Temporary a/c fix?

[ybnormal]

Getting ready to leave on an extended vacation in 3 days and the downstairs outside heat pump decides to run less than optimally (aka, takes a ****). Normally not a big deal except we are leaving for 3 weeks out of the country and we have cats in the house that will be taken care of twice daily by the neighbor girl.
I was able to get the a/c company out here yesterday and it would appear that our 25yr old Goodman is running low on R22 and probably has a leak. The inside upflow closet air handler was icing up. Cost of R22 is insane ($400+ per lb) and may not even fix the issue since potential leak. The tech already mentioned the base cost for installing a bottom line base model is $9000, I'll get more info tomorrow. The way I see it I have several options:

1) leave as is until I get back, running the upstairs unit
issue: not fair to the cats (who are strictly indoors) and what if the upstairs unit (which is much newer) goes out? we'll be gone 18 days and the cats will not be easily re-housed elsewhere

2) arrange to have the newer unit replaced while gone, I have an in-town bro-in-law who can babysit for the install day so that part's easy
issue: I don't get time to review possible options and research for better quotes or deals

3) install a window unit. house is 2400sqft, downstairs half that (1200). we're in a nice neighborhood and I'm not particularly worried about burglars, especially since it would be in backyard and not visible.
issue: is a window unit large enough to cool adequately? and this would have to be done today or tomorrow since we leave in 2 days


other notes, we'll be selling within the next 2yrs so a new unit would be a positive for the buyer compared to a 25yr old no-more-R22 unit

Thoughts? bite the bullet?

 

[CoogarXR]

I don't know where you are, or what the climate is, but if you're worried that your existing unit might **** out while you're gone, run it and a window AC.

I can cool my 2200sqft house with just one 12000btu window unit. But my house is very well insulated, and has one centrally-located upstairs window that is perfect for circulating the AC to the whole house. I also have a web-enabled thermostat so I can see the house temp remotely. Maybe installing one of those will give you peace of mind too. You can set temperature threshold alerts too.

But I am sure your cats will be fine with two ACs running. I don't have cats anymore, but when I did, they preferred to be practically on fire, lol. They would lay in front of the fireplace until their fur was too hot to touch.

 

[WildBill]

Grab an inverter heat pump style window unit from Walmart and throw it downstairs. They work great and the U shaped ones let you close the window most of the way.

 

[ybnormal]

I don't know where you are, or what the climate is, but if you're worried that your existing unit might **** out while you're gone, run it and a window AC.

I can cool my 2200sqft house with just one 12000btu window unit. But my house is very well insulated, and has one centrally-located upstairs window that is perfect for circulating the AC to the whole house. I also have a web-enabled thermostat so I can see the house temp remotely. Maybe installing one of those will give you peace of mind too. You can set temperature threshold alerts too.

But I am sure your cats will be fine with two ACs running. I don't have cats anymore, but when I did, they preferred to be practically on fire, lol. They would lay in front of the fireplace until their fur was too hot to touch.

we're in central Texas and summer is starting to kick in

 

[AA/FC]

If the system is low on refrigerant, then it absolutely has a leak. No question. The system does not consume refrigerant. A system that is sealed 100% will hold refrigerant forever.

How warm does your lower level get when only running the A/C on the upper level? I would think enough cold air should fall down the staircase (with open interior doors, if any) to the lower level to keep the cats happy enough while you're gone.

If you really feel those are your only three options, then I'd go with #3. It's something that you can do yourself, today.... and still have an extra day to verify that everything is working before you leave home for 3 weeks. And if one unit isn't enough, buy two window units.... But don't forget, a decent portion of your upstairs cooling SHOULD fall down to the lower level. Cooler air is always lighter than warmer air.

 

[Wrench97]

Buy your own 5 lb bottle of R22 for $199.00 and a set gauges for $100 and you spent less then the A/C company wants to charge you for a pound of R22
https://icecold.us/product/r22-refrigerant-5-lbs/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium={adname}&utm_campaign={campaignname}&utm_content={adgroupname}&utm_keyword=&utm_matchtype=&campaign_id=21176659398&ad_group_id=&ad_id=&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpZWzBhC0ARIsACvjWROfN7JllbbMyrjc8Wnrv75UvuVth8Egixhw44Bee4W8_Jwqrvz56UQaAv5bEALw_wcB

 

[Mikes61]

Buy a portable A/C from Costco and return it when you get home.

 

[ybnormal]

If the system is low on refrigerant, then it absolutely has a leak. No question. The system does not consume refrigerant. A system that is sealed 100% will hold refrigerant forever.

How warm does your lower level get when only running the A/C on the upper level? I would think enough cold air should fall down the staircase (with open interior doors, if any) to the lower level to keep the cats happy enough while you're gone.

If you really feel those are your only three options, then I'd go with #3. It's something that you can do yourself, today.... and still have an extra day to verify that everything is working before you leave home for 3 weeks. And if one unit isn't enough, buy two window units.... But don't forget, a decent portion of your upstairs cooling SHOULD fall down to the lower level. Cooler air is always lighter than warmer air.

there are no vents on 2nd floor landing, only the return air duct, so floor fan is required to push air downstairs

82-84F, with upstairs doors open, fan at top of stairs aimed down, been like this for the last 5 hrs while we were out and 93-94F outside. house sits on rise, gets full sun for 12hrs due to no shade until 8pm

 

[ybnormal]

Buy a portable A/C from Costco and return it when you get home.

checking....yep, CCo has the same Midea inverter unit for a LOT less than HD. but don't know if in stock and special price ends tonight
have to check in the morning

 

[ybnormal]

price is still good but absolutely none in stock at the 6 local Costco

damnit, gonna have to goto HD and pay $130 more

 

[ybnormal]

picked up the Midea at HD, installed it, got it running....doesn't really fit a 24" window but it is what it is. we'll see how much it cools down overnight with this thing running 24x7

 

[Jim greengo]

Getting ready to leave on an extended vacation in 3 days and the downstairs outside heat pump decides to run less than optimally (aka, takes a ****). Normally not a big deal except we are leaving for 3 weeks out of the country and we have cats in the house that will be taken care of twice daily by the neighbor girl.
I was able to get the a/c company out here yesterday and it would appear that our 25yr old Goodman is running low on R22 and probably has a leak. The inside upflow closet air handler was icing up. Cost of R22 is insane ($400+ per lb) and may not even fix the issue since potential leak. The tech already mentioned the base cost for installing a bottom line base model is $9000, I'll get more info tomorrow. The way I see it I have several options:

1) leave as is until I get back, running the upstairs unit
issue: not fair to the cats (who are strictly indoors) and what if the upstairs unit (which is much newer) goes out? we'll be gone 18 days and the cats will not be easily re-housed elsewhere

2) arrange to have the newer unit replaced while gone, I have an in-town bro-in-law who can babysit for the install day so that part's easy
issue: I don't get time to review possible options and research for better quotes or deals

3) install a window unit. house is 2400sqft, downstairs half that (1200). we're in a nice neighborhood and I'm not particularly worried about burglars, especially since it would be in backyard and not visible.
issue: is a window unit large enough to cool adequately? and this would have to be done today or tomorrow since we leave in 2 days


other notes, we'll be selling within the next 2yrs so a new unit would be a positive for the buyer compared to a 25yr old no-more-R22 unit

Thoughts? bite the bullet?

There are plenty of drop in replacements for r22 that don't cost as much as straight 22.
But $400lb is straight highway robbery for r22,I can still buy it at the supply house for around $1200.00 a jug for straight 22.
The drop in stuff is around $400 for a jug.
Somebody is trying to sell you a new system.

 

[Bert_]

There are plenty of drop in replacements for r22 that don't cost as much as straight 22.
But $400lb is straight highway robbery for r22,I can still buy it at the supply house for around $1200.00 a jug for straight 22.
The drop in stuff is around $400 for a jug.
Somebody is trying to sell you a new system.

That was my thought too but I haven't bought any since last summer. I think I told people about $75 a pound thinking that was high priced!

 

[ybnormal]

well, they might be trying to sell me a new system but it won't happen until after we get back. the window unit is cooling adequately for now after 4 hours, and as long as it doesn't fail we can properly research and get quotes for replacing a 25 yr old system.

 

[Aileron]

Your getting robbed on $400 a pound. This is blatent price gouging and doesnt do anything except give the HVAC field a bad name. System probably only holds about 4 or 5 lbs. IMO opinion, did they find a leak or just dethaw it? You mentioned "probably" has a leak?? It can freeze up for other symptoms also, dirty evap coil, low airflow, etc, so it either has leak or it doesnt. Sounds to me they dont diagnose they just replace after giving a sticker shock on refrigerant and that fixes everything.

The problem is without normal checkups or maintenance , you actually dont know how large the leak is. Could be a minimus leak thats been leaking for a few years and finally got low enough to drop the saturated suction temp down below freezing and cause issues.

We have a local company and they are commison based and always suggest a new system for$ 12- 30,000. I talked to another comapny owner the other day and he always suggests them for competitive bids. Best thing about them is they make the rest look good.

 

[rlitman]

Your getting robbed on $400 a pound. This is blatent price gouging and doesnt do anything except give the HVAC field a bad name...

I see some more likely explanations. First, it could be $400 for the first pound and a much lower price for every pound after that. We didn't get all the details through the telephone game.

Alternatively, it could be that the guy is only interested in installations and gives an FU price for troubleshooting. It's a scummy practice, but when he's got all the work his team can handle booked out months in advance, it may work for him.

Also, it doesn't sound like he charged for the service call (that itself is a small red flag), so $400 to top off a system is reasonable if he's billing it out the gas as a single line item to keep his invoice simpler (and stop customers from complaining about every line item's price).

 

[bonneyman]

I agree with the window unit/mini-split/portable cooling solution. Those were never designed to be permanent, heavy use devices anyway, so grab a few for temp use is a good use of temporary funds.
My brother gave me a used portable unit that I cleaned and keep handy just in case my main unit goes down. Can at least keep the bedroom cool at night and then roll it into the living room for day use. And I have a spare window shaker for my shop so I can work in there during the summer for repair jobs. Just amazing how these small units can be so handy.

 

[Aileron]

I see some more likely explanations. First, it could be $400 for the first pound and a much lower price for every pound after that. We didn't get all the details through the telephone game.

Alternatively, it could be that the guy is only interested in installations and gives an FU price for troubleshooting. It's a scummy practice, but when he's got all the work his team can handle booked out months in advance, it may work for him.

Also, it doesn't sound like he charged for the service call (that itself is a small red flag), so $400 to top off a system is reasonable if he's billing it out the gas as a single line item to keep his invoice simpler (and stop customers from complaining about every line item's price).

$400 for the first pound is robbery just like the $600 capacitors. I heard that all the time , 1st pound out of the drum. No its a windfall if you have 30 customers and they all need 1/2 pd. Just retired from the commercial /industrial side after 40 yrs. Goverment regulated us all into this mess, where are their regulations to control the selling costs? I still like the one where the r22 molecules rounded off so it need to be replaced or the one where the guy painted stars on the 22 drum and called it super cool 22 and would work better than regular 22. I dont know how some people sleep at night.
What I find strange about the whole thing, I quit doing anyside residental work becuase people didnt want to pay, even just a case of beer, or wouldnt return a favor , they where be your best buddy until the house cools down, but find they have no issue forking over andf getting robbed @ $400 for the first pound.

 

[bonneyman]

$400 for the first pound is robbery just like the $600 capacitors. I heard that all the time , 1st pound out of the drum. No its a windfall if you have 30 customers and they all need 1/2 pd. Just retired from the commercial /industrial side after 40 yrs. Goverment regulated us all into this mess, where are their regulations to control the selling costs? I still like the one where the r22 molecules rounded off so it need to be replaced or the one where the guy painted stars on the 22 drum and called it super cool 22 and would work better than regular 22. I dont know how some people sleep at night.
What I find strange about the whole thing, I quit doing anyside residental work becuase people didnt want to pay, even just a case of beer, or wouldnt return a favor , they where be your best buddy until the house cools down, but find they have no issue forking over andf getting robbed @ $400 for the first pound.

You just can't figure people. And you can't do people any favors, because they'll expect such treatment every time they call. Try helping out an old lady on a fixed income and she'll be calling you every week with something she needs fixed for cheap.

 

[Snapped-off]

Same thing just happened to me. Evap coil freezing up. Turns out the coil is leaking. $80 for the first pound (410) $65 for any additional.

It hurt to call someone but I don't have anything but 134 stuff

 

[SVibs]

Same thing just happened to me. Evap coil freezing up. Turns out the coil is leaking. $80 for the first pound (410) $65 for any additional.

It hurt to call someone but I don't have anything but 134 stuff

Plus labor? If so, ouch. I recently paid $300 for a 25lb cylinder, shipping included. $65 a pound is a nearly 5.5X mark up.

 

[Snapped-off]

Plus labor? If so, ouch. I recently paid $300 for a 25lb cylinder, shipping included. $65 a pound is a nearly 5.5X mark up.

Yep. 105 to show up, 35 for labor, plus the gas. They did add on a 10% discount because the owner is a neighbor.

I'm going to see how much they want to charge for the coil replacement and see if I want to buy some 410 gauges and stuff. I found my replacement coil for about $600 online.

 

[rlitman]

Plus labor? If so, ouch. I recently paid $300 for a 25lb cylinder, shipping included. $65 a pound is a nearly 5.5X mark up.

And you got it? That site looks scammy as hell, though I have found a number of positive reviews that appear to be legit. Their prices are WAY below the wholesale prices I'm seeing around here. I guess they're not spending any extra money on web development?

 

[SVibs]

And you got it? That site looks scammy as hell, though I have found a number of positive reviews that appear to be legit. Their prices are WAY below the wholesale prices I'm seeing around here. I guess they're not spending any extra money on web development?

Yup. I've ordered from them twice. Both orders shipped quickly and arrived as promised. And looking back at my recent 410A order, the price was $275 before tax

 

[AA/FC]

And you got it? That site looks scammy as hell, though I have found a number of positive reviews that appear to be legit. Their prices are WAY below the wholesale prices I'm seeing around here. I guess they're not spending any extra money on web development?

I recently purchased a 30 pond tank of Chemours/Dupont R134a from them. It was shipped quickly but UPS had a snag so it took 7 days instead of the usual 4 days to receive a package from California. If you look at their google business listing, they have pictures showing a large brick and mortar building right in Los Angeles. I had a specific question for them so I called their phone number and a real person answered the phone and was very friendly. The best part is, not only do they have the best price for refrigerant, they also offer free shipping.... which is a big savings on a 35+ pound package. They are legit.

They have recently been out of stock on all of their R410a..... I now see they have the generic R410a back in stock (as in SVibs link above) but the Chemours/Dupont is still out of stock. I've been watching to see if they would get more R410a in stock because I was considering buying a tank for myself just to have. It's only going to get more expensive as time goes by. Worst case scenario I can sell it for more than I paid.

 

[rlitman]

Yup. I've ordered from them twice. Both orders shipped quickly and arrived as promised. And looking back at my recent 410A order, the price was $275 before tax

Thanks. Bookmarked! Hopefully I don't need anything for a while.

 

[rust in the eye]

Buy a portable A/C from Costco and return it when you get home.

How do you justify this?

 

[dcg9381]

3) install a window unit. house is 2400sqft, downstairs half that (1200). we're in a nice neighborhood and I'm not particularly worried about burglars, especially since it would be in backyard and not visible.
issue: is a window unit large enough to cool adequately? and this would have to be done today or tomorrow since we leave in 2 days

HD has units that are not "window unit" but window vented, somehow don't produce water (perhaps they vent it)... Pretty easy to put in temporarily, run off 120V. Dunno if you're trying to cool bedrooms/office (that'd work) but they won't distributively cool very well. I used one of these recently with an RV tenant who had her main AC fail.

 

[Bert_]

HD has units that are not "window unit" but window vented, somehow don't produce water (perhaps they vent it)... Pretty easy to put in temporarily, run off 120V. Dunno if you're trying to cool bedrooms/office (that'd work) but they won't distributively cool very well. I used one of these recently with an RV tenant who had her main AC fail.

Commonly called "portable air conditioners" and they do not work nearly as well as a window unit.

But I guess if you don't have a double hung window you use what you can.

 

[dcg9381]

Commonly called "portable air conditioners" and they do not work nearly as well as a window unit.

But I guess if you don't have a double hung window you use what you can.

I didn't know that.. Around here it's "unusual" to have an AC unit sticking out a window and it's a pretty obvious way to gain entry... Not that having a partially open double hung window is any better, but it's less obvious. The install is also easier with the portable units and he's going to take them out.

 

[Bert_]

I didn't know that.. Around here it's "unusual" to have an AC unit sticking out a window and it's a pretty obvious way to gain entry... Not that having a partially open double hung window is any better, but it's less obvious. The install is also easier with the portable units and he's going to take them out.

A lot of them are one hose. That means they take inside air, blow it across the hot condenser coil, then exhaust it outside.

The better ones are two hose. They use outside air instead of taking your cool air and blowing it outside. But they still have the compressor and other hot parts inside the house adding to the heat load.

A window air conditioner puts the compressor and condenser coil outside.

I use a window air conditioner for my house. I guess I've never really been concerned with security, since anyone could walk right in the unlocked front door.

 

[ybnormal]

I see some more likely explanations. First, it could be $400 for the first pound and a much lower price for every pound after that. We didn't get all the details through the telephone game.

Alternatively, it could be that the guy is only interested in installations and gives an FU price for troubleshooting. It's a scummy practice, but when he's got all the work his team can handle booked out months in advance, it may work for him.

Also, it doesn't sound like he charged for the service call (that itself is a small red flag), so $400 to top off a system is reasonable if he's billing it out the gas as a single line item to keep his invoice simpler (and stop customers from complaining about every line item's price).

actually he did charge for the service call because he didn't really want to top off the system and would have had to go buy the R because they don't keep it in stock

 

[ybnormal]

got back yesterday and the system is still running, set at 68F. says it will cool about 500-550sqft, I call BS. it kept the overall downstairs temp to a reasonable 78-80 (about 1250sqft) and we had floor fans running to keep the air circulating as well as ceiling fans so it did reasonably well. also kept the office closed (about 150sqft). I would say that you need about 3 of these to adequately cool the air equivalently to a central unit. the rest of downstairs is open floor plan so no other areas to seal off.
we left the upstairs a/c on regular schedule (75-80F) so that would help with the thermal envelope keeping the downstairs reasonable.
outside temp is currently 99F. checking temps for the time period we were gone .... a few cool days in the 80's , other wise it was typically 80 in the middle of the night and about 95-99 at the hottest

 

[Bert_]

Maybe I missed it. What size did you get?

 

[ybnormal]

Maybe I missed it. What size did you get?

12,000btu/hr
550sqft

 

[Bert_]

12,000btu/hr
550sqft

12,000=1 ton of cooling. I'm sure you ended up with this one since it's about the most you can run on a regular 120v circuit.

This summer I'm using an 8,000btu window unit to cool my 1,100sqft 1st floor. I'm not dealing with outdoor temps of 100* very often, I think our hottest day so far this year was 93*. So far it has done a fine job of maintaining 75* setpoint. Previously I'd been using an 18,000 but it is a lot bigger than necessary and darn heavy to carry up from the basement!

 

[ybnormal]

also got the quotes from them for various system options...and yes, these are heat pumps. I've never heard of the Daikin brand until now. it seems they bought out Goodman in 2012
https://www.building-center.org/goodman-hvac-age/
old system being replaced is a Goodman A24-08 (inside air handler built May 1999) and Goodman CPKE24-1AB (outside built May of 1998) 2-ton unit

going to check with my electric provider to see if they have any rebates for certain SEER levels.

minor differences in scope of work between each quote highlighted in bold blue, system specs are already obvious differences

---

Daikin 2 Ton 21 SEER2 Variable Speed Heat Pump Upflow
$22,239.00
Scope of work:
-12 Year Parts Warranty
-12 Year Unit Replacement
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Air Handler
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Condenser
-Two Stage Cooling
-17.2 SEER2 Efficiency
-Variable Speed Heating
-45% Cooling Savings
-Ecobee 3 Lite WiFi Thermostat
-1 Years FREE Service

---

Daikin 2 Ton Up To 17.2 SEER2 Variable Speed Heat Pump Upflow
$14,590.00 (-$1300 for some kind of "Daikin Fit Rebate" until June 30)
Scope of work:
-12 Year Parts Warranty
-12 Year Unit Replacement
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Air Handler
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Condenser
-Up To 17.2 SEER2 Variable Speed Modulating Compressor
-52% Cooling Savings
-Whisper Quiet operation (59 Decibels)
-State Of The Art Digital WiFi Communicating Thermostat
-1 Years FREE Service

---

Daikin 2 Ton 17.2 SEER2 Two Stage Heat Pump Upflow
$11,802.00
Scope of work:
-12 Year Parts Warranty
-12 Year Unit Replacement
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Air Handler
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Condenser
-Two Stage Cooling
-17.2 SEER2 Efficiency
-Variable Speed Heating
-45% Cooling Savings
-Ecobee 3 Lite WiFi Thermostat
-1 Years FREE Service

---

Daikin 2 Ton 15.2 SEER2 Single Stage Heat Pump Upflow
$12,062.00
Scope of work:
-12 Year Parts Warranty
-6 Year Unit Replacement
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Air Handler
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Condenser
-Single Stage Cooling
-15.3 SEER2 Efficiency
-38% Cooling Savings
-Ecobee 3 Lite WiFi Thermostat
-1 Years FREE Service

---

Daikin 2 Ton 14.3 SEER2 Heat Pump Upflow
$11,039.00
Scope of work:
-12 Year Parts Warranty
-6 Year Unit Replacement
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Air Handler
-2 Year Labor Warranty-Condenser
-Single Stage Cooling
-14.3 SEER2 Efficiency
-T4 Honeywell Thermostat
-1 Year FREE Service

 

[ybnormal]

12,000=1 ton of cooling. I'm sure you ended up with this one since it's about the most you can run on a regular 120v circuit.

This summer I'm using an 8,000btu window unit to cool my 1,100sqft 1st floor. I'm not dealing with outdoor temps of 100* very often, I think our hottest day so far this year was 93*. So far it has done a fine job of maintaining 75* setpoint. Previously I'd been using an 18,000 but it is a lot bigger than necessary and darn heavy to carry up from the basement!

yeah, but I know about those hot humid midwest summers. spent 5 yrs in this area going to college. and.... we don't have basements here, so no built-in cold air reservoir for the house.

 

[chris142]

Can you install a swamp cooler?

 

[Bert_]

I'm not really a fan of their quote. I would want a model #, especially if you have that may different units being quoted.

There's no description of the work to be done. Is it just the outdoor unit, air handler, maybe line set and connect to existing duct? Or redoing some duct?

The variable speed compressor is nice. I don't really need it for cooling but they are great for heating in Midwest winters. Heating probably isn't the bigger concern for you. You are locked into their thermostat.

Nice thing about the 1 and 2 stage units is simpler to troubleshoot and repair. Generally don't heat as well as low temperature.