Thoughts on a new socket set

[Dave455]

Dave,
Asking because I've not seen /used a KoKen ratchet. Would they be any different that the Proto 4749? I can find the Proto pearhead ratchets around here for $5-10

I’ve never seen the 4749 so can’t give a direct comparison.

I have used the Proto 3/8, of different vintages, and I must admit I find them a bit underwhelming.

I’d take a Koken 3/8 in preference to those particular Proto, but I might take the Proto branded Facom in preference to both. Close though.

 

[Dave455]

SK ratchet (L) vs KoKen (R).

The SK is a classic design, and nicely chromed, but the KoKen is the better tool.

The SK is quite crude compared to the KoKen - note the general level of fit, the quality of the knurling, the lump of “flash” on the drive of the SK, and the crude circlip (which catches your fingers in some circumstances).

The KoKen is the better made tool, like comparing a Swiss watch to a crude clock, and feels nicer to use.



SK socket (L) compared to KoKen. Both used.

From the outset the SK perhaps had the better looking chrome, especially to the inexperienced, but the KoKen looks better to me, and has worn better. Like the ratchet, it‘s clearly the more precise tool too.

However, note the wear. The SK shows a lot of “bruising”. The KoKen has none at all.

 

[Shoreline_]

The Koken looks like an old Proto

 

[KnurledNut]

SK ratchet (L) vs KoKen (R).

The SK is a classic design, and nicely chromed, but the KoKen is the better tool.

The SK is quite crude compared to the KoKen - note the general level of fit, the quality of the knurling, the lump of “flash” on the drive of the SK, and the crude circlip (which catches your fingers in some circumstances).

The KoKen is the better made tool, like comparing a Swiss watch to a crude clock, and feels nicer to use.



SK socket (L) compared to KoKen. Both used.

From the outset the SK perhaps had the better looking chrome, especially to the inexperienced, but the KoKen looks better to me, and has worn better. Like the ratchet, it‘s clearly the more precise tool too.

However, note the wear. The SK shows a lot of “bruising”. The KoKen has none at all.

Worth noting:
SK 60t
Koken 20t

 

[Rinspeed]

The KoKen is the better made tool, like comparing a Swiss watch to a crude clock, and feels nicer to use.

That's the same thoughts I would make comparing a KoKen Z-series to a Dual 80.

 

[KnurledNut]

To the OP @jasonrohrer
I would keep the Husky set. That’s a decent ratchet and it has held up for you. Add a long flex head ratchet like a Snap-on FLF80A and a set of mid-length or deep sockets. You’ll need a 10mm shallow too since that Husky set didn’t come with one.

 

[liliysdad]

Worth noting:
SK 60t
Koken 20t

20 teeth? Jeez….thats rough

 

[bkdc]

Like others have chimed, I wouldn‘t buy a set of ratchets/sockets. I’d buy a separate set of sockets and then buy the ratchets that you want. Even made-in-China tools have come a long long long way with improvements in machining and tolerance. With a 6 point socket with any kind of flank-drive type fit, almost anything out there will work. Whether it’s Husky or Craftsman or Snap-on. It’s just a matter of small nuisances.

I own a full Proto chromed 1/2 inch 6-point in socket set because I was looking for made-in-USA without wanting to pay Snap-on prices. Williams-USA only had 12-point sockets in 1/2 size. The sockets are beautiful but definitely thicker than Snap-on/Williams, and now with duplicates in my toolbox, I probably wouldn’t get them again. These days, I grab the thick Williams USA impact sockets even for hand ratchet work. Chrome sockets come out for fit issues so most sockets sit like gleaming eye candy with very little use.

I have most of the 6-point Williams USA sockets in 1/4 and 3/8 metrics all every single Z-EAL metric socket that Koken puts out in 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2. It is rare that I go for the short sockets because it typically won’t fit for nuts (there’s always some protruding portion of a bolt which prevents a fit) but when I’m using a KoKen Z ratchet, the combination is absolutely amazing.

Value from a Williams USA 6-point set (short and tall) is also amazing.

My SAE socket inventory???? A set of made-in-China sockets from Costco/Kirkland value set. No old cars in my garage. I figure in another decade next decade, only rusting cars or classics will require SAE.

 

[liliysdad]

I figure in another decade next decade, only rusting cars or classics will require SAE.

And that’s the only kind I want in my shop!

 

[Dave455]

Worth noting:
SK 60t
Koken 20t

On paper it’s a huge difference, and the SK should be the clear winner, but in practice it’s the other way round.

20 teeth? Jeez….thats rough

They’re not. I can’t really tell you why, but the KoKen ratchet’s, particularly in 1/4” drive, feel nothing like the figures suggest.

Now, I’ll admit I’m not a “fine tooth” snob. I do love the Dual 80, especially in 3/8 and 1/2 inch drive, but everything else I’ll take on it’s merits

I’ve got older Stahlwille 1/4” drive ratchets, and having got used to finer mechanism’s they now feel quite coarse. The newer mechanism’s are nicer, but the newer plastic backplates are not.

On the other hand, I’ve got several of the older Hazet ratchet’s, and love these. Low tooth count or not, they’re great to use, so design and manufacture count for more than tooth count alone.

Ditto with the KoKen. Ignore the figures, try the tool, and see how it handles. If it’s really an issue go Z Series, but I don’t find it is.

Ultimately, as my Dad used to say “You pay your money and make your choice”!

 

[KnurledNut]

On paper it’s a huge difference, and the SK should be the clear winner, but in practice it’s the other way round.

They’re not. I can’t really tell you why, but the KoKen ratchet’s - particularly in 1/4” drive feel nothing like the figures suggest.

Now, I’ll admit I’m not a “fine tooth” snob. I do love the Dual 80, especially in 3/8 and 1/2 inch drive, but everything else I’ll take on it’s merits

I’ve got older Stahlwille 1/4” drive ratchets, and having got used to finer mechanism’s they now feel quite coarse. The newer mechanism’s are nicer, but the newer plastic backplates are not.

On the other hand, I’ve got several of the older Hazet ratchet’s, and love these. Low tooth count or not, they’re great to use, so design and manufacture count for more than tooth count alone.

Ditto with the KoKen. Ignore the figures, try the tool, and see how it handles. If it’s really an issue go Z Series, but I find it just isn’t.

We all know several here are in love with Koken. But if one is to be unbiased in appraisal, all pros and cons need to be weighed, not just the ones we are passionate about.

Like the ratchet, it‘s clearly the more precise tool too.

My reply about tooth count was largely in reference to this statement. 60t is more precise than 20t on paper and in real life, regardless of how it feels and regardless of backdrag. As many know, there are diminishing returns once above 60t.
More than that, one must consider that SK offers a conversion kit that effectively doubles the count.

Cosmetically, your SK looks unusually bad. Not sure why, thats really not typical. Koken wins the beauty contest. But if we focus on function, the SK mechanism is much more of a precision device than the simple gear, twin pawl and spring arrangement of the Koken. Rueb’s very strong and reliable design was decades ahead of the competition and holds its own to this day.

Lets not forget the purpose of ratchets, to turn fasteners. The bolt doesn’t care who’s name is on it, it’s gonna put up a hell of a fight to any opponent it wishes. I’ll take form follows function any day over function following form.

 

[Tynee]

That's the same thoughts I would make comparing a KoKen Z-series to a Dual 80.

In favor of Koken or Snappy?

 

[Dave455]

We all know several here are in love with Koken. But if one is to be unbiased in appraisal, all pros and cons need to be weighed, not just the ones we are passionate about.

Well, I’m not really one of them.

KoKen are one a number of manufacturers whose tools I’ve come to rate quite highly as a result of experience. At the moment, partly I’ll admit due to currency fluctuations, they represent about the best value for me.

My reply about tooth count was largely in reference to this statement. 60t is more precise than 20t on paper and in real life, regardless of how it feels and regardless of backdrag. As many know, there are diminishing returns once above 60t.

My comment on precision was largely in regard to the fit and finish, the overall quality of manufacture, rather than working arc.

Cosmetically, your SK looks unusually bad

That is true.

I think SK did better with the larger tools. If you make a small one to the same level of fit / finish it always looks worse.

I’m not an SK hater, in fact I regarded their tools quite highly. Good “mid tier” American made . I also thought that some of their sets were well thought out, but that’s past tense.

I probably wouldn’t advise O.P. to go hunting for a used SK in preference to a new KoKen, Wright or whatever.

 

[liliysdad]

They do look nice, but the 20t mechanism is an absolute deal killer for me and I am sure many others. The Z series look better, but I just can't see what they do better than the Dual 80s or Matco Eighty8s that aren't exactly hard to find new or used. I don't particularly care for round head ratchets to begin with, so the S-K isn't really a player for me, other than for reasons of nostalgia.

 

[Kscardsfan]

Milwaukee isn’t an American company. It’s owned by TTI out of Hong Kong, China.
They do offer some USA made hand tools oddly enough.

They're trying to offset the made and owned in China thing by offering overpriced and underwhelming US made hand tools I think. But I am also a skeptical person by nature.

 

[Rinspeed]

In favor of Koken or Snappy?

Not even close, the Dual 80s are much smoother and precise.

 

[Kscardsfan]

And that’s the only kind I want in my shop!

I'm in the same boat. And I'm now actively adding farm equipment into that list of old **** to spend time and money on lol.

 

[Dave455]

They do look nice, but the 20t mechanism is an absolute deal killer for me and I am sure many others. The Z series look better, but I just can't see what they do better than the Dual 80s or Matco Eighty8s that aren't exactly hard to find new or used. I don't particularly care for round head ratchets to begin with, so the S-K isn't really a player for me, other than for reasons of nostalgia.

I can only say that I speak as someone who has a actually used the tools, which some who write them off have not.

I don’t generally claim that KoKen are better than Snap On. My usual comment is that they are 90% of the quality for 35% of the price, which is a fair trade for a lot of folks.

In reality, both manufacturers have strong and weak areas. The Dual 80 ratchet is about the best out there in my opinion - certainly in 3/8 drive - so anything else won’t be as good.

As far as KoKen are concerned, yes, the standard ratchets are a weak area for them - again, in 3/8 drive - but in some areas (bit sockets for example) I would take the KoKen in preference to Snap On.

In this instance we were talking 1/4 drive, and I have mixed experiences of the Dual 80 ratchets in this size. When they’re good they’re very nice, and Snap On offer many things that other manufacturers struggle with (such as long flex and extra long), but the KoKen are very good in 1/4 drive.

I wouldn’t personally buy into the Z Series UNLESS I wanted the features that the system offers - a compact system for working on modern vehicles. That, essentially, is what they do better, but know that before you buy.

KoKen should probably get on and offer a finer tooth standard ratchet, and I suspect they will over time.

Here are some of the tools in question, in 3/8 drive. Z Series far left, everything else the regular line.


I have no experience of the Matco 88. I’m in the U.K. and Matco are non existent here. However, folks whose opinions I regard seem to rate the 88 highly.

One thing I note is that Matco are quick to offer long and extra long handle versions, almost as standard. For vehicle work, I regard these as almost essential, and that doesn’t change if I’m using 1/4 drive - I often need the reach if not the leverage - and as I said above, some manufacturers don’t understand this.

 

[richfinn]

They do look nice, but the 20t mechanism is an absolute deal killer for me and I am sure many others. The Z series look better, but I just can't see what they do better than the Dual 80s or Matco Eighty8s that aren't exactly hard to find new or used. I don't particularly care for round head ratchets to begin with, so the S-K isn't really a player for me, other than for reasons of nostalgia.

I have both the Ko-ken Z series (72t) and Snap On Dual 80s.

I Think of the 3/8" Z series system as more of a halfway house somewhere between 1/4" drive and 3/8" drive tools, it's just a little more compact with less drag to make life a bit more comfortable in tight spots.

Snap-On 3/8" is definitely a better bet for general purpose wrenching if you don't need the "shrunk in the wash" tolerances of Zeal

I really like the regular line of sockets/nut-grip sockets/knurled extensions too, very affordable in the UK

 

[jasonrohrer]

I think where Ko-Ken wins is backdrag, from all the measurements and tests that I've seen.

See:

In some tests, Ko-Ken has 3x less backdrag than SnapOn and friends:

They also, apparently, win in terms of customer service.

They are willing to build a 3201AMW-6P set for me, replacing all the 12pt sockets with 6pt at the same price as the 3201AMW set. They are also willing to sell me the tray and box separately, in case I want to assemble my own set, etc. Very flexible and responsive, which is nice.

I'm still going to check out the 1/4" set first, to see what it's like. It's only 20t, where my Husky is 72t, but we'll see how they compare in terms of backdrag. That's not fair, because the Husky is 3/8", but I'm still curious.

 

[Shoreline_]

I dont know what you guys are saying to Snap-On customer service but theyve always been super helpful over the phone. Even tho I have years of truck receipts, they never even asked me to prove where I bought it from. For my KRL she sent me a slide set plus an extra she said if I have another bum drawer, I dont have to call. She didnt ask me my serial number - just a model number.

 

[AEAdam]

I dont know what you guys are saying to Snap-On customer service but theyve always been super helpful over the phone. Even tho I have years of truck receipts, they never even asked me to prove where I bought it from. For my KRL she sent me a slide set plus an extra she said if I have another bum drawer, I dont have to call. She didnt ask me my serial number - just a model number.

same

 

[AEAdam]

For the ratchet debate, I’ll add:

Ratchet designs are compromises between back drag and strength. You can’t have low back drag and high strength. You must pick one.

Typically, fine teeth (and light pawl spring pressure) will really help reduce back drag. But fine teeth are smaller, so you have more load reacted by a smaller area. Lightening the spring pressure, which Koken may have done, can cause the ratchet to slip under load. My guess is, since back drag ultimately is effected by friction, Koken may have polished their gear teeth.

SK came up with a solution in the 1930s with the round head ratchet that made them famous. Their gear/head was larger than the competition. That’s how they made a reasonably strong ratchet, but it was never, will never, be as strong as other ratchets.

Dual 80, is a 2 pawl ratchet, where each pawl has multiple teeth. The multiple teeth, along with the precision in the manufacturing, allows multiple teeth to react the torque we apply, overcoming the #1 short coming of fine toothed ratchets. It’s an amazing design made possible by advanced manufacturing processes unavailable years ago.

Matco & etc came out with a stacked pawl design, that functioned a little like the Snap On, but with thinner pawls, which are technically weaker and more prone to wear, but somehow strong enough.

So the questions become how strong do you need your ratchet to be? What arc angle is acceptable for a ratchet used for restricted access in modern engine bays? And how little back drag do we really need?

I‘ll give you my opinions and would like to hear yours:

1) I don’t need strong short ratchets. That’s not what I use them for. I want low back drag in my short ratchets, high strength in my long ratchets. The trouble is, tool manufacturers use the same mechanisms for all ratchets of a given drive size regardless of length. Therefore, there is no optimal brand or design in my opinion.

2) I don’t care about tooth count or arc angles, I care about distance required to make the ratchet click. A long ratchet benefits from high tooth count so it can click in a reasonable amount of space. Short ratchets, tooth count doesn’t really matter.

3) Back drag only shows up when you are installing fresh hardware, or removing loosened hardware. I don’t do either task with my long ratchets because I’m impatient. I typically switch to my smallest ratchet for both these tasks because they ratchet faster. So do you need your long, strong ratchets to have low back drag? It can be convenient for those few times where you are almost done and too lazy to switch ratchets. But I’ve never once thought, ”man I wish this FHFL80 had lower back drag” Not once. This is where the reviews and testing let us down.

My advice: don’t think in terms of brands, or ratchet designs, think in terms of your tasks and find ratchets to support what you do. For me, it’s long, strong, and fine tooth to crack stuff free or apply near final torque, and as short as possible, low back drag and comfortable to hold, for fast installations and removals.

PS snap on makes some long 1/4” drive flex head ratchets which are very strong and they are very nice to have (THLF72). I’m thinking seriously about converting one to 3/8” drive. This is the one concession I’m willing to make to a mid length ratchet.

PPS All ratchets‘ back drag diminishes as they wear. I have a worn F80 (not my favorite form factor) that is oh so smooth and easy to click. I bought it used with the intention of rebuilding it and couldn’t bring myself to do that.

 

[jasonrohrer]

I dont know what you guys are saying to Snap-On customer service but theyve always been super helpful over the phone. Even tho I have years of truck receipts, they never even asked me to prove where I bought it from. For my KRL she sent me a slide set plus an extra she said if I have another bum drawer, I dont have to call. She didnt ask me my serial number - just a model number.

This was email customer service, so maybe phone is better.

Here's the exchange. It wasn't *terrible*, mind you, just not helpful, and kinda the minimal-effort customer service that I see all over the place. Close the ticket, that's the priority, it seems.

I asked:

I'm looking at this set here:

https://shop.snapon.com/product/sup...AE-Shallow-General-Service-Socket-Set/218AFSP

Does Snap-On make a box with a lid that would be a good fit for this plastic tray?

If not, what are the exact dimensions of the plastic tray?

Thanks!
Jason

They responded:

Hi Jason,

Unfortunately we do not have the measurements for the tray that comes with 218AFSP. Nor do we show a case for it.


Thanks,
Shannon
Snap-on Customer Care

I responded:

Can someone on your end measure the tray?

Or can I have the Snap-On truck come here so that I can measure the tray myself?

Thanks!
Jason

They responded:

Hello Jason,

Thank you for contacting Snap-on Tools. Shipping dimension for item 218AFSP is 20"x6"x2". Hope this helps!

Thank you,
Christine
Snap-on Tools Customer Care

The tray comes in a cardboard box, and they gave me the dimensions of the cardboard box...

But you see the one-line responses, barely answering my question, completely ignoring other parts of my question (like whether the truck could come to me).

Now compare Ko-Ken:

I asked:

I really like the look of this set here:

https://kokenusa.com/products/socket-set-3-8sq-dr-2

But... I'm looking for 6pt sockets, not 12pt.

Is there a version of this set that comes with 6pt sockets?

I want Metric and SAE all in the same set, and I really like all the accessories that come in the above set (speeder handle, etc). I also like how it all fits in the same box together. I just want 6pt sockets.

Thanks!
Jason

They responded:

Hi Jason,

Thanks for reaching out...for whatever reason, that particular set is Only offered in the 12-point socket variety at the moment...The similar, smaller sets around it in the catalog (page 100-103) all seem to come with a mix of 6 and 12-point Metric and SAE. I'm wondering if its because the set you're interested in comes with a Whitworth series of sockets which Most people buy in the 12-point variety from us so Japan maybe decided to be consistent and offer 12-P in the standard socket series within the set as well?

Any other set you see that comes with "3400M" or "3400A" would be indicative of 6-point. The only option really to get everything you desire in the specific set you mention would be to purchase the accessories and rail-sets of the desired sockets separately and save yourself a bit of money in doing so. I realize you wouldn't get case and plastic with cutouts that they sit in but lead time would be cut down quite a bit in getting the items separate as well. I'm not sure if this set is available in stock overseas but it could be upwards of 8-10 weeks before we could get it anyhow, whereas the majority of components individually are likely in stock here in MA. Let me know if you need any further questions.

~ Chris ~
Koken USA Support

I responded:

Thank you for that detailed response!

I actually don't need Whitworth at all... I just liked the Metric/SAE together with all the accessories. The speeder handle is really nice, and great that it fits in the same box.

I have thought about piecing things together separately.

Is there any way I could buy the metal box with plastic tray from 3201AMW separately? Then I could populate it with 6pt sockets!

I'm really looking for a "run and gun" socket set, which is why having it all fit together in a box is crucial.

Did you say MA, like Mass?

I'm in Dover, NH. Is there a showroom down in MA where I could see things in person?


Jason

They responded:

Hi Jason,

Yes, we're in Westford...only about an hour from Dover! We don't really have a showroom or display cases but we could certainly have you tour the warehouse where we keep all of our stock as we're the North American distributor for Ko-ken Japan. Just give us a heads up whenever you'd like to swing down to see if we have whatever you're interested in looking at first is in stock.

In the meantime, I'll ask Japan if they can sell us Just the case and plastic insert for that specific set and I'll let you know what they can do for us. otherwise, we can pin-point some other kit options for you too that will give you non-whitworth 6-point sockets in both metric and SAE.

~ Chris ~
Koken USA Support

I responded:

Thank you, Chris, that's a very generous offer of a tour. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm down that way.

For the time being, I think I'm going to get the 1/4" set, which seems to be in-stock in the US. That will let me kinda "kick the tires" on a Ko-ken set. Assuming that I'm smitten, I can then figure out how to assemble a 3/8" set.

I will stand by for news on the 3/8" tray and metal box, for sure.

This is the one that I'm about to buy:

https://kokenusa.com/products/1-4-sq-dr-metric-sae-socket-set-6-p-25-pcs
2201AM

28 are showing in stock on the USA website, so I will order it there.

Any news on the 1/4" Speed handle?

https://kokenusa.com/products/speed-handle-1-4sq-dr
2780

Jason

They responded:

Hi Jason,

I won't know exact lead time on the 2780 for a couple of days but I imagine we'll have at least a few available for sale within the next 2-3 weeks.

Regarding the metal box and tray/insert Only request, here's what Japan got back to me with:

Item Code: 3201AMW-BOX (Case and Plastic insert only)
Availability: available
Price: $56.10 ea.


Item Code: 3201AMW
Availability: middle July

For your information, we can offer you 3201AMW-6P which includes same ratchets and 6-point sockets instead of 12-point sockets. The price would be same as 3201AMW.

Also, we can offer you the plastic insert only of N7 which can place all metric sockets, inch sockets, and same ratchets of 3201AMW, not including Whitworth sockets.

N7 can be placed in the same metal case of 3201AMW.

N7 Price: 11.85 ea.

~ Chris ~

Koken USA Support

Can you spot the difference between the SnapOn exchange and the Ko-Ken exchange?

 

[jasonrohrer]

Ratchet designs are compromises between back drag and strength. You can’t have low back drag and high strength. You must pick one.

Yes, Project Farm's results (for 1/4" drive) match what you're saying. In general, the lower back-drag ratchets were weaker.




However, for the 3/8" drive, this is NOT true, but only for one data point:






There's the gearless... with the lowest back-drag AND the highest strength.

But in this entire thread, no one mentioned the gearless as their favorite ratchet.

Ah, here's why:

Posi Grip Ratchets? They look interesting…

Made in USA, lifetime warranty, gearless ratchets. Sold on eBay for a fairly reasonable price. They get good reviews. Anyone here have any experience with them?

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Hohn]

For the ratchet debate, I’ll add:

Ratchet designs are compromises between back drag and strength. You can’t have low back drag and high strength. You must pick one.

Typically, fine teeth (and light pawl spring pressure) will really help reduce back drag. But fine teeth are smaller, so you have more load reacted by a smaller area. Lightening the spring pressure, which Koken may have done, can cause the ratchet to slip under load. My guess is, since back drag ultimately is effected by friction, Koken may have polished their gear teeth.

SK came up with a solution in the 1930s with the round head ratchet that made them famous. Their gear/head was larger than the competition. That’s how they made a reasonably strong ratchet, but it was never, will never, be as strong as other ratchets.

Dual 80, is a 2 pawl ratchet, where each pawl has multiple teeth. The multiple teeth, along with the precision in the manufacturing, allows multiple teeth to react the torque we apply, overcoming the #1 short coming of fine toothed ratchets. It’s an amazing design made possible by advanced manufacturing processes unavailable years ago.

Matco & etc came out with a stacked pawl design, that functioned a little like the Snap On, but with thinner pawls, which are technically weaker and more prone to wear, but somehow strong enough.

So the questions become how strong do you need your ratchet to be? What arc angle is acceptable for a ratchet used for restricted access in modern engine bays? And how little back drag do we really need?

I‘ll give you my opinions and would like to hear yours:

1) I don’t need strong short ratchets. That’s not what I use them for. I want low back drag in my short ratchets, high strength in my long ratchets. The trouble is, tool manufacturers use the same mechanisms for all ratchets of a given drive size regardless of length. Therefore, there is no optimal brand or design in my opinion.

2) I don’t care about tooth count or arc angles, I care about distance required to make the ratchet click. A long ratchet benefits from high tooth count so it can click in a reasonable amount of space. Short ratchets, tooth count doesn’t really matter.

3) Back drag only shows up when you are installing fresh hardware, or removing loosened hardware. I don’t do either task with my long ratchets because I’m impatient. I typically switch to my smallest ratchet for both these tasks because they ratchet faster. So do you need your long, strong ratchets to have low back drag? It can be convenient for those few times where you are almost done and too lazy to switch ratchets. But I’ve never once thought, ”man I wish this FHFL80 had lower back drag” Not once. This is where the reviews and testing let us down.

My advice: don’t think in terms of brands, or ratchet designs, think in terms of your tasks and find ratchets to support what you do. For me, it’s long, strong, and fine tooth to crack stuff free or apply near final torque, and as short as possible, low back drag and comfortable to hold, for fast installations and removals.

PS snap on makes some long 1/4” drive flex head ratchets which are very strong and they are very nice to have (THLF72). I’m thinking seriously about converting one to 3/8” drive. This is the one concession I’m willing to make to a mid length ratchet.

PPS All ratchets‘ back drag diminishes as they wear. I have a worn F80 (not my favorite form factor) that is oh so smooth and easy to click. I bought it used with the intention of rebuilding it and couldn’t bring myself to do that.

Great post, your reasoning seems impeccable to me (as usual).

I comment just to say that back drag and strength in particular tend to be vastly overblown in significance. It's quite rare, in my experience, to have a bolt or screw that is both so tight you cannot spin it by hand but also so loose that the backdrag of the ratchet exceeds it. And if that rare event occurs, you can put your hand on the socket or fastener and add just enough resistance to overcome the backdrag.

Backdrag is mostly a non-issue for any ratchet above the worst of the worst Pittburgh/princess auto grade stuff. Any tekton/capri/gearwrench/craftsman/EPAuto/Icon will have acceptably low backdrag. And you it will give you that in a ratchet priced $40-$55.

As for physical strength, you correctly mention that strength is one of the tradeoff variables against physical size and tooth count and such. But most ratchets are plenty strong if not abused. Those pictures of techs putting cheaters on the Dual 80s and arching the handles without breaking the ratchet are impressive, but IMO kind of pointless. A tech putting a 5ft pipe on a ratchet has no place in my shop. This is basic mechanic skill type stuff and knowing how not to abuse a tool.

I would much rather have a slightly weaker ratchet that has a smaller more compact head. I submit that the 240lb-ft proof rating of a Tekton 3/8 is perfectly sufficient for any 3/8 ratchet tasks. When Client Graphics tested 3/8 breaker bars, very few of them exceeded 240 lb-ft, and even then, they only made it to 270 or so.

Indeed, one reason the "low profile" or "small body" ratchets are catching on so much is because you simply need the compact size more than you need brute strength. Inexperienced youngsters think brute strength matters most. But maybe there's a reason experienced techs aren't using that tiny 10mm socket on a huge 1/2" drive ratchet. Experienced wrenches value small size and weight, easy of use, accessibility, etc-- they are the ones who are using 1/4" drive whenever possible.

My small body Tekton is now my favorite ratchet. It's a flex head 1/4 drive with the larger 3/8 anvil. It's PERFECT for so many jobs under the hood with the common 8mm-14mm socket sizes. I love it. I kind wish I had a 1/2 drive version (based on a 3/8 body). The small body gives compact size, light backdrag, super compact head size, and all kind of advantages while allowing the use of larger sockets.

 

[Hohn]

Can you spot the difference between the SnapOn exchange and the Ko-Ken exchange?

It's obvious, but it's hard to attibute to a company vs a particular employee. That said, I do find it representative of a company culture quite often.

There's a reason people expect certain things from Chik-fil-a. And it's not because one particular restaurant had some good ideas about employee training. It starts at the top.

 

[jasonrohrer]

It's obvious, but it's hard to attibute to a company vs a particular employee.

Well, SnapOn also didn't send me a follow-up survey... if they cared about service, maybe they would?

Ko-Ken didn't send a survey either, of course.

 

[richfinn]

This was email customer service, so maybe phone is better.

Here's the exchange. It wasn't *terrible*, mind you, just not helpful, and kinda the minimal-effort customer service that I see all over the place. Close the ticket, that's the priority, it seems.

I asked:



They responded:


I responded:


They responded:


The tray comes in a cardboard box, and they gave me the dimensions of the cardboard box...

But you see the one-line responses, barely answering my question, completely ignoring other parts of my question (like whether the truck could come to me).

Now compare Ko-Ken:

I asked:


They responded:


I responded:


They responded:


I responded:


They responded:



Can you spot the difference between the SnapOn exchange and the Ko-Ken exchange?

I'm not surprised my Ko-Ken dealer in the UK is extremely helpful too

 

[liliysdad]

I would imagine a comparison of sales volume, catalog size, and employee number would go very far toward explaining the difference in customer service quality.

The KoKen fellow has a warehouse next door he can walk into and look at all the things. The person on the other end at SnapOn probably doesn’t even know where the warehouse is.

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

It’s a nice tape measure, sometimes working in metric is simpler than fractions.

In one of my past lives I worked as a draftsman/application engineer. It came at a point in time when all of our customers were switching to metric. It was actually a very painless process.

 

[Samuel D]

My small body Tekton is now my favorite ratchet. It's a flex head 1/4 drive with the larger 3/8 anvil. It's PERFECT for so many jobs under the hood with the common 8mm-14mm socket sizes. I love it. I kind wish I had a 1/2 drive version (based on a 3/8 body). The small body gives compact size, light backdrag, super compact head size, and all kind of advantages while allowing the use of larger sockets.

I have a 1/2″-drive Hazet 916HPK ‘HiPer’ ratchet that I am becoming quite fond of for similar reasons.

It’s basically a 3/8″-drive handle, 200 mm long, with a 1/2″-drive anvil. Gives most of the advantages of a 3/8″-drive ratchet with my 1/2″-drive sockets (which are over-represented in my toolbox for historical reasons that I can’t reasonably afford to correct).

 

[Samuel D]

Can you spot the difference between the SnapOn exchange and the Ko-Ken exchange?

Sure.

But I have trouble with the expectations here. That exchange with Ko-ken USA (the official distributor there?) cost them more than they will ever make in profit on your purchase. So it makes no sense to do that to close an individual sale. Maybe there are other good reasons to do it?

If I ran a tool company I would provide vastly more information up front, on the website. That can be low cost if done right and done once.

Having to email a person to ask them to measure a tray out back and send you the dimensions is wildly inefficient all around.

 

[Samuel D]

I ordered some Ko-ken stuff all the way from Japan (into Europe – expensive) to taste the super-low backdrag.

It sure was super-low, but as others have said by now, I’m not quite sure it was worth the fuss.

But the Ko-ken tools have other merits. Clearly high quality.

Also some quirks, e.g. the ratchet direction switch works the ‘wrong’ way (like the Proto / Plomb pear-heads Ko-ken presumably copied back in the day).

And I didn’t realise my Z-series stuff would be essentially incompatible with other 3/8″-drive tools, so tightly do the sockets fit on other ratchets – if they fit at all. I definitely should have stuck to the standard non-Zeal Ko-ken stuff.

Having tried many ratchets, from Facom’s classic round-heads (the original high-strength, fine-tooth, low-backdrag ratchet) to many Germans to modern Taiwanese and now Japanese with Ko-ken, I think the Dual 80 design strikes a very useful compromise between backdrag, strength, minimum engagement angle (affected by tooth-count and play in the mechanism), head size, and availability in many handle lengths and types. Downsides are cost and availability to buy. My own TF72 has never hinted at jamming, unlike some of Dave455’s 1/4″-drive Dual 80s. But I only have one 1/4″-drive Dual 80.

I think I’d pass on the fitted case. Over time you’re gonna want various bit sockets, a torque wrench, a universal joint (swivel), oddball extensions, maybe a ratchet with an extra-long handle, etc., and before you know it the case becomes a hindrance.

 

[Hohn]

I have a 1/2″-drive Hazet 916HPK ‘HiPer’ ratchet that I am becoming quite fond of for similar reasons.

It’s basically a 3/8″-drive handle, 200 mm long, with a 1/2″-drive anvil. Gives most of the advantages of a 3/8″-drive ratchet with my 1/2″-drive sockets (which are over-represented in my toolbox for historical reasons that I can’t reasonably afford to correct).

What a find! Thank you for the mention of this tool. It's essentially just what I described, a "small body" 1/2 ratchet.

 

[richfinn]

I ordered some Ko-ken stuff all the way from Japan (into Europe – expensive) to taste the super-low backdrag.

It sure was super-low, but as others have said by now, I’m not quite sure it was worth the fuss.

But the Ko-ken tools have other merits. Clearly high quality.

Also some quirks, e.g. the ratchet direction switch works the ‘wrong’ way (like the Proto / Plomb pear-heads Ko-ken presumably copied back in the day).

And I didn’t realise my Z-series stuff would be essentially incompatible with other 3/8″-drive tools, so tightly do the sockets fit on other ratchets – if they fit at all. I definitely should have stuck to the standard non-Zeal Ko-ken stuff.

Having tried many ratchets, from Facom’s classic round-heads (the original high-strength, fine-tooth, low-backdrag ratchet) to many Germans to modern Taiwanese and now Japanese with Ko-ken, I think the Dual 80 design strikes a very useful compromise between backdrag, strength, minimum engagement angle (affected by tooth-count and play in the mechanism), head size, and availability in many handle lengths and types. Downsides are cost and availability to buy. My own TF72 has never hinted at jamming, unlike some of Dave455’s 1/4″-drive Dual 80s. But I only have one 1/4″-drive Dual 80.

I think I’d pass on the fitted case. Over time you’re gonna want various bit sockets, a torque wrench, a universal joint (swivel), oddball extensions, maybe a ratchet with an extra-long handle, etc., and before you know it the case becomes a hindrance.

Why not use "Mister Worker" or "UK Tools Ltd" for Ko-ken in Europe (reasonable pricing)

I don't have any issues mixing my Z series ratchets with other types/brands of sockets or extensions

Agree on the fitted case, just make one

 

[jasonrohrer]

Having tried many ratchets, from Facom’s classic round-heads (the original high-strength, fine-tooth, low-backdrag ratchet) to many Germans to modern Taiwanese and now Japanese with Ko-ken, I think the Dual 80 design strikes a very useful compromise between backdrag, strength, minimum engagement angle (affected by tooth-count and play in the mechanism), head size, and availability in many handle lengths and types.

Yeah, I will seek out a Dual-80 and a Matco Eighty8, just to try them.

I don't have any issues mixing my Z series ratchets with other types/brands of sockets or extensions

I think he's saying the Z-series sockets don't fit well on other ratchets. Can you test this on your end, Rich, and see if you can confirm?

I'm not planning on getting Z-zeries sockets any time soon, but it's good to know that there might be compatibility issues.

Since the Ko-Ken warehouse is an hour from my house, and my 1/4" non-Z set shipped yesterday, it should be here today or tomorrow. You will see pretty pictures.

But I have trouble with the expectations here. That exchange with Ko-ken USA (the official distributor there?) cost them more than they will ever make in profit on your purchase. So it makes no sense to do that to close an individual sale. Maybe there are other good reasons to do it?

There are obvious reasons why bigger companies have terrible customer service (efficiency, cost-benefit analysis, bureaucratic bloat, off-shoring, etc.).

But... that doesn't mean there's no such thing as "good customer service," or that we shouldn't expect/demand it, or that we shouldn't praise the companies that still have it.

In recent times, I've had amazing customer service experiences with True Refrigerators, Festool, Betterley Industries, Sweetwater, eGauge, Sensaphone, Ko-Ken, Southbend, and would you believe it, Bank of America.

I've had mixed customer service experiences with Woodpeckers.

I've had poor experiences with SnapOn.

I've had insanely terrible experiences with Amazon.... like... pinch me, this 6-month long nonsense must be a nightmare that I can wake up from.

 

[Tynee]

In recent times, I've had amazing customer service experiences with ... would you believe it, Bank of America.

Nope. I don't believe it...

I knew there was something funny about this thread, and now I know what it is,,, You're a bot, and this whole thread was an elaborate hoax intended to spread false propaganda in favor of one of my least favorite companies of all time!!!

In seriousness...This is a company that once canceled my credit card while I was in the middle of a work trip for which I used that card to cover expenses until I could submit them for reimbursement. When my card was refused at the gas pump, I called them and asked why. They said, "Sir, your account was closed at your request. We can open a new one for you, I'll just need some information for the application."

Turns out the fixed interest rate I had on that account was too low for them to make any money (not that it mattered since I didn't carry a balance), and the new rate I was approved for was significantly higher and variable. I wasn't a customer of BoA's very long after that, and will never be again.

/[threadjack]...

 

[Samuel D]

Why not use "Mister Worker" or "UK Tools Ltd" for Ko-ken in Europe (reasonable pricing)

Brexit has made purchases from the UK expensive and bureaucratic for me, and I wasn’t aware Mister Worker did Ko-ken.

Either way, it’s still pretty expensive in my book. Not Snap-on expensive, but Hazet expensive. Once you get up to Hazet money, there’s a lot of competition for my cash … not least Hazet. But thanks for bringing the Mister Worker option to my attention.

I don't have any issues mixing my Z series ratchets with other types/brands of sockets or extensions

That’s interesting. I found my Z-series sockets annoyingly tight or even not quite fully fitting on some of my other ratchets or extensions, especially Snap-on and Bahco 7750 (Dual 80) from memory. I’m not sure if it was the square dimensions or something to do with the different detent geometry. Am in another country so can’t confirm right now. I ended up treating my Z-series stuff as its own unique drive size.

Don’t get me wrong, I thought the visible quality of the Ko-ken stuff I got was superb.

 

[Samuel D]

I think he's saying the Z-series sockets don't fit well on other ratchets.

Right. Sometimes too tight, and I mean really tight.

Since the Ko-Ken warehouse is an hour from my house, and my 1/4" non-Z set shipped yesterday, it should be here today or tomorrow. You will see pretty pictures.

Looking forward to the photos.

But... that doesn't mean there's no such thing as "good customer service," or that we shouldn't expect/demand it, or that we shouldn't praise the companies that still have it.

I agree we should praise it when it happens. Heck, most of my time dealing with companies nowadays is chatting with useless bots on WhatsApp. That’s how it works in The Netherlands now.