The Mindset: How to do high quality work

[M6erfan]

This is how we try to rationalize substituting hack jobs in place of our best work.

No. That is the best work, under those conditions. Of course, when time allows the kludge repair should be redone correctly

Don't most people always hire the lowest bidder?

"Most people", probably. When skill became commoditized, I don't know exactly, but that's a big part of 'race to the bottom'. Actually, it just dawned on me that maybe it's the warped mindset that everyone has (or should have) equal talent.

 

[zendriver]

"Most people", probably. When skill became commoditized, I don't know exactly, but that's a big part of 'race to the bottom'. Actually, it just dawned on me that maybe it's the warped mindset that everyone has (or should have) equal talent.

It's not about talent it's about money.

People don't really want to pay 25% more for 25% better workmanship. Most time they don't really expect to get it anyway.

 

[M6erfan]

It's not about talent it's about money.

People don't really want to pay 25% more for 25% better workmanship. Most time they don't really expect to get it anyway.

I think because the "25% better workmanship" is hard to quantify in the outcome, and therefore sell.

 

[ez-duzit]

Don't most people always hire the lowest bidder?...

Most people are unsophisticated, yet many (not most) still try to do their own general contracting, for example. And you can read, right on this site, how many really screwed up concrete slabs get installed (for example) because "most people" aren't qualified to tell a good contractor from a hack. So they have to put up with crappy work. All in the name of saving money.

 

[jonesg]

The mindset of "good enough" stands in the way of doing one's best.

my "good enough" is better than the competitions best.
My best isn't economically viable.

 

[zendriver]

Most people are unsophisticated, yet many (not most) still try to do their own general contracting, for example. And you can read, right on this site, how many really screwed up concrete slabs get installed (for example) because "most people" aren't qualified to tell a good contractor from a hack. So they have to put up with crappy work. All in the name of saving money.

Brain surgeons know brains, but they're "unsophisticated" because they might not know **** about roof replacement?

Will they automatically get better work from the higher bid?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

my "good enough" is better than the competitions best.
My best isn't economically viable.

Everybody wants "the best" until they see what it costs.


No, I'm not estimating a full engine pull and re-gasket on a 2001 Buick, with all OEM parts.

 

[cannuck]

I have worked for decades in 2 areas - one with design/build aviation stuff and the other very large power transformers - that make the airplane stuff look like cheap kids toys. BOTH definitely require some dead serious attention to detail - but I have to say the whole business of building, testing or fixing requires numbers - and those numbers are a generally a range. Things are actually measured to be within the max/min range for whatever is being done. In other words: "perfection" is actually a matter of being "good enough".

When I was in the car restoration business, same things applied when trying to actually restore a car. Flawlessness was never there. Restoring means perfection is once more "good enough" to be what it was originally. An over-restored but significant car that someone wanted "perfect" actually needs to be undone to get it "right".

Now: when you are first making something of your own, THEN IMHO "perfection" is a great goal, but in the real world where costs and schedules matter not at all reasonable to do. But: if someone wants to knock themselves out to do the "perfect" car repair, I can actually understand and appreciate that.

 

[Ricky Joe]

A lot of good stuff in that video, and I can relate with a lot of what he says. The hardest part is balancing "perfect" with profit. At one end of the spectrum is work that is absolutely outstanding, but takes longer and costs A LOT more. The other side is slap shod sloppy, "no-one will ever see it" or "we'll be long gone before it's a problem" attitudes. ******, fast, move on to the next. I cannot stand the latter, it bothers me to no end.

My wife thinks I'm nuts. Since I've been working on our home remodel she often questions why I take so long to do things. Much of the issue is A) I'm doing it largely on my own, but more B) I'm learning as I go, so I do A LOT of research into most every aspect of whatever the project may be. When it comes to construction, electrical, plumbing, finishing, I didn't have anyone to teach me. I'm learning late in life. But with all the pressure to 'hurry up and get it done", I still try to do everything the absolute best I can.

When interviewing subs for work on the house, I was taken back by a question that often came up, from them. "are you going to live here, or flip it?" Umm, what? Why would that matter? But we all know the reason. Right?

That actually is a legitimate question. Price becomes a factor if you are looking for a profit.

I used to have a garage. Sometime in the mid-eighties, a used car dealer brought a car to me with a knock. It was a very unusual double knock, traceable to one cylinder. It was a four cylinder engine. When I pulled the head, I found that one piston had broken in half above the wrist on, and the odd knock was the top part of the piston being smashed back and forth. All of the cylinders had deep ring grooves, and of course the head needed attention where the valves had been pounded. I fixed everything. When I gave the bill, the dealer blew up, telling me he only wanted the knock fixed. I told him that I had to stand behind my work, and couldn’t in good conscience do less. Had the engine failed while he owned it, he would have looked to me to fix it on my dime. I lost a customer over doing the job right.

I find it hard to do a substandard job, or, as they say, put lipstick on a pig. But sometimes putting tile in when linoleum will do is losing money on a flip. It’s hard enough to make enough money to make a house flip worth the time and risk. Between insurance companies, banks, tax laws, municipal regulations, real estate agents ,etc., It often seems that your efforts reward others more than yourself. I was buying houses and fixing them up in 2007-8. When savings and loans started their “crisis” (it was far too controlled to be a legitimate crisis), I got caught with four houses that I had bought to fix up. Houses came on the market not needing anything for less than I paid for fixer uppers. The bailouts were almost exactly what the banks lost in Enron. I took a bath.

 

[Toolfool]

The pursuit of perfection leads to the production of nothing.....

lg
no neat sig line

Sorry you feel that way, Larry.
My approach has always been "The pursuit of perfection leads to the production of excellence."

 

[AEAdam]

For me personally, “good enough” on a car repair could mean cutting a few corners on a vehicle that I intend to sell, has other problems that may end its utility etc. But I tend to do what I consider to be “best practice”. I have a “minimum standard of workmanship“.

I don’t really know what will happen to a vehicle after I finish a repair. The kids could total it, or someone could love it for the next 20years. So “good enough” work isn’t something I really do because I’m not confident I know what happens next.

Now this doesn’t mean every repair is a museum restoration job. But I do what I consider to be best practice.

I feel as tho euro mechanics are trained to do a certain level of work regardless of what the car is or the customer can pay. My impression is, they have a minimum standard. So thats what I try to do. If you are a European mechanic and do hack work, please don’t burst my fantasy bubble!

 

[zendriver]

Wonder how many people believe they do excellent work, when it really isn’t at all.

 

[Tynee]

This is how we try to rationalize substituting hack jobs in place of our best work.

This is the attitude I dislike. The idea that your way is the only right way is so elitist. What a turnoff.

 

[jollygreengiant]

This is the attitude I dislike. The idea that your way is the only right way is so elitist. What a turnoff.

That comment you quoted had me really wondering if there are actually people out there who have never had to make a temporary repair to keep something going until you get the time/parts to do a proper repair. In every industry I've been in, keeping a machine shut down while there's a way to fix it won't go over well at all.

I do think that everyone should strive to make themselves better, and by further extension to make the results of their labour better. This continual improvement is how individuals and society overall have advanced for millenia. But with that advancement should also come discernment, knowing when to strive for your ultimate best and knowing when it is better to produce something that may not be your best quality but is the best use of time, resources, and finances.

 

[NDJ]

Anyone here work for Boeing ?

 

[rust in the eye]

Vince Lombardi said something to the effect of; "strive for perfection, settle for excellence."
My mindset is usually to do my best, hence my best gets better.
There is a place for perfunctory too.
If working for others you are damn lucky if you have a have a client wealthy and patient enough to indulge this pursuit.
A friend is a cabinet maker that specializes in custom bars. These are sometimes a year in the making and very expensive. Because he is never satisfied he is always behind with an impatient or angry customer. He winds up working for wages most of the time and more often than not the customer is oblivious to the quality of the work he does.

 

[Stobal]

Everybody wants "the best" until they see what it costs.


No, I'm not estimating a full engine pull and re-gasket on a 2001 Buick, with all OEM parts.

I mean go ahead and provide a quote if it won’t take you long to do so. It provides a good reference. Then provide a quote for what you would do in their situation assuming they are dealing with an honest mechanic (which I assume you are). I think most people are really looking for honesty from mechanics instead of “perfection” or “the best.” With construction and carpentry it is a bit different, often times there is a wide margin between expectations and what they are willing to pay. Even so there is a huge difference between a a couple of areas with some extra millimeters of lippage in a 500 square foot tile job, and cutting corners to earn an extra buck.
Another sad reality is unless you are building from scratch, many existing structures are so poorly built that when adding something like a custom built-in, “perfection” will simply not be possible. This is where skill comes in to make the most from the imperfect canvas, and I believe one should charge accordingly. I think the variable that we are all ignoring in this debate is trust between the tradesman/craftsman and the customer. Once you develop a reputation for being an honest dealer it’s much easier to charge what your time is worth. Hopefully by that point you can just screen bad clients who expect too much but are not willing to pay for it.

 

[Stobal]

Vince Lombardi said something to the effect of; "strive for perfection, settle for excellence."
My mindset is usually to do my best, hence my best gets better.
There is a place for perfunctory too.
If working for others you are damn lucky if you have a have a client wealthy and patient enough to indulge this pursuit.
A friend is a cabinet maker that specializes in custom bars. These are sometimes a year in the making and very expensive. Because he is never satisfied he is always behind with an impatient or angry customer. He winds up working for wages most of the time and more often than not the customer is oblivious to the quality of the work he does.

One could argue that not blowing deadlines by being honest with yourself and the customer as to how long it will take you to build something in which both parties are satisfied is as much a part of a competent skill set as cutting perfect joinery.

 

[rust in the eye]

One could argue that not blowing deadlines by being honest with yourself and the customer as to how long it will take you to build something in which both parties are satisfied is as much a part of a competent skill set as cutting perfect joinery.

Agreed. Managing expectations is the most important part of customer satisfaction. If his business sense were as good as his other skills he'd have less problems and be more profitable. He is also one of those that also has a hard time saying NO so often takes it in the pants on changes too.
Needless to say he has folks waiting in line for him

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I mean go ahead and provide a quote if it won’t take you long to do so. It provides a good reference. Then provide a quote for what you would do in their situation assuming they are dealing with an honest mechanic (which I assume you are). I think most people are really looking for honesty from mechanics instead of “perfection” or “the best.” With construction and carpentry it is a bit different, often times there is a wide margin between expectations and what they are willing to pay. Even so there is a huge difference between a a couple of areas with some extra millimeters of lippage in a 500 square foot tile job, and cutting corners to earn an extra buck.
Another sad reality is unless you are building from scratch, many existing structures are so poorly built that when adding something like a custom built-in, “perfection” will simply not be possible. This is where skill comes in to make the most from the imperfect canvas, and I believe one should charge accordingly. I think the variable that we are all ignoring in this debate is trust between the tradesman/craftsman and the customer. Once you develop a reputation for being an honest dealer it’s much easier to charge what your time is worth. Hopefully by that point you can just screen bad clients who expect too much but are not willing to pay for it.

It's pointless as a 2003 buick owner isn't buying anything. It would probably take 30+ min to estimate cost. It's not an in/out job. It'll have broken motor mounts, rotted/broken subframe bolts, exhaust is all rotted apart, harness destroyed, hoses swollen from oil leaks, etc.

That's my point. Perfect doesn't exist because if most people could afford perfection, they'd buy a better car.

EDIT: not sure I'd even let someone spend that kind of money on a rotbox buick.

 

[rust in the eye]

Everybody wants "the best" until they see what it costs.


No, I'm not estimating a full engine pull and re-gasket on a 2001 Buick, with all OEM parts.

The "estimate" I'd provide is that the job will exceed the value of the car, still want to proceed? Then would require a hefty down payment before commencing work as I've seen friend's shops "own" these shitboxes at the end of the day.
Having said that I know a guy who threw an overpriced engine replacement at a twenty year old Dodge. He told me the amount he paid and I suspect (no, I'm sure) the shop gave him a we don't want to do it price that he went for. So you never really know.

 

[honcho]

This is how we try to rationalize substituting hack jobs in place of our best work.

That's unfair relative to the examples given. If your job is to keep something moving forward and you have limited resources, then a "hack job" can be brilliant masterful work for a given set of circumstances.

 

[Stobal]

It's pointless as a 2003 buick owner isn't buying anything. It would probably take 30+ min to estimate cost. It's not an in/out job. It'll have broken motor mounts, rotted/broken subframe bolts, exhaust is all rotted apart, harness destroyed, hoses swollen from oil leaks, etc.

That's my point. Perfect doesn't exist because if most people could afford perfection, they'd buy a better car.

EDIT: not sure I'd even let someone spend that kind of money on a rotbox buick.

never owned a Buick of any vintage so I guess I missed the meaning in your example. I think your edit equals what I was saying when I said a good honest mechanic would recommend getting rid of the car because that is what they would do if the situation was reversed. I was more speaking in generalities. I do the work on my own and my wife’s cars but am often called by family to double check a diagnosis or quote from their mechanics and what I am looking for is honesty over anything to the point that if the quote is just a bit high but the plan seems sound I advise to take it. If the quote comes back way too low, or if it includes lots of “extras” unrelated to the initial problem I tell them to get a second opinion and ideally will go check the car out myself.

 

[zendriver]

Anyone here work for Boeing ?

I don't, but interesting point on how the past might be a little different than the present.

Some years back I pumped out several 4000 gal bulk fuel tanks for a GM engine design facility in Flint MI, that was being torn down. I marveled at how this fuel tank area was built. Tanks recessed in fine finished concrete pits, Overhead roof awing, seemingly miles of perfect constructed steel grate catwalks, stainless steel fuel piping, perfect electric layout. Looked like something one might see on a Navy battle ship. It was Trades work at it's finest, seemingly a "you want it - you got it!" project probably common in the late 50's early 60's when corporate money flow freely, in turn keeping skilled tradesman busy.

Can't imagine what a chopped up cheap *** mess, building something like that today would be.

In all of the fine old wood, brick, stone finished large houses and mansions, did they get 4 price estimates, angst at the cost, then picking the lowest, or did the pretty much say "this is what I want!" and just paid accordingly.

Boeing, like most companies, used to be pretty fat. Quality no problem - the money is there. The "bean counters", competition, stockholder demand, escalating costs took over and now we have **** than can barely stay airborne without problems.

 

[VolvoRyan]

Meh. There are lots of exceptions, but "half-assedly" is the new American way. Seems I *always* have some rebuilt part back in UPS's hands for warranty. Following up on these bits is a huge time sink. I'm always re-doing sloppy work that was performed at high-end Indy shops or Volvo dealer techs themselves.

Even with HVAC stuff here at the house. I have no experience with HVAC.... but I can read a wiring diagram and figure out what a professional did that they should not have. Yes, let's run an auxiliary blower from that terminal with a 2 amp limit.... because that blower will never fail and pull more than that.

We've been through a load of plumbers. Re-do's and whoopsies happen every time.

We can't even make toilet paper that tears well.

It's pretty endless. It's just getting worse as the old timers retire. Yet, I still buy American whenever possible.

-Ryan

 

[dutchgray]

In all of the fine old wood, brick, stone finished large houses and mansions, did they get 4 price estimates, angst at the cost, then picking the lowest, or did the pretty much say "this is what I want!" and just paid accordingly.

Sadly in the "good old days" it was really not uncommon that they just didn't pay the tradesmen when the work was done.

Look in to the history of the majority of what are considered the greatest masters of most trades and you'll find a lot went bust.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

never owned a Buick of any vintage so I guess I missed the meaning in your example. I think your edit equals what I was saying when I said a good honest mechanic would recommend getting rid of the car because that is what they would do if the situation was reversed. I was more speaking in generalities. I do the work on my own and my wife’s cars but am often called by family to double check a diagnosis or quote from their mechanics and what I am looking for is honesty over anything to the point that if the quote is just a bit high but the plan seems sound I advise to take it. If the quote comes back way too low, or if it includes lots of “extras” unrelated to the initial problem I tell them to get a second opinion and ideally will go check the car out myself.

Once something is 10-12 years old, here in rust-ville, the concept of "remaining life" becomes a big thing. Sometimes it's better to walk away from a vehicle.

 

[housewolf]

During my long career in commercial HVAC & Plumbing I’ve seen the the quality of work go down. IMO only a small part of it due to the attitude of the worker bees, and then at least some of that is most likely a by-product of customer driven priorities.

• Contracts awarded solely on costs to perform work
• Unreasonable schedules
• Value engineering - lower quality material
• Demanding work performed out of sequence
• Labor saving processes (requires lower skilled workers)

We still had some customers willing to pay for a Cadillac but we can’t give a Cadillac to a customer that only paid for a Chevy.

 

[jhendric]

This reminds me of the old book "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". A big part of this is just simply being present when doing the work. Too many tradesmen are rushing and/or distracted.

I tend to obsess about the work I do sometimes to the extent that I can only see my flaws (especially in woodworking) when the work is 100% perfectly acceptable to everyone else. In that book the main character goes crazy in his search of quality. Everything in the right balance.

 

[DieselSaves]

This reminds me of the old book "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". A big part of this is just simply being present when doing the work. Too many tradesmen are rushing and/or distracted.

I tend to obsess about the work I do sometimes to the extent that I can only see my flaws (especially in woodworking) when the work is 100% perfectly acceptable to everyone else. In that book the main character goes crazy in his search of quality. Everything in the right balance.

Robert Pirsig came to mind when I first read this thread. It’s been years since I read the book and I had it summarized for me recently by a relative who was following the story geographically as a “Pirsig pilgrim”.

Correct me where I’m wrong, the author was in search of(obsessed with?) “quality”. At some point, he suffered a massive breakdown. His story was his coping with life afterwards?