The Ratchet Collection Thread

[humber2]

Maybe European where individual stamping for several brand names was common but the switch and two holes for an assembly tool put in with what OTG posted.

Here’s a 3/8 drive unit I purchased in remote Northern California Couple of visits back.

The drive plug is captured and is a push thru to reverse rotation of the socket.

 

[Provincial]

Looks like the Truth design.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...the switch and two holes for an assembly tool put in with what OTG posted.

That's true, but many mfgrs adopted that style switch, and I have never seen a Bog reversible ratchet (not counting the hex and square drive stuff in the early cold-forged era...) with anything but a round handle.

I second 3bay on the Williamsy copycatting.

Looks like the Truth design.

...with railroad provenance!

 

[Ricky Joe]

Billings.

 

[Debcrow]

OTC H-261 Plug Ratchet, 3/8 drive, 6 1/2 inches long . Was this made by some other manufacturer for Owatonna? Years of manufacture? I do not run across many OTC wrenching tools, mostly specialty. I am also posting a OTC 1/2 speeder today.

 

[Micah40337]

I have this old ratchet don’t know much about it??

 

[humber2]

OTC H-261 Plug Ratchet, 3/8 drive, 6 1/2 inches long . Was this made by some other manufacturer for Owatonna? Years of manufacture? I do not run across many OTC wrenching tools, mostly specialty. I am also posting a OTC 1/2 speeder today.

Hunt out OTC thread of Oct 7 for info I posted.

 

[four.cycle]

I got real ambitious one day and took these all apart, cleaned them and lubed them up good... and then got sidetracked going down another rabbit hole....

 

[Isaiah6113]

Little snafu this morning. Took apart a dirt-choked, recently-acquired Blackhawk 34935, stamped with Luther E Kilness patent 2981389. I can see a ball (#34) in the patent drawing, but did not notice one in disassembly. Cleaned, lubed & back together, except that ball. It still works, but I bet the selector would be a lot crisper if it were there. I’ll check places it may have dropped, but I was very careful at the point it would have jumped out. Possibly, today isn’t the first time this rat has been apart.
Pics, if anyone’s interested.

Hey LesserSon,

I too have the same ratchet, branded Husky, exact same assembly, similar code on the clip. I posted in The Vintage New Britain thread here, asking the exact same question.

Did this originally come with a ball?

Yes the patent shows a ball, but no ball was present in mine when I opened it. And I too wondered if somebody had got in there before me and had the assembly go "sproing". Interesting to note that the pawl has a circular mark from the spring, but no mark one would expect from a ball sliding across it.

Did you get any feedback on your posting? Any PMs with words of wisdom?

Any and all help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Matthew

 

[LesserSon]

I don’t recall any previous response, and haven’t learned anything more.
In my case, I won’t be using it, so won’t do any damage to it But I’d feel better selling/trading it if I knew it was factory-correct.

 

[Isaiah6113]

I don’t recall any previous response, and haven’t learned anything more.
In my case, I won’t be using it, so won’t do any damage to it But I’d feel better selling/trading it if I knew it was factory-correct.

Yes I hear that. I'd like to use it, but don't have too, I have several other 1/2 ratchets that are everyday users that I can use in its stead. But . . . as you say, the beating of that Tell-Tale (ball-less) Heart will likely drive me mad.

 

[four.cycle]

Walden model 3150M 1/4" drive ratchet

 

[JjKk40]

Walden model 3150M 1/4" drive ratchet

Awesome style Walden right there! Never seen one like that! Now I have to keep my eye out for one that style!

 

[Ricky Joe]

Yes I hear that. I'd like to use it, but don't have too, I have several other 1/2 ratchets that are everyday users that I can use in its stead. But . . . as you say, the beating of that Tell-Tale (ball-less) Heart will likely drive me mad.

I love the Poe reference!

 

[four.cycle]

Awesome style Walden right there! Never seen one like that! Now I have to keep my eye out for one that style!

In just over six years perusing Ebay listings almost daily, that is the only one I've ever seen. It is an odd duck for sure.
I popped a socket onto it and cranked it around before I took those photos, and it's only a 20-tooth mechanism - not much of a refinement over the earlier 3150, but definitely shorter and with a lower profile.

 

[Loga_3]

Old swedish ratchet made by Nike. No, not the one what makes them clothes. The swedish Nike was famous for their hydraulic jacks amongst other things such as drawing tables and hydraulic barber chairs. Eight teeth is all you need folks!

 

[Orangina]

Eight teeth is all you need folks!

Yes in the 1920s
as also at this Hazet hexdrive (sold in "Hazet 240a" sets)



(today in overfilled engine bays i like to have more tooth "Hazet 916 HP" with 90)

regards,

 

[bonneyman]

Old swedish ratchet made by Nike. No, not the one what makes them clothes. The swedish Nike was famous for their hydraulic jacks amongst other things such as drawing tables and hydraulic barber chairs. Eight teeth is all you need folks!

Nice piece of old steel!

Although, I prefer 32 teeth myself.

 

[Orangina]

Hello everyone,

and now the smallest ratchet in my HAZET collection:
a 2.8" tie clip in shape of a "HAZET 916 S" around the year 2000:



my real ratchets from ~1925 to ~2000:


regards,

 

[Private Lugnutz]

my real ratchets from ~1925 to ~2000:

Holy Copycats, Batman! I cannot believe how much those first four ratchets from the left look like a Will B. Lane, a Blackhawk 911X (or later 49977), and a Herbrand S-10! I'd really love to see the patent/production info on those particular Hazets. These resemblances are not something that has come up before as far as I know.

 

[Orangina]

Keep in mind, that HAZET with thousand of tools not build all tools at their own -
they also bought customized versions at different brands
(e.g. Stahlwille torque wrench in the 50s to 70s till they build there own in the mid 70s, or hammers from CADOS in the late 60s, etc).

And as far as I know / found in the internet: "By the 1960s the increasing competition in the tool industry had made it difficult to remain independent, and in 1961 Herbrand was acquired by the Kelsey-Hayes Corporation, an industrial manufacturer." (source: alloy-artifacts.org... so deals with other companies will be helpful at this time for Herbrand.

So these could be a customized version of Herbrand S-10 - but nobody could answer this today in detail...

 

[four.cycle]

"Holy Copycats, Batman!

That is rather interesting. Somebody on another thread asked about that Herbrand selector knob - the dome-shaped one with the concentric grooves - and wondered if any other manufacturers had ever used a selector knob like that.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Keep in mind, that HAZET not build all tools at their own...

I don't know anything about Hazet, Orangina. I'm only reacting to the unavoidable resemblance.




I'll back off on the Will B. Lane comparison. If Hazet did not make that early hex drive ratchet (which is drop-dead gorgeous, by the way!), whoever did may have looked across the ocean, but it's a very simple design (Bartholomay, US Patent 876,680, 1907), and others were making versions of it after Will B. Lane and his series of four (4) 1910-1911 improvement patents, to include enclosing it and replacing the piano-wire toggle with a more conventional switch, like that on the Hazet.

But the Blackhawk 49977 (dates to 1919, itself a copy of the Mossberg 350, US 1,078,059, 1913) and Herbrand S-10 (1941) ratchets are spittin' image identical or nearly identical, though.

Keep in mind Blackhawk took its name - initially as a brand of the American Grinder Corp - explicitly for the black Parker process rust-proofing it was proud of proclaiming it was using. It's worn completely off mine. But look at everything else, especially the pressed steel construction, the shape, the placement of the rivets, and even the selector to see why I am so astonished this has not come up before.

For the Herbrand S-10, if the half beehive concentric-circle selector switch isn't enough for you, look at the shape of the head and the exact same placement of the four (4) screws for the faceplate! The Hazet is exactly the same.

It's just all too uncanny to be anything but intentional.

I'd be surprised to learn that Blackhawk was supplying Hazet ratchets in 1919 or even in the 30's. I'd be less surprised if Herbrand was doing so in 1941, but I am still very skeptical of that explanation, a year before WWII. Postwar? Perhaps.

One thing is certain: if Hazet wasn't buying these ratchets from Blackhawk and Herbrand, and Hazet wasn't copying them, someone supplying Hazet was!

 

[d42jeep]

There is some resemblance alright.
-Don

 

[four.cycle]

^ Other than the depressed panel on the Hazet unit being more "pointy" at the top end, one would have a difficult time telling it from the Herbrand.
The black one - too close to be coincidence.

Hazet was most certainly up and running by the time Mr. Mossberg got around to inventing his ratchet. There's no reason to think that there couldn't have been some back-and-forth going on then.

Hazet / Hazet-Werk, Hermann Zerver GmbH & Co. KG, Guldenwerther Bahnhofstrase 25-29, 42857 Remscheid, Germany / https://www.hazet.de/ est. 1868 / http://alloy-artifacts.org/european-tool-makers.html#hazet /

I'm not sure if there's a dedicated "Hazet" thread here. Monte has posted a lot of examples in the "Tools of the Old World" thread

(If somebody knows where the dedicated "Hazet" thread is on this site, please send me the URL.)

 

[Orangina]

The HAZET thread is here

I just look at the Blackhawk - looks quite similar -
but small differences and also in the first versions (recess at the switch lever) by Blackhawk.

The patent 1927844 written on some is from 1932 - granted in June 1933 for the USA.
it's topic is the spring-loaded ball to hold the soccket -
(keep in mind, that this was also at my 1925 German hex drive ratchet!!! This to patents )
and did not show the shape of any ratchet.
RE 19287 I can't find.

At HAZET there was an early hex drive version before 1933
(then the similar successor with square drive version follows as mine).
Was there also a hex drive version of the Blackhawk?

The HAZET versions of this have different finishes:
atramentized black (phosphate manganese conversion coating),
later around 1938 atramentized white,
1949 chrome-plated,
1951 chrome-plated or burnished as options.

(untypical - normal HAZET tools are Chrom Vanadium also in the 1930s)

Hazet catalog of 1930 is in German/English/French/Italian language... so not limited to German markets.
It has already an international footprint.

 

[humber2]

Interesting to note that the earliest shown Hazet ratchet has DROP-FORGED-STEEL in relief from the forging die and Hazet is stamped in.

 

[four.cycle]

Thanks for the link. The search function here never finds for me what I'm looking for.
Patent RE19287 is a re-issue of an earlier patent 1896645 Feb 7 1933 E.M. Pfauser assigner to Blackhawk Mfg. Co. (see photo image)
Neither Mossberg or Hazet are areas of my expertise - Private Lugnutz is far more conversant about the Mossberg line.

Directory of American Tool and Machinery Patents
U.S. Patent Office

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The patent and reissue for the plug is not the salient data point. Blackhawk was making that ratchet since 1919 and in the shape and form of the 49977 from the early 1930s.

Examining this and getting too nitnoid about perceived minor distinctions without the larger context diminishes the point.

There are many US made ratchets that have similar features. So much so that it can be hard at times in some circumstances to identify them. But we've never seen another ratchet from any mfgr that looks like the Blackhawk 911/49977 ratchets. Mossberg and Packer Auto ("RAY") pressed steel ratchets, which I own, are in the same class, but look nothing like it. There just aren't any other US ratchets out there that make us instantly say, "Wow, that looks just like a Blackhawk." It would be impossible to overemphasize how uniquely recognizable that Hazet is as a Blackhawk. No other US ratchet looks even kinda sorta like a Blackhawk except for this or that minor distinction. It's that unique.

Ditto the one that is clearly a Herbrand S-10 copy. They started making them with that shape in the 30s. The switch was more conventional, though. They started usimg the sliding half dome with the concentric circles in 1941. There are Mac ratchets that have a similar shaped switch, and many collectors attribute them to Herbrand as the OEM for those reasons, despite the elongated head, and they were probably made by Wright (credit PowderKeg). (The switch, while domed and knurled with concentric circles, slides left and right not up and down, and the internals are completely different.) Like the the Blackhawk, no other ratchets look even kinda sorta like a Herbrand S-10 except for this or that minor distinction. It's that unique.

Again, I'd like to see specific production data (most crucially, when were they FIRST introduced) for the Hazet lookalike versions in question.

 

[four.cycle]

did I just type "Mossberg" up there when it should have been "Blackhawk"???

sorry Lugs my "multi-tasking" skills today are a bit lacking.

 

[four.cycle]

oh... and I'm 100% in agreement with you there on ALL points....

 

[Private Lugnutz]

A view of the internals of the Hazet would be very helpful as well. I'll see if I can find a view of the Herbrand S-10 internals. One of my screws is buggered and I don't want to ****** it more.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Orangina

Here's a photo (credit UNAIU) of the guts of an Herbrand S-10 ratchet.



You can see where the four screws go. And you can see how unusual the action is. That domed switch with the concentric circles knurling in it (not visible on the top side of the ratchet head) moves that pin up or down, along the contours of those unique asymmetrical pawls, which pushes one or the other of the pawls to the side, depending on the position. It is in the up/CCW/loosen position. Moving the button down would push the pawl on the left to the side, reversing position.

Please take a photo of the internals of your Hazet so we can compare.

 

[3baygarage]

Lugz, if you ever see any old Belzer, the drive tools resemble Snap-On right down to the ratcheting adapter. Some of their flat handle ratchets resemble Snap-On and Williams.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Interesting. From which era?

 

[3baygarage]

Maybe 50’s and older. Possibly later too, idk. There had to be some interest in copying the look back in the day, but I don’t know much about Belzer and dates.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Curiouser and curiouser.

I wasn't aware of this trend, if we can call it that, and I don't know enough about international law to know what to think about it.

I have gone on at some length on the General Discussion board about FACOM and Wera not only copying but still making and amazingly improving on US tool designs from a hundred years ago, (FACOM makes tubular socket wrenches called cles a pipes, that look like re-engineered Vlchek and (B)M(Co)), and Wera makes a self-adjusting crescent type wrench in the Joker line that is clearly a modern SPEED-NUT copy), but those tools were obsolete here and my going on is glowing with admiration and praise for these European companies recognizing the implicit functional value in them. This is a little different. That blatant Blackhawk knockoff was obviously contemporary. Same with the Herbrand. I'm curious to see the guts of the Hazet, but based only on the same screw placements, I'm predicting they are the same.

So what are we to make of all this if there was no legit supply or licensing relationship? Why do we vilify the first wave of Asian copycats and the Germans get a pass? It's an interesting situation. I may do some research while waiting for Orangina to snap a photo.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Orangina,

Disregard my request. You don't have to take your Hazet ratchet apart. Someone already did here in GJ back in 2011, when someone else marveled at the Herbrand resemblance.

All,

The internals are identical. There is no way that's a coincidence. There are only two explanations. They had some kind of legit deal, or one of them ripped the other off. Old thread with photos of Hazet guts linked here...

Hazet 916 ratchet

I saw this Hazet ratchet on ebay, and noticed it sold almost immediately for the BIN price of $130. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390333950346&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT So, what's the deal? Doesn't that seem a little high?

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Provincial]

I know that there was a lot of cross-licensing going on in the post-WWI era. BMW licensed Pratt & Whitney aircraft engines, and Siemens-Halske licensed the British Bristol Jupiter engine. It makes sense that advanced hand tool designs be licensed.

I believe that licensed designs were rarely, if ever, marked to indicate the original design origin. I believe licensing was included in markings mostly on very large or complex designs that had large ID or data plates.

Not that there wasn't design piracy going on. It worked both ways, with Wilton vise design being the poster child!

 

[Stillgottimefor1]

What exactly Is this? No markings . Refrigeration valve wrench?