repair/replacement parts they have the individual pieces labeled as Blue Point. Ebay has plenty of the Craftsman sets.
 

Eric29

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I have used a tap and die set all of my life to chase rusted threads and have never had an issue. I've done that because I don't have the money to buy two kinds of tools for this. Nothing has ever flown apart on me when I've done this.
 
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mbshop

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Yup, most times I'm either cuttjng new threads or cleaning up really damaged threads. Never had a need for chasers nor had any issues using dies to clean up any threads. Not against them as I tried them a few times but was not satisfied with the results.
 

D45

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Buy a set used, either on Ebay or a pawn shop

I saved tons by buying used over the years

I probably don't have any more than $100 into my 200 piece set, including the tools
 

LB-1911

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That is exactly what I was hoping to learn and nobody got in a fight over it. Is this really the internet? :)

I can have the Sears setup in 3 days. In addition to restoring the occasional abused thread, can these clean out threads that some 'pro' used red Loctite on?

Missed the dissenting opinions and arguments?

:see:

Some basic questions on how to use a tap/die set.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226191

Tap and die vs retread kits.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137702

Thread Restorer or Tap and Die Set
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138020

Looking for thread chaser/restorer set
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87237


Snap On vs. Craftsman Thread Restoring Kit
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115546


The OEM is Kaster/Lang.
Craftsman 48 pc. SAE & Metric Thread Restorer Kit
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-48-pc-sae-metric-thread-restorer-kit/p-00942275000P
 

nbpt100

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Yup, most times I'm either cuttjng new threads or cleaning up really damaged threads. Never had a need for chasers nor had any issues using dies to clean up any threads. Not against them as I tried them a few times but was not satisfied with the results.


This is my experience as well.....I have used a SO chaser a few times in Aluminum and was never pleased with the results. I used a lubricant and went slow. After about the 3rd time I decided to not bother any more.

I almost always have been satisfied with using a tap for cleaning up a thread. If the thread is really bad you probably want to use an insert or drill and tap an oversized thread.

I would be careful on buying used as once they dull they will not work as well and may even be unusable.

On external thread I have always used a conventional die. You do remove more material so it is a judgement call as to how the end result can be used.
 
OP
T

tmcquinn

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I only have the taps & dies for cutting new threads. I have used them more or less successfully (for repairs). I mean, sometimes you have something that's so butchered up that you really shouldn't expect a miracle from a tool. However, after hearing that there is a different tool for repairing threads I started paying more attention. Sometimes when I'm finished the bolt/nut seem looser than they should be and I throw them away and buy new. Maybe not if it's just holding two pieces of sheet metal together but something heavy that rotates does not seem like the place to take chances.
 

T45

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That is exactly what I was hoping to learn and nobody got in a fight over it. Is this really the internet? :)

I can have the Sears setup in 3 days. In addition to restoring the occasional abused thread, can these clean out threads that some 'pro' used red Loctite on?

Yes, cleaning rust and loctite is the #1 job of thread chasers. It saves alot of time vs using other techniques and has good results. Just make sure you still lube or hit the boogered threads with solvent to clean them properly as the new threadlock needs clean metal to work correctly.

Also, to answer the OP....There is also a more sophisticated answer. That is that tool and die makers make ALOT of quality levels and within each quality level there is a bunch of variations.

eg, in taps you hav limit values on the thread pitch. cheap taps and dies don't have these limits because they are not built to such a close tolerance. but all of the better quality tooling pieces have this. ikewise, there are fluted cutting taps and non-fluted thread forming taps (with more expensive pieces in coming in a lot of variations as well).

So amongs the higher end tooling there is a class of thread-forming dies that are considered "thread restoring" dies, built to a tight spec but not designed to cut thread from scratch. They distinct and higher quality tooling than Lang/Kastar or Jawco.

But they are not cheap and not the typical thread chasers talked about here. The Lang thread restorers are built to the same quality as Hardware store nuts and bolts. They don't look at all like precision/machine shop tap and die toolings. But they are functional in the role for which they work.

Beyond their limits, the do make other tools...I guess is the point.
 
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Packard V8

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TI would be careful on buying used as once they dull they will not work as well and may even be unusable.

It's a subject for a master's class, but dull taps and dies can usually be sharpened. Whether it's worth the time and effort to learn how depends on one's interest, how many he'll have to replace over the years and the budget therefor.

A sharpened tap and die cleans the used male and female threads so the existing part can be reused. Just a thing worth knowing sometimes.

jack vines
 

Wamsutta

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So amongs the higher end tooling there is a class of thread-forming dies that are considered "thread restoring" dies, built to a tight spec but not designed to cut thread from scratch. They distinct and higher quality tooling than Lang/Kastar or Jawco.

Do you have a link to those? They sound interesting. I always thought that Lang/Kastar were the only makers of thread restoring dies.
 

Finky198

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Here you go some options other then the Lang/kastar set.

http://handtools.jawco.com/viewitems/all-categories/rethreading-tap-die-file-sets-2?&plpver=10

http://www.threadtoolsupply.com/murray-tools-thread-repair-system.html

http://www.nes.co.il/158905/Nes%2D1025%2DExternal%2D4%2D38%2Dmm%2D5%2D32%2D11%2D2%2DInternal%2D8%2D32%2Dmm%2D5%2D16%2D11%2D4

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/Threading/Dies-Chasers--Thread-Rolls/Hex-Rethreading-Dies?navid=12106026

There are also split dies and adjustable thread repair tools like NES brand... and tons of more tools available in the market they save companies millions of dollars in repair and maintenance costs....drilling threading extracting and repairs can get expensive. Tools are usually cheap compared to operating cost.
 
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T45

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Do you have a link to those? They sound interesting. I always thought that Lang/Kastar were the only makers of thread restoring dies.
53PT24_AS01

53PT21_AS01


GREENFIELD THREADING ($400)
Hex Rethreading Die Set, Series 377,10pcs
Item# 53PT24 Mfr. Model# 403520 Catalog Page# N/A UNSPSC# 0

Link to garinger search page for rethreading (may break in future)

https://www.grainger.com/search?searchBar=true&searchQuery=rethreading

I have a set by Chamption tap and die and they are way better than the kastar and jawco sets. If your threads need "restoration", these dies are way better. Cutting dies again being distinct class of tools (usually quality ones are the split/round dies).

The kastar and jawco stuff is still pretty serviceble because most everyday uses include cleaning up corrostion, dirt, loctie etch. and IMHO they are suitable for this work without a doubt.

Edit: finky beat me too it by a bit. Just a note that jawco is slightly better than kastar, but quite similar overall. The rethreaders made by the tooling companies are made from different materials, which is noticble when you see them.
 
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Wamsutta

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Hey thanks Finky198 and T45.

Just a follow up question:
Which rethreading die would be able to "stand up" mashed threads?
 

Finky198

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I would say it's more about the way you use them that will dictate their longevity...
I have the LANG set and I have broken 2 of the 48. I ordered replacements from snapon.
We use the living hell out of the set and it has stood the test of time....

The Nes stuff is adjustable and has replaceable inserts, I would say it offers a lot of versatility. At the same time they don't always fit as regular die or rethreader would....

Each product has their +s and -s of course.
Adjustable dies can adjust the tolerance
Split die and nes tool can be installed on thread beyond the damaged point and work back.
There are also similar tools for lug nuts that work backwards.

If you every come across a damaged stud and tried to get a nut but couldn't you know what I'm talking about. thread files are great but not a miracle worker by any means and they remove material and tend to be long.
 
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T45

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Hey thanks Finky198 and T45.

Just a follow up question:
Which rethreading die would be able to "stand up" mashed threads?

First caveat, is nothing works on hardened bolts like grade 8 or 12.9.

second, a reforming dies needs the bolt to be close to spec in general to work. much like a tap-drill needs to be close to correct spec. the tools only move so much metal.

third, the colley type and adjustable cutting type may be of use if the damage is beyond the re-threading die. they are better than non-adjustable as the do less damage on the threads during approach to the damage site.

in general, the better-quality rethreading dies are quite good. they are made out of proper hardened toolsteel and are much better at making a crisp rethread.

The kastar type are more prone to clear out the groove of the thread pretty well without forming as strong on the peaks. This is why the function pretty good as cleaners. And also very minor damage they can straigten out.

The cutting dies will cut dmaged threads out of the way, which sometimes is needed to salvage a bolt--ie, because maybe the damage is on a longer bolt and you can still get away with some good threads elsewhwere. The collet type may allow you some flexibility on approach (as noted above).

The round/split dies allow you to not trash good threads on the approach and offer some flexibility to not remove the maximal amount of metal unless its actually needed.

so having choices is helpful, but not always possible. Cross-threading fasteners is a quick way to run up a big expense and sometimes the prevention is worth it.
 
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