Thinking out loud - dust management in workshop

[lml999]

We moved into a new (to us) house with a nicely sized workshop in the basement. PO left me a ShopSmith table saw, router/router table, dust collector, air compressor, some other goodies.

The shop has no outside ventilation. The walls are either below grade or interior. The rest of the basement is finished, and much is above grade (sloping lot).

I've been doing some woodworking and while the DC is helpful, I'd like to get some air flow in/out of the shop. Mostly out. I don't really have good access to run a duct from the workshop to the outside..only real option is to run it to the left through the closet. But the closet is finished and I don't really want to do too much exploring there.

Garage is to the right, one floor up.


Then I thought...I don't need a *permanent* duct. I don't do a *lot* of woodworking, just occasionally on weekends. The workshop is also my bike shop and I occasionally use citrus based solvent for cleaning bicycle parts. So far, anything that requires more ventilation (hardwood cutting/sanding, staining/polyurethaning) gets moved to the two bay garage with doors open...

I could go through the closet and run a flexible vent down the hall, into the utility room and out the back wall there. When I need ventilation, I hook up the vent. When I'm done, I disconnect the vent and coil it up in the utility room.

Now that I've written it out, it feels like a permanent vent out to the left is a better option. There's already a boxed in chase leading from the workshop to the closet. It would certainly be a more elegant approach...

Location is New England, btw.

What size vent should I use? What's a good source of fans for this application? Do I need to filter the exhaust?

Right now, the DC is in the top right corner. Do I want it to be close to the vent inlet?

Comments appreciated...

 

[Daniel Dudley]

On a lot of my jobs I use a shop vac with a bag for the collector, and a tiny window fan to pull air from other parts of the house to keep dust migration to a minimum. They call it creating negative air pressure. A six inch inline fan or even a decent inline bathroom fan will do that if you have some real means of collecting the dust.

Harbor Freight and Grizzly have decent dust collectors if you go that route. You want one with a top filter and a lower collection bag. For weekend projects a decent shop vac can get you started. The liner bags work very well, and can hold a lot, but they do cost about 10 bucks each. You need a collector of some sort on each tool though so you can plug in.

 

[Showkey]

Wood shop in the basement can be done with a shop vac, small dust collection and air filter system with no outside air intake or exhaust. All three can be setup for less than $1000. Small shop small random project simple JET a filter system can do the job.

If your finishing with paint or varnish exhaust can be helpful but not absolutely critical as there are many low or no VOC choices. Finish in the garage is another no coat alternative.

 

[lml999]

Thanks guys, as mentioned above I do have a data collector in the shop, a ShopSmith DC3300. I just ordered a new tall hood for it, as the current (small) hood looks to be pretty well used. The tall hood supposedly filters down to 1 micron in particle size. I also ordered a couple of new hoses as the original ones are pretty well worn and kinked.

That's a first step. The second step is to do better dust management at the individual tool, the Shopsmith saw, my miter saw, etc. I'll see how much these two steps affect the airborne dust (and I do wear a KN95 mask when I'm generating dust). My concern is that it will linger after I'm done cutting...and have turned off the DC, and removed my mask.

I do think an outside exhaust will be helpful due to the air turnover, am wondering how to best make that happen...

Thanks!

 

[Vahispd]

One suggestion is to add an air scrubber to clean the air in the workshop. Several of the major brands make a version and you can build your own with an old furnace fan, plywood and filters; or even a box fan and some furnace filters bungeed on. Most of the brands even have a timer so you can set the cleaner to run after you finish working and capture the suspended dust that the dust collection misses.

What type of ceiling is in the rooms you show on your floorplan? Also, what are your exterior walls made of?

 

[nadogail]

I think that the box fan and air filters will be your quickest and most cost effective remedy.

 

[matt_i]

This product that ShowKey linked is your best solution, imo.

The finest dust collection system with 20hp motor can't capture all of the fines from tablesaw or mitersaw blades in my opinion. You have to have the recirculating filter to get those fines incrementally over time.

The big downside of outside air is a) its one half of a heat leak in your house -- as soon as a door is opened and b) its a wide open invitation to get humid air in the basement which is murder on bare steel and iron surfaces so commonly used in woodworking equipment. It also affects the actual wood -- your hard won precisely dimensioned S4S is suddenly a cupped banana board.

 

[lml999]

One suggestion is to add an air scrubber to clean the air in the workshop. Several of the major brands make a version and you can build your own with an old furnace fan, plywood and filters; or even a box fan and some furnace filters bungeed on. Most of the brands even have a timer so you can set the cleaner to run after you finish working and capture the suspended dust that the dust collection misses.

What type of ceiling is in the rooms you show on your floorplan? Also, what are your exterior walls made of?

Interesting. Hadn't thought of that.

In the shop, two walls are poured concrete, the other two are 2x4. All are fully covered with pegboard. The ceiling is unfinished, with joists showing and fiberglass insulation batts, paper facing down.

Other exterior walls are either poured concrete or 2x4 (6?), all insulated and covered with drywall. Ceilings in the spaces other than the shop and the utility room are finished (drywall). Eyes are blue.

 

[tarmy]

Wood shop in the basement can be done with a shop vac, small dust collection and air filter system with no outside air intake or exhaust. All three can be setup for less than $1000. Small shop small random project simple JET a filter system can do the job.

This. I have both as well. You will still get dust...but not much. I also got a good Festool hepa filter vac that my had tools attach to as well. Metal work like grinding, polishing etc get done outside no matter what.

 

[lml999]

This product that ShowKey linked is your best solution, imo.

The finest dust collection system with 20hp motor can't capture all of the fines from tablesaw or mitersaw blades in my opinion. You have to have the recirculating filter to get those fines incrementally over time.

The big downside of outside air is a) its one half of a heat leak in your house -- as soon as a door is opened and b) its a wide open invitation to get humid air in the basement which is murder on bare steel and iron surfaces so commonly used in woodworking equipment. It also affects the actual wood -- your hard won precisely dimensioned S4S is suddenly a cupped banana board.

Thanks, I appreciate the input. I am concerned about the "make-up" air if I go with an exhaust approach. Our house is pretty tight already, so tight in fact that MassSave wouldn't sign off on top sealing our attic or adding any more insulation until we put in an HRV. (They first suggested that we just run a bathroom fan 24x7). Several appliances in the house want air -- NG boiler, cooktop and clothes dryer, and a wood stove.

I'll take a look at that self contained filtration system. It sure might be the easiest, and potentially the most effective.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I could go through the closet and run a flexible vent down the hall, into the utility room and out the back wall there. When I need ventilation, I hook up the vent. When I'm done, I disconnect the vent and coil it up in the utility room.

The length of the duct (whether you use this method or install something permanent) needs to be taken into account when sizing the fan - the longer it is, the more friction loss there will be.

 

[lml999]

The length of the duct (whether you use this method or install something permanent) needs to be taken into account when sizing the fan - the longer it is, the more friction loss there will be.

Good point. Thanks!

 

[CraigStu]

If you are looking right at your joists why not a 6 in hole through the end joist? The way most houses are framed the entire bottom wall (in your diagram) of your workshop is available for a duct exit. I have recently started looking into managing dust in my garage. First step was to make a few adapters on the outlets of bandsaws and sander so my shop vac will easily connect. But I notice the internal design of those outlets isn't much at all, so I am going to start sealing the bottom housings w/ sticky back weatherstrip. Thinking to seal as well as possible but leave some opening at the far side from where the vac attaches. I 'think' that might get me better flow though the machine so more of the dust is sucked out.

 

[Mainiac Mat]

I'm set up with single stage DC and ceiling filter (similar to what Showkey's pics, but my DC has pleated paper HEPA filter on top and plastic bag on bottom).

My DC is centrally located and I have short runs of flex hose with blast gates to each stationary machine.

I also have a branch that goes to a down draft table for sanding.

If I'm using hand held tools that have dust ports(sanders, biscuit jointer, etc...) I also hook them up to my shop vac. which has a HEPA filter on it.

If I'm doing a lot of sanding, I do all of the above and wear an N95 mask with flap valve.

Shop still gets messy and needs vacuuming often, but I'm not breathing fine dust and neither are my wife and kids.

 

[Mainiac Mat]

If you're going to discharge the DC out of doors, keep in mind that you could reverse draft your furnace or water heater.... you will need make up air... and as you know, that will be cold 2/3 of the year.

 

[ratdoggy]

This product that ShowKey linked is your best solution, imo.

The finest dust collection system with 20hp motor can't capture all of the fines from tablesaw or mitersaw blades in my opinion. You have to have the recirculating filter to get those fines incrementally over time.

The big downside of outside air is a) its one half of a heat leak in your house -- as soon as a door is opened and b) its a wide open invitation to get humid air in the basement which is murder on bare steel and iron surfaces so commonly used in woodworking equipment. It also affects the actual wood -- your hard won precisely dimensioned S4S is suddenly a cupped banana board.

I have a similar one. Might be rebadged.
That filter grabs a lot of the fine dust

 

[lml999]

If you're going to discharge the DC out of doors, keep in mind that you could reverse draft your furnace or water heater.... you will need make up air... and as you know, that will be cold 2/3 of the year.

Yes, this is a concern. May be enough of a concern to nix the idea of an outdoor exhaust. I've also thought about providing outdoor air directly to the NG boiler.

The indoor air scrubber looks like the way to go...

When we moved in, btw, we smelled gas in the basement. Turns out the PO had installed an oversized NG hot water heater, and didn't leave enough room for sufficient vertical gain for the flue coming off the heater. So it was backdrafting into the basement, trying to kill us. (It did not succeed.)

I replaced the NG hot water heater with an indirect unit off the boiler, adding a zone. Problem solved. But I'm still going to add some make up air for the boiler...(but that's a different thread...)

 

[Toolfool]

I'll put this here if you'd like to learn more :
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php

 

[spudley]

I'll put this here if you'd like to learn more :
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php

Thanks for posting this Toolfool. I've only read about 5% of this man's research. Pretty sure I could've read War and Peace in less time.

 

[tdkkart]

Trade in all your fancy woodworking stuff and get a metal lathe, milling machine.

 

[Toolfool]

Thanks for posting this Toolfool. I've only read about 5% of this man's research. Pretty sure I could've read War and Peace in less time.

I designed my shop and DC system in Washington based on the information on that website. I never realized how 'fine' the fines are until one day the sunlight was shining through a shop window, at just the right angle, 20 minutes after I had made a rip on the table saw. Just one rip. I could see the tiny particles just suspended in the air. That's the stuff you need to worry about. My new shop will incorporate a clearvuecyclone system and 2 air filters like my Washington shop. Can't afford NOT TO.

Edit : the suspended dust scenario was with the DC system running, and before I added Powermatic air filtering systems and particle masks.

 

[lml999]

I'll put this here if you'd like to learn more :
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php

Thanks Toolfool, that's really helpful!

Some really scary information there...I need to keep my shop a LOT cleaner than i do now. And that's just the start.

 

[ratdoggy]

At least this **** didn't get into my lungs.....
My shop is in the basement and it's not easy keeping the saw dust down.
I don't remember the last time I changed it out but even so..

 

[Showkey]

At least this **** didn't get into my lungs.....
My shop is in the basement and it's not easy keeping the saw dust down.
I don't remember the last time I changed it out but even so..

Agree and the DIY risk is not any where close to the link scare........if you take some reasonable precautions.

Live in a dusty windy location? Amazing how your body can deal with contamination.

If your concerned about risk, fumes and chemicals is a better place to be concerned vs woodworking dust. Woodworking dust is nuisance that your wife might hate when it migrates from the basement shop.

 

[lml999]

Wood shop in the basement can be done with a shop vac, small dust collection and air filter system with no outside air intake or exhaust. All three can be setup for less than $1000. Small shop small random project simple JET a filter system can do the job.

If your finishing with paint or varnish exhaust can be helpful but not absolutely critical as there are many low or no VOC choices. Finish in the garage is another no coat alternative.

Wen has a comparable product at around $300, available at my local big box store. I did some reading of the Jet reviews it and seems that theyve had some issues with quality control (noisy motors, unit getting very hot, etc.).

Thoughts on the Wen versus Jet?

Thanks!

 

[Showkey]

Ask This Old House DIY filter:

Building one of these for the sanding times.


Jet is noisy.......not necessarily loud. The more air you move the more noise. The jet is 3 speed.......I often run on low. The filters on the JET are reusable and effective.
Wen stuff has been the low budget, low quality for 50 years

 

[lml999]

Quick update... I ordered the big filter hood for my ShopSmith dust collector...needed to do that as the one on the unit is *old*. And a couple of new collection hoses as the old ones were badly crimped.

And I ordered two of the small Wen air filtration units. i was going to order one large one (1000 CFM max), and then figured that two (400cfm each), placed at opposite corners of the shop would give me better air circulation in the shop and therefore more net filtration. Overall price was about the same.

Now I have rewire the shop...the PO, bless him, wired the entire shop on one circuit, and running anything more than the ShopSmith table saw and the DC will blow the circuit, leaving me in the dark. I assume that the addition of the Wen(s) to that circuit is a non-starter!

 

[Frede162]

My shop is constantly evolving with dust collection. I recently changed my Delta 1200 cfm system changed from 1 micron bags to a Super Dust Deputy vented outside. I'm currently making my way around the shop improving at tool collection by fabricating what I can to save $. I also refer Bill Pentz for just about everything.

 

[Firebrick43]

If you are looking right at your joists why not a 6 in hole through the end joist? The way most houses are framed the entire bottom wall (in your diagram) of your workshop is available for a duct exit. I have recently started looking into managing dust in my garage. First step was to make a few adapters on the outlets of bandsaws and sander so my shop vac will easily connect. But I notice the internal design of those outlets isn't much at all, so I am going to start sealing the bottom housings w/ sticky back weatherstrip. Thinking to seal as well as possible but leave some opening at the far side from where the vac attaches. I 'think' that might get me better flow though the machine so more of the dust is sucked out.

+1.

Is your basement all the way to the ceiling below grade. The absolute best solution from a health standpoint is to eject all the exhaust of the dust collector outside. Yes it uses more heating/cooling energy but no issues with fines getting circulated over and over in the shop. They chips and big dust can be collected using a cyclone or thein baffle. I personally use two 797 truck filters. Much cheaper for the same filter that is sold as "hepa dust collector filters"

The air purifier is still probably a good idea to run for a couple hours after running machines. I wonder about how "true" the specs are on those Chinese filters" Some of the other hepa filters they make are no where near their advertised specs.

 

[lml999]

+1.

Is your basement all the way to the ceiling below grade. The absolute best solution from a health standpoint is to eject all the exhaust of the dust collector outside.

Not really an option. One wall is below grade against the front of the house, the second is below grade against the garage pad. The other two walls are both interior.

Not possible to exhaust to the front of the house, or into/through the garage.

I could potentially run a duct out to the left side of the house through a closet, but that would be a 15 foot run, and I'd need to provide make up air. Might be a good supplement to the air filtration system. I'll have to do some exploration (with a drill...)

 

[Firebrick43]

Not really an option. One wall is below grade against the front of the house, the second is below grade against the garage pad. The other two walls are both interior.

Not possible to exhaust to the front of the house, or into/through the garage.

I could potentially run a duct out to the left side of the house through a closet, but that would be a 15 foot run, and I'd need to provide make up air. Might be a good supplement to the air filtration system. I'll have to do some exploration (with a drill...)

Is the upper level stick built?

 

[lml999]

Is the upper level stick built?

Yes. Traditional colonial above.

 

[herz]

I've spent one day with a table saw in the basement and dust issues have already justified a 2x increase in my woodshop budget. Thanks for the input on DC - time to get shopping

 

[lml999]

I've spent one day with a table saw in the basement and dust issues have already justified a 2x increase in my woodshop budget. Thanks for the input on DC - time to get shopping

I knew I had to do something once i saw all the dust collected on my KN95 mask. So I bought two inexpensive WEN air filtration units. Dust collector alone is not nearly sufficient...

 

[WilsonLR]

I realize this thread ended months ago with a two WEN unit solution. Glad you did that. I thought I'd add a "breadcrumb" here for those who find this thread seeking to solve the same problem.

The Shopsmith DC is an old-school filter bag based one. After reading most of Bill Pentz and a few others, I retrofitted my old-school Delta 50-179 filter bag DC with a Wynn cartridge. Your Shopsmith should be easy to do the same. The name of the game is to stop the DC from adding to the problem that your WEN filtration units are "solving". Everything that escapes from your DC unit and the tool being used can end up in your lungs on its way to the WEN filters. I built the Bill Pentz filter using a Wynn canister and an inline vortex fan with 8" input. It has tons more capacity, easy to maintain and basically infinitely reusable. I also use 14" fans strategically placed to push air toward that unit. I use a mechanical timer to control it. It's noisy but my lungs are worth it. A pair of ISOTunes Link hearing protection solved that problem nicely and makes for way better listening to tunes or whatever. YMMV.