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Terminal Blocks/DIN Rail Connectors for Panel Relocation

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vtsoundman

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Mar 1, 2016
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I am working on a house renovation in California. A panel needs to relocated (about 20 circuits) - I've gutted the old panel and will be using it as a junction box.

My questions is this: can I use DIN Rail terminal blocks or barrier strips instead of a CF of wire nuts? Code says the blocks must be listed -> some buddies (outside of CA) have said it is fine and accepted practice. What say the Cali based sparkies?

I'm familiar with and have designed equipment using DIN rails...so specing a 1492 connector is no big deal.

Other details:
The new box is within 24" of the old (but the romex cannot be moved as it isn't long enough) so I using the 24" ****** rule and stuffing #12 THHN into 2 x 1" FMC conduits. Single #12 EGC (no circuit larger than 20a) per FMC.
 
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V

vtsoundman

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NorCal
vtsoundman said:
I am working on a house renovation in California. A panel needs to relocated (about 20 circuits) - I've gutted the old panel and will be using it as a junction box.

My questions is this: can I use DIN Rail terminal blocks or barrier strips instead of a CF of wire nuts? Code says the blocks must be listed -> some buddies (outside of CA) have said it is fine and accepted practice. What say the Cali based sparkies?

I'm familiar with and have designed equipment using DIN rails...so specing a 1492 connector is no big deal.

Other details:
The new box is within 24" of the old (but the romex cannot be moved as it isn't long enough) so I using the 24" ****** rule and stuffing #12 THHN into 2 x 1" FMC conduits. Single #12 EGC (no circuit larger than 20a) per FMC.
Click to expand...

No Opinions? How about folks outside of CA?... easiest way to relocate a subpanel without a CF of wirenuts?
 
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matt_i

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My opinion is its non-traditional in residential but millions of industrial control panels work just fine with them every day of the year.

As long as you have the ampacity correct for the conductor I don't see a problem. Its a joint in a box, basically.
 
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Norcal

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If you add more then 6 feet of conductor then AFCI's have to be used, and that will not be hard to to do, be aware &plan accordingly.
 
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vtsoundman

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Norcal said:
If you add more then 6 feet of conductor then AFCI's have to be used, and that will not be hard to to do, be aware &plan accordingly.
Click to expand...
Yup...dropping major coin on afci breakers. I know some people have issues with them...I have not with the newer gen products. Most of the time, if an AFCI trips, there is an issue.

I had ALL the afci outlets trip in my house several times over the period of two weeks. couldn't find the issue or capture it on my Fluke PQ meter -> turns out the 1/0 OH line into my house was actively arcing to the utility bare steel/neutral. Out of the 8 or so strands, 3 were left....and one of the phases was effectively down to a number 10 wire. Ack!!!

The issue I am having is finding LISTED terminals/block/terminal strips. I can find plenty of RECOGNIZED components (including the 1492 connectors)...code spec requires listed...hence my dilemma.

Thx for the feedback.
 
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nsula_country

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vtsoundman said:
Yup...dropping major coin on afci breakers. I know some people have issues with them...I have not with the newer gen products. Most of the time, if an AFCI trips, there is an issue.

I had ALL the afci outlets trip in my house several times over the period of two weeks. couldn't find the issue or capture it on my Fluke PQ meter -> turns out the 1/0 OH line into my house was actively arcing to the utility bare steel/neutral. Out of the 8 or so strands, 3 were left....and one of the phases was effectively down to a number 10 wire. Ack!!!

The issue I am having is finding LISTED terminals/block/terminal strips. I can find plenty of RECOGNIZED components (including the 1492 connectors)...code spec requires listed...hence my dilemma.

Thx for the feedback.
Click to expand...

I'm a little ignorant in this department. What is the difference in LISTED and RECOGNIZED? And does Industrial/Commercial components have to be LISTED? I assumed anything Allen-Bradley, Weidmuller, Phoenix Contact ect was suitable for any type of use.

CT
 
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Norcal

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UL Recognized items are recognized components of UL listed equipment, in order to use them, you need to submit the enclosure & the terminal strips as a assembly for listing, $$$$$$.
 
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vtsoundman

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nsula_country said:
I'm a little ignorant in this department. What is the difference in LISTED and RECOGNIZED? And does Industrial/Commercial components have to be LISTED? I assumed anything Allen-Bradley, Weidmuller, Phoenix Contact ect was suitable for any type of use.

CT
Click to expand...
Basically Recognized is a component used in a larger (finished) system that will then be Listed. When a system becomes Listed, UL validates it is safe to use for the application in the field when we installed per mfr instructions...

A Recognized item is a component that has some the various safety/application evaluated for use...and can only be deemed safe when evaluated in a larger system (basically a controlled environment.)

Example: Some DIN rail connectors may have the current rating, but not be able to handle the SCA (kIA) that can occur during a short.

There are lots of examples where the above does not apply and UL has Listed one 'component' and not another. I think UL ( the dominant NRTL) has dozens and dozens of pages attempting to explain/justify their policies.
 
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vtsoundman

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matt_i said:
My opinion is its non-traditional in residential but millions of industrial control panels work just fine with them every day of the year.

As long as you have the ampacity correct for the conductor I don't see a problem. Its a joint in a box, basically.
Click to expand...

nsula_country said:
I would not think twice using 1492 or equivalent terminal blocks if in an appropriate enclosure. In Industrial settings, wire nuts are amateur!

CT
Click to expand...

Norcal said:
UL Recognized items are recognized components of UL listed equipment, in order to use them, you need to submit the enclosure & the terminal strips as a assembly for listing, $$$$$$.
Click to expand...

FYI...

Don't know how I missed these...this was pointed out on another forum to me.

WAGO has a whole series of connectors that can be mounted on DIN RAIL or in a J-Box that are also LISTED. I've been using WAGOs of various types for years...never realized they had mounting options for them...So I guess I am pretty excited about this (call me a geek all ya like)...

How the hell did I miss this? Wago has LISTED solutions that can be mounted to a DIN rail or other J-Box sol'ns...

http://www.wago.us/media/us/collecti...261593_new.pdf
 
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PCustoms

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VT
vtsoundman said:
I had ALL the afci outlets trip in my house several times over the period of two weeks. couldn't find the issue or capture it on my Fluke PQ meter -> turns out the 1/0 OH line into my house was actively arcing to the utility bare steel/neutral. Out of the 8 or so strands, 3 were left....and one of the phases was effectively down to a number 10 wire. Ack!!!
Click to expand...


How did an issue upstream at the service entrance case the AFCI downstream to trip?
 
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vtsoundman

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PCustoms said:
How did an issue upstream at the service entrance case the AFCI downstream to trip?
Click to expand...
Exactly.

My buddy is a primary inventor/engineer of AFCI at major breaker company. He said they should not have tripped given the location and loading the loading of the circuits. He said it didnt make sense unless noise on the line was somehow causing a trip. RFI /EMI is known to cause AFCIs to trip. There is an article on ARRL about how a Ham radio op was causing nuisance tripping...
 
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vtsoundman

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nsula_country said:
I have used WAGO products. Their newest clear terminals with the flat orange levers are awesome.

CT
Click to expand...
Are they reusuable? I haven't used/specd the newer ones yet. I was looking (for only a few
minutes) for the instructions and wasn't able to find an explicit statement...
 
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manwithtools

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Lebanon, TN
Norcal said:
UL Recognized items are recognized components of UL listed equipment, in order to use them, you need to submit the enclosure & the terminal strips as a assembly for listing, $$$$$$.
Click to expand...

Or be a UL 508A shop who can list the completed assembly as "Factory assembled", not so much $$$$.

There are many variables to this, not trying to simplify this discussion at all. Just suggesting there are other methods to reach a "listed" enclosure.

OP, I think you are fine if your terminals voltage and current ratings are in line with your application.
 
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