The Ratchet Collection Thread

[Ricky Joe]

It looks to me like Herbrand made that ratchet for Billings. Herbrand's use of the VAN-CHROME brand, alluding to a chrome vanadium composition precedes Billings' use of Vitalloy (1939, IIRC), composition unknown, but I have always suspected (as I similarly suspect of -ZENEL-) an early undisclosed and pre-New Emergency steel triple alloy, by a good number of years.

My curiosity is whether the same ratchet was made with different alloys. My suspicion is that Bonney made both ratchets.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

My curiosity is whether the same ratchet was made with different alloys.

Ah. Okay. The dies are agnostic to the composition of the steel that's put in them, but I see what you mean now.

My suspicion is that Bonney made both ratchets.

Hmm. That's a new one on me. What makes you think that?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Herbrand supplied those to billings, vitalloy was a billings thing. Wright also supplied some vitalloy to billings.

 

[Ricky Joe]

Ah. Okay. The dies are agnostic to the composition of the steel that's put in them, but I see what you mean now.

Hmm. That's a new one on me. What makes you think that?

What makes me open to that thought is that Bonney made a ratchet identical to the Herbrand. Herbrand by the 1950s was in trouble, either through laziness, streamlining product and eliminating slow selling items, complacency; whatever. I think that it is far more likely that Herbrand outsourced to Bonney than that Bonney had Herbrand make product. Billings apparently contracted from Bonney for wrenches, so why not ratchets, also. Herbrand was bought out, and soon thereafter Bonney was, by the same group (Kelsey Hayes). Companies bought out are usually in trouble, so, it makes more sense to me that Bonney made the ratchet style. All conjecture, but possible, I think.

 

[davethorik]

Just got this beauty of a Herbrand J-9 from another member to complement my J-9A.

 

[humber2]

The C-147 cover is a match for my Wright MN-60

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Yes they are the same ratchet

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Bonney made a ratchet identical to the Herbrand

If you mean like the Herbrand and Billings you posted, with that shape head and face plate, and a transverse concentric circles slide, not that I know of. When? Do you have an example?

Companies bought out are usually in trouble, so, it makes more sense to me that Bonney made the ratchet style. All conjecture, but possible, I think.

Not impossible, I suppose, but postulating that they were made by Bonney because Herbrand was in business "trouble" is a theory that has a lot of uphill climbing to do. Was Herbrand acquired by KH because they were struggling? Even if that's so, hypothetically, if Bonney was close to being on the buying block themselves for the same reason, why would they be in any better position? But that's all moot, anyway. Herbrand had been making that ratchet for a long time, and your ratchets aren't from the late 50s. I think those are late 40s ratchets, when most mfgrs were enjoying a postwar boom. Even if they were later, though, Herbrand introduced the economy line "Vi-Chrome" line well after that style, wasn't bought by KH until 1961, and at that time they had already moved to a teardrop ratchet with a simple rod switch operating a single pawl.

 

[Ricky Joe]

If you mean like the Herbrand and Billings you posted, with that shape head and face plate, and a transverse concentric circles slide, not that I know of. When? Do you have an example?

Not impossible, I suppose, but postulating that they were made by Bonney because Herbrand was in business "trouble" is a theory that has a lot of uphill climbing to do. Was Herbrand acquired by KH because they were struggling? Even if that's so, hypothetically, if Bonney was close to being on the buying block themselves for the same reason, why would they be in any better position? But that's all moot, anyway. Herbrand had been making that ratchet for a long time, and your ratchets aren't from the late 50s. I think those are late 40s ratchets, when most mfgrs were enjoying a postwar boom. Even if they were later, though, Herbrand introduced the economy line "Vi-Chrome" line well after that style, wasn't bought by KH until 1961, and at that time they had already moved to a teardrop ratchet with a simple rod switch operating a single pawl.

I am aware of all of that. I think Herbrand outsourced before the single pawl, of which I do have an example. Here is my Bonney example. I can send a comparison photo later, as I have the Herbrand in several examples each of 1/2” and 3/8” drive.

 

[3baygarage]

What is that Ricky Joe, a 3/4 drive? Seeing as Bonney didn’t have ratchets in 1/4, 3/8, or 1/2 in that format I wouldn’t quite think they made them. I believe Bonney also had some large 3/4 or 1” ratchets made by Wright, as Wright also did for I believe Herband, Billings, etc.. Wright was a major player in the large ratchet game for some reason.

I know there are Bonney rats (at least 1/4”), as well as Vi-Chrome, with that round selector, like the others in your previous post. Anyway, I don’t do dates well. Just going by what I’ve seen and gathered.

 

[Ricky Joe]

If you mean like the Herbrand and Billings you posted, with that shape head and face plate, and a transverse concentric circles slide, not that I know of. When? Do you have an example?

Not impossible, I suppose, but postulating that they were made by Bonney because Herbrand was in business "trouble" is a theory that has a lot of uphill climbing to do. Was Herbrand acquired by KH because they were struggling? Even if that's so, hypothetically, if Bonney was close to being on the buying block themselves for the same reason, why would they be in any better position? But that's all moot, anyway. Herbrand had been making that ratchet for a long time, and your ratchets aren't from the late 50s. I think those are late 40s ratchets, when most mfgrs were enjoying a postwar boom. Even if they were later, though, Herbrand introduced the economy line "Vi-Chrome" line well after that style, wasn't bought by KH until 1961, and at that time they had already moved to a teardrop ratchet with a simple rod switch operating a single pawl.

My theory is that Herbrand outsourced to Bonney perhaps long before they were bought out, and perhaps while they were still profitable, but indicative of the long decline experienced by Herbrand before it actually got to the point that it made sense to sell. My lone Bonney example gives me the idea that Bonney made the others, perhaps experimented for itself, but decided not to pursue the idea. The weak point in these ratchets is the slider, which was just pressed on. With heavy use, maybe even not so heavy, there was a guaranteed warranty in its future. I don’t think Bonney had other toolmakers make tools for Bonney, but the converse is proven true. By 1961 Herbrand quality was not as competitive, nor was the selection of tools offered. In short, for whatever reason, they failed to keep up. Bonney suffered the same fate, especially after Kelsey Hayes bought them out. After that, it was cut corners, make it good enough rather than excellent, and get the money. The loss of integrity is obvious in the quality of the product.

 

[Ricky Joe]

What is that Ricky Joe, a 3/4 drive? Seeing as Bonney didn’t have ratchets in 1/4, 3/8, or 1/2 in that format I wouldn’t quite think they made them. I believe Bonney also had some large 3/4 or 1” ratchets made by Wright, as Wright also did for I believe Herband, Billings, etc.. Wright was a major player in the large ratchet game for some reason.

I know there are Bonney rats (at least 1/4”), as well as Vi-Chrome, with that round selector, like the others in your previous post. Anyway, I don’t do dates well. Just going by what I’ve seen and gathered.

You could very well be right. I am trying to use my feeble powers of reason, and guessing. That is a 3/4” drive ratchet.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

@Ricky Joe
You know I don't disagree on the long postwar conglomerated decline, I'm just skeptical of its relevance, and of Bonney making all those ratchets.

@3baygarage
The Wright angle is interesting, because of PowderKeg's theory they made the Mac ratchets that everyone else automatically attributes to Herbrand based on the shifter.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

That is interesting

 

[3baygarage]

@Ricky Joe
You know I don't disagree on the long postwar conglomerated decline, I'm just skeptical of its relevance, and of Bonney making all those ratchets.

@3baygarage
The Wright angle is interesting, because of PowderKeg's theory they made the Mac ratchets that everyone else automatically attributes to Herbrand based on the shifter.

Yes, but I was only referring to (thinking of so thanks for the reminder) the various style round head large drive ratchets made by Wright.

For the record though, Wright did make 3/4 ratchets for MAC in the form of the Wright style ratchets OTG posted above.

Do you guys see how complicated this gets?

 

[3baygarage]

Here’s a 1/4 Herbrand made by Wright. Along with a Crescent.

 

[Ricky Joe]

Yes, but I was only referring to (thinking of so thanks for the reminder) the various style round head large drive ratchets made by Wright.

For the record though, Wright did make 3/4 ratchets for MAC in the form of the Wright style ratchets OTG posted above.

Do you guys see how complicated this gets?

I think it is a conspiracy!

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I am aware of all of that. I think Herbrand outsourced before the single pawl, of which I do have an example. Here is my Bonney example. I can send a comparison photo later, as I have the Herbrand in several examples each of 1/2” and 3/8” drive.

Here is a herbrand. Looks the same.

 

[Ricky Joe]

Here is a herbrand. Looks the same.

Exactly! I have the same ratchet in 1/2” drive. Also the squared off handle version.

 

[Ricky Joe]

Exactly! I have the same ratchet in 1/2” drive. Also the squared off handle version.

They also made the version where the shifter goes north and south rather than east and west. It is a shame, in a way, because my pre-war ratchets are far better and smoother, even the 24 tooth ones. And the fine tooth are the best ever made, at least contemporaneously, in my opinion.

 

[3baygarage]

I think it is a conspiracy!

I don’t know what to call it. Commingling? It would be interesting to know how one guy came to make certain items for another guy. Cost? Capability? Deadlines?

 

[Stillgottimefor1]

I know this is modern and not very interesting, but I got this in a box of stuff recently. Thought it was a torque wrench missing something…turned out to be the handle extends…a nice feature for a light set to carry around. Wondering if the drive head is any good, and can it be updated to more teeth? Haven’t opened it up yet. Any thoughts?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I like the extended handle!

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I don’t know what to call it. Commingling? It would be interesting to know how one guy came to make certain items for another guy. Cost? Capability? Deadlines?

I think wright and bonney both had their hands in that cookie jar!

 

[Ricky Joe]

I don’t know what to call it. Commingling? It would be interesting to know how one guy came to make certain items for another guy. Cost? Capability? Deadlines?

I read once somewhere, maybe Alloy Artifacts, that Vlchek was so efficient that other manufacturers had them make their tools for them. I’m sure that specialization streamlines cost and overhead.

 

[Ricky Joe]

I know this is modern and not very interesting, but I got this in a box of stuff recently. Thought it was a torque wrench missing something…turned out to be the handle extends…a nice feature for a light set to carry around. Wondering if the drive head is any good, and can it be updated to more teeth? Haven’t opened it up yet. Any thoughts?

Home Depot carried those about ten years ago or so.

 

[JjKk40]

Home Depot carried those about ten years ago or so.

Harbor Freight has those, similar, in Pittsburg, I believe, with the extending handle.

 

[PowderKeg]

@Ricky Joe
You know I don't disagree on the long postwar conglomerated decline, I'm just skeptical of its relevance, and of Bonney making all those ratchets.

@3baygarage
The Wright angle is interesting, because of PowderKeg's theory they made the Mac ratchets that everyone else automatically attributes to Herbrand based on the shifter.

Well since my handle's been invoked (like saying "Beetlejuice" three times...) I'll weigh in with a few thoughts in no particular order:

- https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/mechanics-tool-forge-company.278029/ is the thread I posited the thought (with pics) that Wright may have made the early slide button piston pawl MAC ratchets. A couple pics got flipped around - the "first pic" appears to be the third now, and the Speedmaster/Wright Stone patent ratchet is still the 2 pics with the screwdriver underneath but out of order. I'm still gonna stick to that thought since the Pugh patent isn't assigned to any specific company, and MAC has clearly obtained ratchets from a variety of manufacturers over the years until they settled on their own unique pear head design some time after the split with/from MATCO.

- Despite never finding any Herbrand patents for their specific vertical and later horizontal slide button shifters I'm absolutely confident they made those ratchets themselves, and any other brands that show up on those designs were either sourced from Herbrand or via one of the later tool conglomerates that owned Herbrand (Kelsey-Hayes, Triangle, or Cooper). The Bonney ratchets (1/4" and 3/4" & larger) of Herbrand design most likely date from the time after Bonney was acquired by K-H (1964) and who already owned Herbrand (1961). The 1967 Bonney catalog illustrates the 1968 (applied for 1966) Kelsey-Hayes Rozmus patent dbl pawl round head ratchets for 1/4" & 3/8", the much inferior small pear head ratchet for 1/2", and the Herbrand slide shifter ratchet for 3/4" & 1". The 1966 Herbrand catalog illustrates the slide shifter for 1/4", 3/4", & 1", and the inferior small pear head for 3/8" and 1/2". My hopeful guess is that the inferior pear head design came from K-H, but it may share some basic design commonalities with either the 1960 Bonney Hare or 1962 Bonney Peters patents - been awhile since I had a small pear head apart and my memory's getting fuzzy.

- Bonney produced a slew of different ratchet designs over the years prior to getting Borg'd by K-H - almost looks like they changed up every few years or so (have only found a few patents) until K-H acquired and settled on the superior Rozmus design, IMHO the very best ratchet bearing the Bonney brand (and several others), even though it is kinda fat/thick and not the best balanced - it sure seems bulletproof.

I only have a handful of catalog pdf's, would luv to get a bunch more for Bonney, Herbrand, Billings, and others from the 50's thru at least early 80's.

 

[Ricky Joe]

Stanley indexable, Snap-On, Sparta, Sparta, Wright, S-K, Bonney, and Kobalt USA. The Snap-On is from my first tool truck purchase. My favorites are the Spartas.

Well since my handle's been invoked (like saying "Beetlejuice" three times...) I'll weigh in with a few thoughts in no particular order:

- https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/mechanics-tool-forge-company.278029/ is the thread I posited the thought (with pics) that Wright may have made the early slide button piston pawl MAC ratchets. A couple pics got flipped around - the "first pic" appears to be the third now, and the Speedmaster/Wright Stone patent ratchet is still the 2 pics with the screwdriver underneath but out of order. I'm still gonna stick to that thought since the Pugh patent isn't assigned to any specific company, and MAC has clearly obtained ratchets from a variety of manufacturers over the years until they settled on their own unique pear head design some time after the split with/from MATCO.

- Despite never finding any Herbrand patents for their specific vertical and later horizontal slide button shifters I'm absolutely confident they made those ratchets themselves, and any other brands that show up on those designs were either sourced from Herbrand or via one of the later tool conglomerates that owned Herbrand (Kelsey-Hayes, Triangle, or Cooper). The Bonney ratchets (1/4" and 3/4" & larger) of Herbrand design most likely date from the time after Bonney was acquired by K-H (1964) and who already owned Herbrand (1961). The 1967 Bonney catalog illustrates the 1968 (applied for 1966) Kelsey-Hayes Rozmus patent dbl pawl round head ratchets for 1/4" & 3/8", the much inferior small pear head ratchet for 1/2", and the Herbrand slide shifter ratchet for 3/4" & 1". The 1966 Herbrand catalog illustrates the slide shifter for 1/4", 3/4", & 1", and the inferior small pear head for 3/8" and 1/2". My hopeful guess is that the inferior pear head design came from K-H, but it may share some basic design commonalities with either the 1960 Bonney Hare or 1962 Bonney Peters patents - been awhile since I had a small pear head apart and my memory's getting fuzzy.

- Bonney produced a slew of different ratchet designs over the years prior to getting Borg'd by K-H - almost looks like they changed up every few years or so (have only found a few patents) until K-H acquired and settled on the superior Rozmus design, IMHO the very best ratchet bearing the Bonney brand (and several others), even though it is kinda fat/thick and not the best balanced - it sure seems bulletproof.

I only have a handful of catalog pdf's, would luv to get a bunch more for Bonney, Herbrand, Billings, and others from the 50's thru at least early 80's.

Makes perfect sense! My assumption of Bonney manufacture was rooted in my assumption that these were from the 1950s. There used to be an old saw about the word, “assume”; I think I may have validated my part!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

the "first pic" appears to be the third now

It happened in the software upgrade. The order the photos are loaded in old (pre-switch) posts was completely flipped. It's annoyingly unfortunate. I often reference photos by number (e.g., Pic 1) in posts, which are now all very confusing.

 

[humber2]

At a recent swap meet this instant ratchet collection was available and in due course I became the new custodian of these coarse examples.

From L to R in 1/2” drive....

King **** in Aluminum boasting 16 clicks but a featherweight.

Sidchrome with at least 20 clicks, 1950’s era, Australian.

Dufor with 20 clicks, open teeth, female style, 1950’s era, Australian.

Thorsen 77 with 30 clicks, open teeth, very heavy.

Ingenious use of a generator bracket and assorted sockets.

Lastly a 3/8 drive Wright MN60 which works alright with 20 clicks.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

That Dufor looks like an old walden

 

[don long]

I went picking in my own back yard in one of the tractor trailers behind the western town and found this 1/2" ratchet
It is made of beryllium by Beryco





It was hiding in this plastic tool box



And I don't think it was ever used. Here is the contents of the box



Any ideas of the age of this set??

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Im no expert on those, but looks awesome!

 

[humber2]

Don’t judge a socket set by its case is an old saying that comes to mind.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Any ideas of the age of this set??

Don’t judge a socket set by its case is an old saying that comes to mind.

Humber is right, Don. That set originally came in a metal case. I've seen it in a 1960's catalog on IA/ITCL when I was poking around trying to identify a different piece a few years ago.

EDIT: Link here.

 

[humber2]

Rethinking what I meant above as exactly Dons set appears on the bay under NGK Berylco.

I consider a steel case in a hazardous atmosphere to be a spark risk.

Were the Berylco metal cases non sparking?

But now I’m confused why a non sparking set is being sold for sparking plugs.........

Edit, NGK Corp is the maker of Berylco products. Not the Japanese spark plug maker.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I have seen a 1/4 set In a plastic box.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The same sets may very well have come in plastic cases later. Or also. I don't know. All I am saying is both the midget and standard sets are shown coming in safety metal cases in that 60's catalog. Follow the link to read more for yourselves. EDIT: Correction. The midget case was plastic. I must have seen that one in an earlier catalog. So maybe they dropped the BeCu case for the standard set later.

 

[don long]

Thanks for the info and leads. I'm feeling pretty good about my new find. I have a large collection of brass (berlyco) tools and this bax will complement them well