Beerhippie
Well-known member
Just to clarify, when I mentioned "teeth on the tip of the saw", I didn't mean the tip of the normal blade. I meant this:
Teeth on the tip of the saw.
Teeth on the tip of the saw.
The Vintage Hand Saw Thread
- Thread starter doublearon98
- Start date
RTM
Well-known member
Ah, might be for use as a flooring saw, cutting a single board out for repair. Lemme poke about.
Here is yours, says nothing about the tip teeth and their usage, but they are shown.
Here is yours, says nothing about the tip teeth and their usage, but they are shown.
E.C. Simmons Keen Kutter : Catalogue No. 776 : Simmons' Manual Training Blue Book : Simmons Hardware Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
513 p., illus., 25.8 cm, trade catalog
archive.org
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RTM
Well-known member
Hmm, maybe not teeth. Are they sharpened? Maybe not really teeth. My Disston does not have teeth on the toe. I have not read both patents, but both are listed here. This post says to hold the bar in place better.
Bishop Adjustable Back Saws
For those that are interested, here is a picture of my Bishop adjustable Model 10 Backsaws. Originally patented by Wuest Jan. 9, 1906 (#809485), it covered a saw plate filed crosscut on one side and rip on the other with an adjustable back. On the toe end is another set of "teeth". These were...
sawmillcreek.org
Beerhippie
Well-known member
I think you nailed it there, RTM, with the "rack" teeth! The teeth on the end of the blade not only don't seem very sharp, they have no set and no direction--symmetrical.
Compared to the Disston with the clamp at both ends, this makes sense.
I wonder about the difference between the Keen Kutter and Blue Brand? Seems the Blue might be the premium--'though the Keen Kutter was the company flagship.
All I know about age is that it's been in my shed for at least twenty years.
Compared to the Disston with the clamp at both ends, this makes sense.
I wonder about the difference between the Keen Kutter and Blue Brand? Seems the Blue might be the premium--'though the Keen Kutter was the company flagship.
All I know about age is that it's been in my shed for at least twenty years.
Mintgrun
Well-known member
I don't think those teeth are meant for cutting. I'll bet they are for indexing the frame. It's a cool design, since the frame can double as a depth stop.
Eric Brown
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This is one of the earlier versions of the Bishop #10 saw but not the first version. Close though. The first version had several distinctive features. First was the wheat carvings going in several directions. Next would be the patent applied for on the handle. This one has the second style of locking lever. I have been wondering about how the blue was put on and then the etch. The etched area never seems to rust. On one I have the back was also blued, but most was gone when I got it. Found some blue left where it was protected by the handle.Here's another oddball saw for your viewing pleasure:
I assumed that it was a combination cross-cut/rip saw, but it clearly says "made for use by mechanics". And what's up with the short section of fine teeth on the end of the blade?
Here's some history of the Simmons Hrdwre Co. I was able to drum up:
http://www.thckk.org/history/simmons-hdwe.pdf
Another forgotten cool tool from my own garage!
Simmonds probably made a deal with Bishop and I also have a Shapleigh version. One the first Simmonds the back is not marked. Yours, has no markings on the back, but the newer lever. The third version only has the patent date and is marked Shapleigh. Most the Bishops are marked with two lines on the back. George Bishop and the patent date. Later, they dropped the Bishop name again. Probably when they started marking them with the Lawrenceburg address. Anybody interested in my posting about the eight I have that are all different? Should I start a new thread or post on this one?
RTM
Well-known member
Post it here, post it here, with LOTS of good pix.
Beerhippie
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Eric Brown
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Bishop Adjustable Backsaw Model 10 Type Study. Multiple posts due to number of pictures.
Like most type studies, this one does not cover every little variation. Basically, the Bishop No. 10 saws can be separated into three groups. The first group covers the Fredrick Wuest patent of July 12, 1898 (#607107). The next group covers the Fredrick Wuest patent of Jan. 9, 1906 (#809485).
The last group is after they moved to Lawrenceburg Indiana.
The first patent of 1898 was assigned to the George H. Bishop company based in Cincinnati Ohio who produced many different types of saws from the early 1880’s until 1899. They moved the main office to Lawrenceburg Indiana in 1899, but continued to make and mark their tools as either from Cincinnati or Lawrenceburg until 1920. The 1906 patent was not assigned. (Perhaps Wuest received royalties for a license agreement?) In 1920 the company merged with a company in Columbus Ohio and called it the Ohlen-Bishop Company. So far it looks like the No. 10 was discontinued at this time. Anybody have one?
The first group follows the patent closely. Main features include a movable back that can be positioned to control depth of cut. This back is constructed with two strips of steel with a spacer at the toe. The spacer holds the two strips apart the thickness of the blade. The two strips and spacer are riveted together. The spacer has a hidden feature, small protrusions, that engage the teeth at the end of the blade. These teeth are not sharpened or set, and have a triangular shape. The teeth are only used to keep the back from slipping up or down. At the other end of the two strips at the handle end is a slot. When the back is inserted into the handle this slot first goes over the clamping bolt and then the screw. The screw is simply for alignment and should not need to be tightened during use. (It is a very short wood screw and only is seen on the left side of the handle.) The bolt for tightening the handle is a ¼-20 threaded rod with two flats on one end. These flats go through a washer with a slot to keep the rod from turning. Then a hex nut is put on the end with the flats. This is all inserted though the handle where another washer and a tightening lever are attached. On this first group the lever has an outward protrusion, later ones are flatter. The handles on the first group have a “patent applied for” stamped on the left side towards the bottom.
To use, loosen the handle by turning the lever counterclockwise a few turns. Slide the handle off the back. Move the blade back away from the toe until it disengages the protrusions. Position the blade to the desired depth and push back until the blade engages the protrusions again. Push the handle back on and tighten. Note: The lever position after it has been tightened can be adjusted. Determine where you would like the lever and then loosen the lever and adjust the nut. Retighten the lever.
Blades. The blades all seem about .030” thick. Not sure about lengths available in this first group.
See below for 10” and 12” examples. The 10” and 12” are about 3 ¼” wide, The 14” is about 3 ½” wide, and the 16” is about 4” wide. All these examples are file rip on one side and crosscut on the other. All the teeth point towards the toe, allowing a simple flip of the blade and back to change.
Backs. The back up to the 14” are all .30 thick measuring both sides and the saw blade. The 16 is thicker at .418” thick measuring both sides and the saw blade. All the backs are ¾” wide with the slots centered. Unknown what the longer ones are.
GROUP 1
TYPE 1-A
This saw is marked with GEO BISHOP on the back and Patent Applied For on the handle. Wheat carvings start at the bottom of the grip and go to the top. Then a second carving goes from the top down towards the blade and splits to go on both sides of locking lever. The blade is 14 PPI crosscut and 10 PPI rip. 10” long. The blade is not etched. The locking lever, threaded bolt, and nut are all brass (originally nickel plated). The hole where the bolt goes through is closer towards the end of the handle than later versions. The wheat pattern is also slightly different in this area.
TYPE 1-B
Not marked on back. Originally blued. Blade was blued both sides with a E.C. Simmons etch on left side. Patent Applied stamped on the handle. Wheat carvings start at the bottom of the grip and go to the top. Then a second carving goes from the top down towards the blade. The blade is 15 PPI crosscut and 9 PPI rip. 12” long. The locking lever and nut are brass, but the threaded rod is now steel. The hole for the threaded rod is now further from the end of the handle and the handle is longer.
TYPE 1-C
This is a saw owned by BeerHippy. (See earlier post 10727228) It has the handle of a type 1-B but the steel Type 2 lever and bolt assembly from the 1906 patent. Possibly using up stock.
It also has a blued blade and a E.C. Simmonds etch. Wheat carvings are like earlier types.
GROUP 2
1906 patent. Basically the same as the 1898 patent but with three differences. After the patent was granted they started putting the patent date on the saw back and/or on the right side of the handle towards the bottom. The lever was changed to a flatter profile and the threaded rod for the lever was replaced by a bolt with a smooth tapered head with a single lug under the head, all made from steel (nickel plated). The slotted washer was replaced with one with a square hole. The lug on the bolt engages one of the square corners to prevent turning. To adjust where the lever ends up after tightening, loosen it up until the lug can clear the washer and rotate in 90 degree increments. The last difference in the patent was the addition of an adjusting screw at the toe end. This feature has not been seen.
Note: The backs usually have the patent date stamped on it, and most are also marked with Geo. Bishop & Co. above the patent date. See details below for examples.
Type 2 are the most commonly found.
TYPE 2-A
This saw has G.H Bishop & Co. and PAT JAN’Y 9-06 on the back, two lines. It has PAT JAN’Y 6-09 on the left side of handle towards the bottom. (Note: This marking is usually damaged and hard to read.) The wheat carving on the handle is now a single row that starts in the middle and then goes to both the top and bottom of the grip. The blade is 15 PPI crosscut and 9 PPI rip. 12” long. This example has an unreadable etch on the blade. The etch looks similar to 2-B.
Continued on next post
Like most type studies, this one does not cover every little variation. Basically, the Bishop No. 10 saws can be separated into three groups. The first group covers the Fredrick Wuest patent of July 12, 1898 (#607107). The next group covers the Fredrick Wuest patent of Jan. 9, 1906 (#809485).
The last group is after they moved to Lawrenceburg Indiana.
The first patent of 1898 was assigned to the George H. Bishop company based in Cincinnati Ohio who produced many different types of saws from the early 1880’s until 1899. They moved the main office to Lawrenceburg Indiana in 1899, but continued to make and mark their tools as either from Cincinnati or Lawrenceburg until 1920. The 1906 patent was not assigned. (Perhaps Wuest received royalties for a license agreement?) In 1920 the company merged with a company in Columbus Ohio and called it the Ohlen-Bishop Company. So far it looks like the No. 10 was discontinued at this time. Anybody have one?
The first group follows the patent closely. Main features include a movable back that can be positioned to control depth of cut. This back is constructed with two strips of steel with a spacer at the toe. The spacer holds the two strips apart the thickness of the blade. The two strips and spacer are riveted together. The spacer has a hidden feature, small protrusions, that engage the teeth at the end of the blade. These teeth are not sharpened or set, and have a triangular shape. The teeth are only used to keep the back from slipping up or down. At the other end of the two strips at the handle end is a slot. When the back is inserted into the handle this slot first goes over the clamping bolt and then the screw. The screw is simply for alignment and should not need to be tightened during use. (It is a very short wood screw and only is seen on the left side of the handle.) The bolt for tightening the handle is a ¼-20 threaded rod with two flats on one end. These flats go through a washer with a slot to keep the rod from turning. Then a hex nut is put on the end with the flats. This is all inserted though the handle where another washer and a tightening lever are attached. On this first group the lever has an outward protrusion, later ones are flatter. The handles on the first group have a “patent applied for” stamped on the left side towards the bottom.
To use, loosen the handle by turning the lever counterclockwise a few turns. Slide the handle off the back. Move the blade back away from the toe until it disengages the protrusions. Position the blade to the desired depth and push back until the blade engages the protrusions again. Push the handle back on and tighten. Note: The lever position after it has been tightened can be adjusted. Determine where you would like the lever and then loosen the lever and adjust the nut. Retighten the lever.
Blades. The blades all seem about .030” thick. Not sure about lengths available in this first group.
See below for 10” and 12” examples. The 10” and 12” are about 3 ¼” wide, The 14” is about 3 ½” wide, and the 16” is about 4” wide. All these examples are file rip on one side and crosscut on the other. All the teeth point towards the toe, allowing a simple flip of the blade and back to change.
Backs. The back up to the 14” are all .30 thick measuring both sides and the saw blade. The 16 is thicker at .418” thick measuring both sides and the saw blade. All the backs are ¾” wide with the slots centered. Unknown what the longer ones are.
GROUP 1
TYPE 1-A
This saw is marked with GEO BISHOP on the back and Patent Applied For on the handle. Wheat carvings start at the bottom of the grip and go to the top. Then a second carving goes from the top down towards the blade and splits to go on both sides of locking lever. The blade is 14 PPI crosscut and 10 PPI rip. 10” long. The blade is not etched. The locking lever, threaded bolt, and nut are all brass (originally nickel plated). The hole where the bolt goes through is closer towards the end of the handle than later versions. The wheat pattern is also slightly different in this area.
TYPE 1-B
Not marked on back. Originally blued. Blade was blued both sides with a E.C. Simmons etch on left side. Patent Applied stamped on the handle. Wheat carvings start at the bottom of the grip and go to the top. Then a second carving goes from the top down towards the blade. The blade is 15 PPI crosscut and 9 PPI rip. 12” long. The locking lever and nut are brass, but the threaded rod is now steel. The hole for the threaded rod is now further from the end of the handle and the handle is longer.
TYPE 1-C
This is a saw owned by BeerHippy. (See earlier post 10727228) It has the handle of a type 1-B but the steel Type 2 lever and bolt assembly from the 1906 patent. Possibly using up stock.
It also has a blued blade and a E.C. Simmonds etch. Wheat carvings are like earlier types.
GROUP 2
1906 patent. Basically the same as the 1898 patent but with three differences. After the patent was granted they started putting the patent date on the saw back and/or on the right side of the handle towards the bottom. The lever was changed to a flatter profile and the threaded rod for the lever was replaced by a bolt with a smooth tapered head with a single lug under the head, all made from steel (nickel plated). The slotted washer was replaced with one with a square hole. The lug on the bolt engages one of the square corners to prevent turning. To adjust where the lever ends up after tightening, loosen it up until the lug can clear the washer and rotate in 90 degree increments. The last difference in the patent was the addition of an adjusting screw at the toe end. This feature has not been seen.
Note: The backs usually have the patent date stamped on it, and most are also marked with Geo. Bishop & Co. above the patent date. See details below for examples.
Type 2 are the most commonly found.
TYPE 2-A
This saw has G.H Bishop & Co. and PAT JAN’Y 9-06 on the back, two lines. It has PAT JAN’Y 6-09 on the left side of handle towards the bottom. (Note: This marking is usually damaged and hard to read.) The wheat carving on the handle is now a single row that starts in the middle and then goes to both the top and bottom of the grip. The blade is 15 PPI crosscut and 9 PPI rip. 12” long. This example has an unreadable etch on the blade. The etch looks similar to 2-B.
Continued on next post
Attachments
Last edited:
Eric Brown
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Bishop Adjustable Backsaw Model 10 Type Study. Second post.
Type 2-B
Same as 2-A except longer, with a thicker back. The blade is 11 PPI crosscut and 7 PPI rip. 16” long.
The handle is now 7 ¼” long and the lever bolt hole has been moved down also. Because of the thicker back, a wider slot was cut into the handle.
Type 2-C
Same as 2B except the font for Geo. Biship & Co. now a larger font.
Type 2-D
Same as 2-A except the blade is 12 PPI crosscut and 8 PPI rip. 14” long. This example has a Shapleigh etch on the blade. The back is only marked with patent date.
Group 3
Type 3-A
Same as 2-D except for markings. This one is marked on the back three lines. Top: Geo. H. Bishop & Co. Middle: Lawrenceburg, Ind. Bottom: PAT. JAN’Y 6-09
The blade etch shows the Cincinnati location.
Type 2-B
Same as 2-A except longer, with a thicker back. The blade is 11 PPI crosscut and 7 PPI rip. 16” long.
The handle is now 7 ¼” long and the lever bolt hole has been moved down also. Because of the thicker back, a wider slot was cut into the handle.
Type 2-C
Same as 2B except the font for Geo. Biship & Co. now a larger font.
Type 2-D
Same as 2-A except the blade is 12 PPI crosscut and 8 PPI rip. 14” long. This example has a Shapleigh etch on the blade. The back is only marked with patent date.
Group 3
Type 3-A
Same as 2-D except for markings. This one is marked on the back three lines. Top: Geo. H. Bishop & Co. Middle: Lawrenceburg, Ind. Bottom: PAT. JAN’Y 6-09
The blade etch shows the Cincinnati location.
Attachments
Eric Brown
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Bishop Adjustable Backsaw Model 10 Type Study. Second post.
Type 2-B
Same as 2-A except longer, with a thicker back. The blade is 11 PPI crosscut and 7 PPI rip. 16” long.
The handle is now 7 ¼” long and the lever bolt hole has been moved down also. Because of the thicker back, a wider slot was cut into the handle.
Type 2-C
Same as 2B except the font for Geo. Biship & Co. now a larger font.
Type 2-D
Same as 2-A except the blade is 12 PPI crosscut and 8 PPI rip. 14” long. This example has a Shapleigh etch on the blade. The back is only marked with patent date.
Group 3
Type 3-A
Same as 2-D except for markings. This one is marked on the back three lines. Top: Geo. H. Bishop & Co. Middle: Lawrenceburg, Ind. Bottom: PAT. JAN’Y 6-09
The blade etch shows the Cincinnati location.
Eric Brown
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Bishop Adjustable Backsaw Model 10 Type Study. 3rd post
Addition Information: Generally speaking, all the saw plates are the same thickness. The lengths of course are different. According to one ad from 1910, they sold the Model 10 in sizes ranging from 8”, 10”. 12”. 14”, 16”, 20”, 22”, 24”. The 10” to 16” are the most common, the rest rarer.
The saw teeth vary in size with finer pitches on shorter saws going to coarser pitches on the longer ones. I don’t have information about the saws longer than 16”. Tooth pitch, back size, etc.
E.C. Simmonds was bought by Shapleigh who later had Bishop make the No. 10 for the Keen Kutter line. All these are rare.
A common damage to check for on this type of saw is the handle breaking where the lever bolt goes through. Handles can sometimes be repaired. Here is a Type 2 I made a new walnut handle for. Used a brass binder bolt to replace the wood screw, and a bronze carriage bolt for the lever handle.
Comparisons.
Type 1 and Type 2 (plus all later types) locking levers and bolts/washers.
Handles. Types 1-A, 1-B, 2-A, 2-B
Other pictures
Addition Information: Generally speaking, all the saw plates are the same thickness. The lengths of course are different. According to one ad from 1910, they sold the Model 10 in sizes ranging from 8”, 10”. 12”. 14”, 16”, 20”, 22”, 24”. The 10” to 16” are the most common, the rest rarer.
The saw teeth vary in size with finer pitches on shorter saws going to coarser pitches on the longer ones. I don’t have information about the saws longer than 16”. Tooth pitch, back size, etc.
E.C. Simmonds was bought by Shapleigh who later had Bishop make the No. 10 for the Keen Kutter line. All these are rare.
A common damage to check for on this type of saw is the handle breaking where the lever bolt goes through. Handles can sometimes be repaired. Here is a Type 2 I made a new walnut handle for. Used a brass binder bolt to replace the wood screw, and a bronze carriage bolt for the lever handle.
Comparisons.
Type 1 and Type 2 (plus all later types) locking levers and bolts/washers.
Handles. Types 1-A, 1-B, 2-A, 2-B
Other pictures
Attachments
four.cycle
Well-known member
@Eric Brown -
Awesome research! Thank you! I have only a bit of material on Bishop.
Awesome research! Thank you! I have only a bit of material on Bishop.
Attachments
Beerhippie
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Well done!
four.cycle
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Eric Brown
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Nice job. Almost looks unused. Almost. (But that's good, don't want perfect)finished re-working this beauty last night. was a bit on the rough side when I got it and I just didn't like how it looked.
Craftsman hand saw 09/03/24
("before" shots below)
four.cycle
Well-known member
^ it's very much been used. I took it down to Superior Saw and had them put new teeth on it before I refinished the handle.
In July, my mother sent me this pic of a saw my neice had spotted in an antiques store. The medalion style establishes a date range of 1896-1917. But the shape of the handle indicates that it is in the D-20 family, introduced in 1911. I guessed that it would be a straightback D-23, but when I got to the store a few weeks later, I saw it was a skewback, so D-20 after all. I already had a D-20 the same age and length, but it’s filed for crosscut, and this one is rip. So for $7, despite a missing top horn, it came home for repair and refinishing.
Here is a similarly-cropped “after” pic.
The handle with replacement top horn made from apple a neighbor felled a few years ago. I tried pigmenting shellac to colormatch the rest of the handle. It’s not quite right, but I’ll live with it.
And finally, posed with its companion.
Here is a similarly-cropped “after” pic.
The handle with replacement top horn made from apple a neighbor felled a few years ago. I tried pigmenting shellac to colormatch the rest of the handle. It’s not quite right, but I’ll live with it.
And finally, posed with its companion.
Eric Brown
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Nice repair and a good looking set.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I found a very atypical vintage Disston hand saw this morning with a two-part, two-tone composite handle. It cleaned up fairy well.
I know, jarring in a something-is-not-quite-right-with-this-picture kind of way, and probably anathema to sawdust makers and old hand saw junkies. On top of that, its condition is not very good, and it almost resembles a keyhole saw there's so little left of the blade, so it's not really a user or a wall hanger, but it was way too intriguing to leave behind.
The Disstonian Insitute dedicated a whole page on them, dubbed D-95, and made from 1935 into the 1950's, linked here. They called them "not cheap-looking," which is not exactly a superlative, but I would have to agree. It has some eye appeal. According to them the material is Tenite, from Eastman, and for their use, they branded it Disstonite. There were apparently three color combinations offered: Onyx Green and Red Shield; Brown and Green Shield; and Brown and Orange Shield (which is the one I found). Of course, their photogenic examples are in gorgeous, mint-y condition.
I know, jarring in a something-is-not-quite-right-with-this-picture kind of way, and probably anathema to sawdust makers and old hand saw junkies. On top of that, its condition is not very good, and it almost resembles a keyhole saw there's so little left of the blade, so it's not really a user or a wall hanger, but it was way too intriguing to leave behind.
The Disstonian Insitute dedicated a whole page on them, dubbed D-95, and made from 1935 into the 1950's, linked here. They called them "not cheap-looking," which is not exactly a superlative, but I would have to agree. It has some eye appeal. According to them the material is Tenite, from Eastman, and for their use, they branded it Disstonite. There were apparently three color combinations offered: Onyx Green and Red Shield; Brown and Green Shield; and Brown and Orange Shield (which is the one I found). Of course, their photogenic examples are in gorgeous, mint-y condition.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Oddly, the Disstonian Institute did not post any patent information, possibly because they're not aware of it. The patent number is more readily seen on the flip side with the medallion and screw removed.
Here's the patent.
Here's the patent.
RTM
Well-known member
Nice get, don’t recall seeing one in real life. Not sure I would have bought it up, just admired it.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I was not even aware they produced them, and I had never seen one online or in the wild, so I was texting back and forth with @LesserSon sitting in my truck, reading the excellent DI write-up, and decided it was well worth the $3 just to be able to look at it cleaned up and record it for GJ posterity.
That cleaned up better than I thought it would - nice job! Reading your write-up caused me to revisit some saws I haven’t looked at in a few years - turns out I do have a 1950s plastic-handled Disston.
“National Hardware Special 1940-1955(6?).” I’m not sure what model number it is, maybe D-111.
I thought my pics would capture that info, but I’ll have to look harder in person. Looks like I started to clean the blade, got involved with something else and never came back to it.
Most interesting to me is the pending status molded where your earlier design has a patent number. Obviously, the handle design is different, but I don’t see an obvious candidate on DATAMP.
“National Hardware Special 1940-1955(6?).” I’m not sure what model number it is, maybe D-111.
I thought my pics would capture that info, but I’ll have to look harder in person. Looks like I started to clean the blade, got involved with something else and never came back to it.
Most interesting to me is the pending status molded where your earlier design has a patent number. Obviously, the handle design is different, but I don’t see an obvious candidate on DATAMP.Attachments
Still can’t read any model number. And now I’m not so sure about the date. 1840 is clear enough,
But 1950? 1953? 1955? 1956?
The sawnuts appear to be nickel-plate brass, rather than steel, suggesting earlier, rather than later, production.
Looked through IA 1949, 1952, 1954 pdfs, but do not see this handle. Digging around in DATAMP, clicking on the classification ooens up more designs than those assigned to Disston, but I still see no matches close to 1950.
But 1950? 1953? 1955? 1956?
The sawnuts appear to be nickel-plate brass, rather than steel, suggesting earlier, rather than later, production.
Looked through IA 1949, 1952, 1954 pdfs, but do not see this handle. Digging around in DATAMP, clicking on the classification ooens up more designs than those assigned to Disston, but I still see no matches close to 1950.
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B Halverson
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I have a couple hundred old hand saws, from keyhole to two-man crosscuts, dating from the 1850s to the 1950s. The most common saw manufacturer to find is Disston, as they were the first saw maker with their own steel mill at a very early date, so could undercut the prices and production of all other saw manufacturers, and they either bought all the others up or put them out of business. After Disston the other most common vintage saws are Atkins then Simonds. Hand saw production peaked in the 1890s and early 1900s before WWI, so even today it is very easy to find saws from this era, especially Disstons. It is actually harder to find a Disston saw made between WWI and WWII than it is to find one made in the 1890s and early 1900s because of this. After WWI electric saws started showing up, the great depression hit and the economy did not recover until WWII, and by then and especially the 50s the country was swarming with hand-held electric circular saws.
I never restored an old saw. I may clean them up or do some maintenance or repair if needed to get them usable, but if you look at any mature genre of collecting, or any knowledgeable or educated collector, you will see that a "restoration" destroys the value of most any antique, erasing it's history and patina. So if you want to make a saw shiny and polish it, make sure it is not very valuable or historical. I have one of the Cortland Wood saws from the early 1850s, made at Sing Sing prison, which my father gave to me, and it is all original and in good shape, never anything done to it, and that is how it is most valuable as a historical document. I like using hand saws, and using them also uses them up, making the blade smaller with sharpening, maybe damaging the handle etc., so when I use a saw I like to use one of the common easy-to find Disston saws from after WWII or from the 15 or so years right before WWI, or some other saw that has little or no historical value.
I never restored an old saw. I may clean them up or do some maintenance or repair if needed to get them usable, but if you look at any mature genre of collecting, or any knowledgeable or educated collector, you will see that a "restoration" destroys the value of most any antique, erasing it's history and patina. So if you want to make a saw shiny and polish it, make sure it is not very valuable or historical. I have one of the Cortland Wood saws from the early 1850s, made at Sing Sing prison, which my father gave to me, and it is all original and in good shape, never anything done to it, and that is how it is most valuable as a historical document. I like using hand saws, and using them also uses them up, making the blade smaller with sharpening, maybe damaging the handle etc., so when I use a saw I like to use one of the common easy-to find Disston saws from after WWII or from the 15 or so years right before WWI, or some other saw that has little or no historical value.
The boldfaced sentiment is often expressed, less-clearly demonstrated.
Could you please further detail your distinction between cleaning, maintenancing, and repairing versus restoring? Or do you mean you only clean, maintenance and repair saws for your personal use?
I personally avoid polishing or dissolving metal away, but I do not collect tools to preserve the imagined resale value to future collectors. These are mine, for my enjoyment. My goal regarding ferrous corrosion is to remove hematite while leaving magnetite on steel. I usually succeed through hand scraping then buffing with a FINE steel wire wheel. If I’m feeling very cautious I use a hand-held stainless wire brush.
Some collectors want a distinct etch against smooth bright steel, revealed through sanding (if not too pitted). I’ve done that on a few pieces, but it removes steel and makes the remaining surface more vulnerable to further corrosion than leaving porous magnetite to better hold a layer of oil, wax, etc.
Still, if someone wants that look for their saws, I respect their choice.
Bottom line: saws, even collectible saws (as you point out), are NOT uncommon. I routinely see the same saws at flea markets for $1-5 as I see on eBay for $200.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks. I was pleased. I was hoping to see a "Masterpiece" (now there's a superlative!) etch after a light cleaning, but no such luck. I noted that Disston led off their 1949 catalog with lightweight saws and the D-95 is actually the very first saw in the book at the top of the page.
With the "top" (apex above the mean line) missing, I am seeing either 1955, 1956, or possibly 1958, and I think those are the only possibilities based on the font. Does it look like nylon? Does nylon show particulates like Tenite does? Or is it a uniform solid? According to the DI, the D-111 was nylon and it was the last model they made in Philly before HK Porter moved production to Danville, Virginia "in the late 1950's". Do you know exactly when that occurred? That could eliminate 1958. It all seems to match up with info available on IA. The only plastic handled saw the 1954 Illustrated Price List includes, as far as I can tell, is the D-95.
That is interesting. I suppose a new patent may have had something to do with either the one-piece design, the composition, the slightly different shape, its entire construction, or all of the above.
The handle is hollow, a mottle/swirl of tan and light brown. Maybe it is nylon. It is somewhat splayed at the fore-end of the top, like maybe oxidation or other environmental conditions made the exterior surface shrink while inside the slot was protected by the presence of the blade.
I’m away from home this weekend, and won’t have more time till tonight for more internet research.
I’m away from home this weekend, and won’t have more time till tonight for more internet research.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I poked around IA for a little while...
At the bottom of page 13 of the 1958 Porter (Disston Division) Saw, File, and Tool Manual, the D-95 has a walnut handle. Linked here.
On page 2 of the 1959 Porter (Disston Division) Hardware Catalog, they offer a plastic handle, called the Challenger, as an economy line model. Same shape handle, but black, with only three nickel-plated screws, including the medallion. Linked here.
Incongruously, on page 2 of an undated but seemingly later Porter Canada (Disston Division) Hardware catalog, H-65, they offer what sure looks like the two-piece two-tone Disstonite handle D-95, but it is not explicitly described as such, and could just be re-using an older illustration. Linked here.
At the bottom of page 13 of the 1958 Porter (Disston Division) Saw, File, and Tool Manual, the D-95 has a walnut handle. Linked here.
On page 2 of the 1959 Porter (Disston Division) Hardware Catalog, they offer a plastic handle, called the Challenger, as an economy line model. Same shape handle, but black, with only three nickel-plated screws, including the medallion. Linked here.
Incongruously, on page 2 of an undated but seemingly later Porter Canada (Disston Division) Hardware catalog, H-65, they offer what sure looks like the two-piece two-tone Disstonite handle D-95, but it is not explicitly described as such, and could just be re-using an older illustration. Linked here.
four.cycle
Well-known member
FWIW = I thought I was seeing 8
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
That helps us see it now on yours, too. The numbers are slightly arcing.
Some other Disston saws have slightly different “National Hardware Special” etches with hardwood handles (presumably from later years). Dunno what NHS is - an expo, maybe? Maybe an ad will turn up.
The D-111 is described with black handle. The Keystone K-6-1/2 Challenger is described in the 1949 catalog with a “moulded plastic handle, attractive mottled brown”. It is shown with a speedboat etch. Other than the etch, and probably the sawnuts/medallion, it looks identical to the NHS, so I think the NHS is a slightly dressed-up K-6-1/2, or a slightly dressed-down D-111.
The D-111 is described with black handle. The Keystone K-6-1/2 Challenger is described in the 1949 catalog with a “moulded plastic handle, attractive mottled brown”. It is shown with a speedboat etch. Other than the etch, and probably the sawnuts/medallion, it looks identical to the NHS, so I think the NHS is a slightly dressed-up K-6-1/2, or a slightly dressed-down D-111.
Mike'smeatshop
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- Apr 1, 2023
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- 1,273
I understand your point. But these saws would have never sold for what they looked like when I purchased them. The Keen Kutter was in very bad shape. And the guys selling the Disston thought it just had a hole in the handle. Two handed saw.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
That sounds about right!
I don't know for sure, but there was a National Hardware organization, operating like a clearinghouse or brokers, I think, who published a bulletin. I see them show up all the time in Google Books searches. It seems like the kind of business entity with which Disston would've had such a long relationship that it deserved an anniversary saw.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I've been having fun on IA/ITCL and Google Books.
The Masterpiece D-95 with the two-piece two-tone plastic handles appear in every publication (manual, catalog, and illustrated price list) in the public domain from 1935 to 1953.
Sometime between then and 1958, they switched back to walnut.
They were still very proud of it in 1939!
The DI write-up is a little misleading in a couple different ways, by the way. It states, "Plastics were being developed in the 1920's and 30's. Bakelite was used to make every consumer product possible. Saw handles were no exception. Disston used it for the handle of the D-18 handsaw, starting in 1925."
That's true...
But "starting" is a little misleading. That is when they introduced it, and also when they coined the "Disstonite" branding, not later for the 1935 patent marketing. But if you Google Books the term "Disstonite" and a year, it only shows up in trade mags in 1925 and 1926. They marketed it hard! But dropped it fairly quickly. And they don't use the Disstonite branding to describe the 1935 patented handle, made out of new plastic (apparently Tenite), in any of their publications after that, sufficing to describe it vaguely and with superlatives (e.g., "made out of the toughest, most durable material ever developed"). As you can see above, by 1939, they didn't consider it a development that merited inclusion in the retrospective on notable Disston innovations.
I did get one weird hit in 1961. It's a snippet-only view that I have requested the Google Books team to unlock.
The Masterpiece D-95 with the two-piece two-tone plastic handles appear in every publication (manual, catalog, and illustrated price list) in the public domain from 1935 to 1953.
Sometime between then and 1958, they switched back to walnut.
They were still very proud of it in 1939!
The DI write-up is a little misleading in a couple different ways, by the way. It states, "Plastics were being developed in the 1920's and 30's. Bakelite was used to make every consumer product possible. Saw handles were no exception. Disston used it for the handle of the D-18 handsaw, starting in 1925."
That's true...
But "starting" is a little misleading. That is when they introduced it, and also when they coined the "Disstonite" branding, not later for the 1935 patent marketing. But if you Google Books the term "Disstonite" and a year, it only shows up in trade mags in 1925 and 1926. They marketed it hard! But dropped it fairly quickly. And they don't use the Disstonite branding to describe the 1935 patented handle, made out of new plastic (apparently Tenite), in any of their publications after that, sufficing to describe it vaguely and with superlatives (e.g., "made out of the toughest, most durable material ever developed"). As you can see above, by 1939, they didn't consider it a development that merited inclusion in the retrospective on notable Disston innovations.
I did get one weird hit in 1961. It's a snippet-only view that I have requested the Google Books team to unlock.
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B Halverson
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- 304
A Disston Acme 120 thumbhole rip saw that was hanging in the basement at a local estate sale earlier this year. I did not think much of it at first and brought it home and put it in the thumbhole rip-pile, but then later on I started thinking about how the handle had some carving in it and how that meant it must not be a run-of-the-mill D8. Sure enough with a bit of cleaning the "acme 120" etch came out. ;
RTM
Well-known member
Factory grind, or has it been resharpened to match standard saws?