The Concrete Underground

[baseten]

I skimmed the entire thread well into the evening and I had to register today to thank you for documenting this for the world to see. I hope your big pour is going well today.

My only comment i'd offer is that I hope you are compiling this story in some ...ahem... concrete way outside this forum.

You are building a 500 year structure, and documenting it in a medium that is likely to be gone in 10 years. Forums wither and die, go through software upgrades and archiving and other changes that tend to break the bits over time. Image hosting is even worse.

The forum is about the conversation and the back and forth that inspires you and us to create better more amazing things, but it's only part of the story. I hope you have a journal or a plan to capture this as some sort of personal coffee table book, bound in concrete and leather (The leather is only necessary to keep the concrete from scratching your concrete coffee table) Future-you and your descendants and theirs will want to know what the hell you were thinking. You are building something that is going to be around for a long-*** time.

 

[offroadsteve]

I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to chime in to let you know I have been following along since the beginning with rapt attention. The whole concept is compleatly amazing, and as others have said, your documentation is incredible.

I am a mechanical engineer by education, but my dad was a structural engineer who specialized in concrete. One of my science fair projects in high school was examining the effects of high-range water reducers on concrete bonding to steel strand. The results were inconclusive, but it was a fun project.

Good luck with your pour today, hope you are getting some of this good weather we finally got here in Virginia!

 

[Vernmotor]

I don't know it been explained or ask but why do you call it a A/C wall ? I am really try to keep my questions at bay LOL

 

[randomtwinkie]

I don't know it been explained or ask but why do you call it a A/C wall ? I am really try to keep my questions at bay LOL

Architectural Concrete wall. It will be exposed, as is, and have no additional covering.

 

[Vernmotor]

Thank you

 

[gowings]

I don't know it been explained or ask but why do you call it a A/C wall ? I am really try to keep my questions at bay LOL

Thanks to You asking, I felt like an idiot trying to figure what that meant. I kept thinking Air Conditioning.

 

[Vernmotor]

Well you know what they say only dumb question is one not ask. I like to ask him more but I don't want to bug him to much.. I would of never thought of Architectural Concrete lol

 

[ConCretin]

Well you know what they say only dumb question is one not ask. I like to ask him more but I don't want to bug him to much.. I would of never thought of Architectural Concrete lol

Sorry bout that. I made reference in a post a while back that I'd would be referring to architectural concrete as AC but it was pretty easy to miss. Please feel free to ask for clarification anytime.

For those who might be wondering, we had a great day placing concrete - everything went very well. I'm beat tonight but will post some pics in the morning. Thanks to all for the well wishes. Zzzzzzzzzz

 

[kerryt1]

It's very satisfying to see someone put so much forethought into a project (of this scale no less), and watch it turn out as intended. Please keep the updates coming, it's awesome to watch and educational.

 

[signcrafter]

Sorry bout that. I made reference in a post a while back that I'd would be referring to architectural concrete as AC but it was pretty easy to miss. Please feel free to ask for clarification anytime.

For those who might be wondering, we had a great day placing concrete - everything went very well. I'm beat tonight but will post some pics in the morning. Thanks to all for the well wishes. Zzzzzzzzzz

I came here just to read about the big concrete placing today I've been reading about all week! I understand I will take this as a good sign that a lot got done. Looking forward to pictures in the morning.

I'm thinking you need to get a secratary to be in charge of taking pictures and posting thme! Or a live time lapse camera we can all watch!

 

[Jimbo..]

I love this thread. That 75 degree corner looks like a plane could crash into it and it wouldn't even wake you up.

 

[ConCretin]

Yesterday was a perfect day for placing concrete. Mostly sunny and 45-55 degrees. We started with the LiteDeck that forms the lower roof for the house.

Since there is so much vibration required to work the concrete into all the nooks and crannies, we basically spread out the first 10 yards and got out of the way of the finishers. They started with the hand work - troweling and screeding the concrete around the edges to grade lines we'd set on the forms.

In between the forms they use a laser to set 'wet pads'.

Then they use the vibrascreed to establish strips of the slab to grade between the pads or edges- double checking with the laser. A skilled operator can lay a very flat floor with a vibrascreed but it takes constant attention to ensure you're on grade. It has the added benefit of providing a little extra consolidation and bringing a nice cream to the top for follow on finishing operations.

Finally they use these flat areas to guide the vibrascreed for the areas in between. Two skilled rakers are needed to ensure the proper amount of concrete behind the screed. Too much and the screed can't cut it to grade - too little and you get low spots.

The final operation in this case is bull floating, the last of which was done from a ladder. This is a roof deck that will be covered so it just needs to be flat.

And the finished product;

We did have one new experience with the LiteDeck. The styrofoam under the integral beams is only a couple inches thick and can't support a man's weight. Apparently someone stepped into the beam and in a couple spots and didn't realize they'd weakened the foam because all of a sudden it's raining concrete below.

Caused a bit of excitement as the shouts to "hold up, hold up!" went out - anyone who's been on a concrete crew knows what I'm talking about. A piece of plywood screwed to panel from below quickly staunched the flow of concrete and we were back at it.

Meanwhile the form crews were taking care of the last minute details. This is a rustication strip (I really should do a glossary) we added the top of the 75 degree wall. The slab pours out over this wall then another AC wall will continue up to support the second story roof. It's pretty much impossible to make construction joints look decent so we'll hide them at the bottom of little 'slots'.

We started the next operation by dumping the last of the concrete into the ICFs so we could start the AC wall with a fresh truck with high range water reducer.

When the next truck came we moved on the the 75 degree wall. I was up on the wall for this one so I didn't get many photos but you guys have seen the process with the external vibrators before.

Once the wall was done, we went back to the ICFs.

We placed the ICFs in two lifts, vibrating each lift to ensure consolidation. Just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Finally here's a couple shots to give you the big picture;

All and all, a great day. We placed a total of 56 yards and as far as I can tell everything came out great. I'm hopeful the 75 degree wall is our best effort at AC to date. As with most things, just when you seem to be hitting your stride, you finish.

Next week we'll try for the second floor of the house and finish up the ICF and the concrete column in the garage.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Make you think back about how we managed levels before lasers came along...

 

[ConCretin]

I skimmed the entire thread well into the evening and I had to register today to thank you for documenting this for the world to see. I hope your big pour is going well today.

My only comment i'd offer is that I hope you are compiling this story in some ...ahem... concrete way outside this forum.

Thanks for all the nice comments baseten. I'm honored you thought enough of our endeavor to join up.

I do intend to create some form of hard copy of this. I'm sure it will be fun to look back on especially all the banter.

I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to chime in to let you know I have been following along since the beginning with rapt attention.

Thank you as well offroad. Glad to have you with us.



I can't tell you how humbled I am by all the positive comments. It doesn't seem appropriate to 'quote' you and re-post your compliments but I sincerely appreciate each and every one. To have your work respected by guys on a site dedicated to garages is high praise indeed. Thanks.

 

[OHSCrifle]

I do intend to create some form of hard copy of this. I'm sure it will be fun to look back on especially all the banter.

At very least, use the "view whole thread" view (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145073&showall=1) and print it all into a PDF document.. before the photos eventually disappears when some hosing company gets bought out.

Imagine using a clear hose "water level" for all this stuff... technology is great.

 

[hobbitss]

Make you think back about how we managed levels before lasers came along...

Line & Grade Engineers with Transits, Rods and Levels, String Lines, Chalk Lines, 4 foot Levels, etc....

I used to work Line & Grade on Commercial Jobs long ago....

 

[Woogeroo]

It's really coming together... this is a fun thread to follow along with.

-W

 

[Oggy]

I understand the weakening of the litedeck,I'm assuming you'll be able to hide the missing litedeck in that area by the ceiling? How much of a mess did it create? Sorry to focus on the single flaw, but it's the only one... inquiring mind wants to know...

Love the build though, wish I had the money to do this...

 

[mr. h]

Really enjoying this thread, it is the reason I joined this forum. Have sense found other great threads but this is still the best I have seen. Love the architectural style and the process is very interesting. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

On a side note, would love a glossary and the full plans would be cool if you post them. I am not in construction and really don't know what most of what your talking about is but still a blast to read.

 

[Thedoc14]

So that hole through the foam, is that outside or inside the second storey, it wont be effected by 3 feet of snow later on without the foam under or did you manage to push the foam back up in place also?

You must be getting a little happy how she is turning out so far, we are excited to see it all coming together for you..

 

[ConCretin]

It's been mentioned a number of times that a glossary would be helpful in understanding the terminology and acronyms used in the thread - so I started one in the first post.

I did a quick list of terms that came immediately to mind. If you guys can help me out by suggesting additional ones, I'll add em as we go.

Everyone has been so great with their support, I want to do everything I can to make it as interesting as possible. Feelin the pressure to raise the bar.

Edit; Well that idea didn't last long. There's apparently a 10,000 letter limit on a post. I used the first post so it would be easy to find. Any suggestions?

 

[Vernmotor]

Only Idea I got. would be make a new post and when you could put a link to it where ever you see fit. like in the first post.

 

[kerryt1]

Make a separate thread called the concrete glossary or something. It would useful for everyone anyway, and you can just link to it as needed.

 

[hpw]

How do some web sites make the "word" a hyperlink where u can just click and it will take you to a definition?

 

[ConCretin]

The Concrete Underground Glossary

I started this thread to serve as a glossary for the main thread that I can link to. Please feel free to suggest additional terms. Thanks.

Air Entrained Concrete - Concrete that has been treated with a chemical admixture that produces millions of microscopic air bubbles that allow it to expand and contract under freeze / thaw conditions without damage.

Architectural concrete (AC) - Concrete that will be exposed to view and is constructed in a manner that results in a smooth uniform surface with minimal form lines.

Blockout - Formwork to create an opening in a concrete wall or floor.

Buck - A form that creates a door or window opening in an ICF wall and stays in place to provide a nailing surface for the door or window and finishes.

Cast in Place (CIP) - Traditional formed concrete where the forms are removed after the concrete sets

Control Joint - A saw cut, formed or tooled groove in concrete intended to create a plane of weakness that encourages a controlled and easily hidden shrinkage crack.

Compressive Strength - The primary measure of concrete strength measured in pounds per square inch. A typical residential foundation might use a '3,000 pound mix' while an elevated slab would typically require a 5,000 psi concrete.

Curing - Procedures for preventing the premature drying of concrete to ensure adequate water remains to allow it to reach full design strength.

Dowels - Reinforcing bars that protrude from the concrete to connect it to future wall or slab placements.

Falsework - The formwork for the underside of a suspended concrete element such as a floor or beam.

Flange - On a steel beam, the horizontal elements on the top and bottom.

Geothermal - A process of heating or cooling a home utilizing a constant temperature water source such as groundwater or body of water and heat pumps. We're using an open loop system that pumps water directly from a well, through the heat pumps and back into the well.

Gravel - This term varies greatly by region. In Maine gravel refers to a granular material with a well graded mix of aggregate from fines up to stone of 2" or greater. As opposed to crushed stone, which has no fines.

High Hat - A component of the LiteDeck system that is installed over the standard plank to decrease slab thickness and increase beam depth.

High Range Water Reducer - Also called a super-plasticizer is a chemical admixture added to concrete to increase flowability without additional water resulting in a slump of 7 to 9 inches (see slump)

Hydration - The chemical process between water and cement through which concrete gains strength.

Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF) - Stackable styrofoam blocks that are filled with concrete to create structural walls. Blocks consist of two styrofoam faces held together with plastic webs that also act as screw blocks for attaching drywall and siding.

LiteDeck - A brand of stay-in-place form used to build concrete floors or roofs consisting of styrofoam planks with longitudinal 'troughs' that create integral beams when filled with concrete.

Midrange Water Reducer - A chemical admixture added to concrete to increase flowability without additional water resulting in a slump of 5 to 6 inches (see slump)

Modular Form - A manufactured form system consisting of panels of varying size that can be connected together to create whatever dimensions are required.

Rustication - Strips of wood or other material attached to the face of a form to create a reveal in the concrete when removed.

Screed - A straightedge typically 2 x 4 inches used by one or more men to level concrete by dragging it across the surface.

Sleeve - Something placed in concrete formwork, usually a piece of pipe, to create an opening for something to pass through the wall after it is stripped.

Shoring - Temporary heavy duty staging that supports formwork or LiteDeck planks under elevated slabs.

Stirrup - A reinforcing bar bent into a square or circle for the purpose of containing other bars to create a beam or column within the concrete section

Strongback - A vertical stiffener added to concrete formwork to plumb a wall and/or transfer loads to ties or braces.

Slump - A measure of the flowability of concrete typically used to determine water content. A 12" tapered metal cone is filled with concrete and pulled off and the distance the concrete 'slumps' is measured. Most concrete mix designs are based on enough water to achieve a 4" slump, which is a reasonably workable mix.

ThermoMass - A proprietary system that allows rigid insulation to be installed in a formed concrete wall. The insulation board is held in place with plastic spacers allow concrete to flow on all sides.

Tie - The device that holds the two sides of a concrete form together resisting the pressure applied by concrete. Ties come in a broad range of types and materials for both proprietary and generic form systems.

Tremie - A pipe or tube used to place concrete that directs the material past rebar or other obstructions that could cause segregation.

Web - On a steel beam, the vertical element in the middle.

Waler - A horizontal stiffener added to concrete formwork to straighten a wall and/or transfer loads to ties or braces.

Water/Cement Ratio - Determines the ultimate compressive strength of concrete. The greater the proportion of cement relative to mix water, the higher the strength.

 

[ConCretin]

Make a separate thread called the concrete glossary or something. It would useful for everyone anyway, and you can just link to it as needed.

Thanks kerryt1. I did just that.

Thanks Vermotor and hpw well as well.

 

[ConCretin]

Re: The Concrete Underground Glossary

Reserved

 

[Vernmotor]

Re: The Concrete Underground Glossary

Ok cool. I learn some Just by reading that (thumbs up )

 

[zporta]

This is such an amazing build, my dad started his concrete company 30 years ago (mainly flatwork) and I have been working with him for 10. This thread makes me realize how much I have to learn.

Can't wait to see the finished product, let alone follow the rest of the massive project

 

[HCTR]

Interesting build! Its also Interesting to see the formbuilding solutions/systems used. and that the standards/building code is so diffrent across the world Im working as a formwork carpenter myself, in Norway, so its always interesting to see other ways to solve problems.. Im in the last weeks(clean up, tearing down the last props, and counting all the small bits for the systems used in the progress..) of a 13 month job now, total is around 15.000m2 , 55.000manhours on the concrete job, 1.500tons of rebar, and 12.000m3 with concrete to mention some numbers.. Involving lots of architectural concrete so i know how time consuming it is compared to pouring walls, etc that will be covered with paint/plaster/etc.. Its also is time consuming building wall formwork to fit with corner and wall ends, compared to pouring walls from corner to corner, if you understand?


And construction during the winter isent fun at all! Shoveling snow, covering up everything before going home, heating poured walls, keeping tempratures up after stripping, freezing fingers, toes, ears, wet socks, i can go on for quite a while.. hehe couple of weeks into april and the snow are gone here

 

[hobbitss]

It's been mentioned a number of times that a glossary would be helpful in understanding the terminology and acronyms used in the thread - so I started one in the first post.

I did a quick list of terms that came immediately to mind. If you guys can help me out by suggesting additional ones, I'll add em as we go.

Everyone has been so great with their support, I want to do everything I can to make it as interesting as possible. Feelin the pressure to raise the bar.

Edit; Well that idea didn't last long. There's apparently a 10,000 letter limit on a post. I used the first post so it would be easy to find. Any suggestions?

That first post was large to begin with, I believe the next one only has a couple of images... You can move content from the first post to the second to make room or post the Glossary to the second...
Keep it simple and easy..

 

[NUTTSGT]

I missed this place for a few days and had to catch up. I wasn't expecting 4 pages though.

How often have your guys had to bull float off a ladder ?

 

[Bib Overalls]

Re: The Concrete Underground Glossary

In your "build" thread you you use the term "placing" rather than "pouring." I know that in the concrete industry "placing" is the correct term but a lot of what you do looks like "pouring" to me. Are the two words synonymous, one correct and the other slang or do they actually have different meanings in the industry.

 

[akapero]

A fantastic thread!

I've been reading from the beginning over the last few days. I can't wait to see the progress, especially now that things are really coming together.

 

[CoconutPete]

Wow, it's starting to look like a house. Amazing work.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Re: The Concrete Underground Glossary

A lot of people refer to concrete as cement.
Perhaps explain the difference.
Also do a google search for "concrete terms glossary"
Intersting reading indeed.

 

[ConCretin]

Not too much to report tonight. We were pretty short handed to begin with, then we got rained out. Must be Monday, right?

After the roof placement last week, I covered the slab with Hydracure curing fabric. This is a great product though a bit pricey. It's got two plys - a felt like material that retains water and a plastic layer to keep it from drying out. Put it down and forget it.

We did get started on the shoring for the cantilevered beam that will support the corner of the roof. (Now that I've got the glossary started, I need to get some plans up so you can see what the heck I'm talkin about)

Here's another view of the shoring. LiteDeck will span between the steel beam and the plywood deck. The cantilevered beam runs from left to right over the fireplace wall on the plywood. The corner of the roof to the right hangs out there pretty good.

We also got started on the falsework for the slab over the fireplace. We're going to jam in some rigid insulation as a stay-in-place form so we don't have to strip a form in such a confined area. We'll need to install sleeves for the fireplace vent and the exhaust for the gas grill.

We'll need a break in the weather if we're gonna get this thing poured this week.

 

[randomtwinkie]

How long till christmas?? AKA When do you plan on form removal?

 

[ConCretin]

This is such an amazing build, my dad started his concrete company 30 years ago (mainly flatwork) and I have been working with him for 10. This thread makes me realize how much I have to learn

I suspect you are just being humble but it's smart to remain open to learning new things. Thanks for the kind words - it's always nice when folks in the business approve.

And construction during the winter isent fun at all! Shoveling snow, covering up everything before going home, heating poured walls, keeping tempratures up after stripping, freezing fingers, toes, ears, wet socks, i can go on for quite a while.. hehe couple of weeks into april and the snow are gone here

Sounds like you've been working on an amazing project HCTR. Construction is a tough business but when you drive by something you helped build, it's a great feeling.

Apparently winter concrete is a pain in the @ss no matter where you live. I'm glad spring is finally here.

I missed this place for a few days and had to catch up. I wasn't expecting 4 pages though.

How often have your guys had to bull float off a ladder ?

Always nice to hear from you Nutts. We do a lot of elevated concrete work but I gotta admit, ladder bull floating is becoming a lost art.

How long till christmas?? AKA When do you plan on form removal?

Formwork for footings, walls, etc can generally be stripped within 24 hours or less from a structural standpoint. We usually leave forms for the AC walls in place for 2 or 3 days to provide some additional curing time, which is really all that's needed this time of year. If it were August, we'd need to keep some kind of curing in place after we stripped the forms.

We'll leave the the shoring under the LiteDeck in place for a week or so. Properly cured concrete will reach 70% of design strength in 7 days and that's enough for it to support it's own weight.

 

[ConCretin]

Re: The Concrete Underground Glossary

In your "build" thread you you use the term "placing" rather than "pouring." I know that in the concrete industry "placing" is the correct term but a lot of what you do looks like "pouring" to me. Are the two words synonymous, one correct and the other slang or do they actually have different meanings in the industry.

'Placing' is just a PC term for 'pouring' - there's no real difference. I use them interchangeably myself.

A lot of people refer to concrete as cement.
Perhaps explain the difference.
Also do a google search for "concrete terms glossary"
Intersting reading indeed.

I gave up on correcting people on cement vs concrete a long time ago.

I'm sure others have done a much better job than I have defining concrete terminology - my versions are specific to this project. User beware. .