Thoughts on a new socket set

[richfinn]

A mixture of Z series ratchets and sockets, Ko-ken extra, regular nutgrip, regular Ko-ken extensions, some Facom stuff in 1/4 & 3/8"

All interchangeable in my experience (the 1/4" Zeal are very small so a bit hard to grab in smaller sizes sometimes)

The 3/8" Ko-ken Extra are presumably a forerunner of Z series, but there is a Z series 17mm semi deep in some of the pics and it works OK with Facom and Snap On

 

[AEAdam]

I haven’t yet encountered there’s a situation where I wish my snap on sockets fit bolts tighter. Nor have I wished for sockets shallower than snap on shallows. For me personally, the upgrade from 1980s craftsman to snap in was dramatic enough.

But I absolutely LOVE that Koken is thinking about sockets, expending some brain cells, trying stuff, and bringing it to market. I’m super happy you guys are finding success with this innovative company.

That said I don’t think it’s fair to compare customer service of a US distributor, fielding questions for a fledgling foreign tool company, with a $5B/yr world dominating tool mega company. There is no yard stick on which these 2 companies reside.

I know the sockets all turn bolts so from our perspective they are comparable, but that’s a bit myopic on our part. We have snap on toolboxes in every airport around the planet and every one of those boxes from Bangladesh to Juno Alaska gets Snap On warranty service. So cut them a break if they don’t bend over backwards measuring packaging for a home owner who’s not 100% sure what he wants.

Example: I had a torque problem in Cape Canaveral and I called Snap On Customer Service. The Snap On regional torque specialist showed up the next morning with a trunk load of micro torques and techangles. That’s what they do. That gentleman knew his business and ours. He knew exactly what tools we had and didn’t have. He stuck around until we were good.

BTW-we had blue Bluepoint roll carts. Manned Space toolboxes were the barest bones boxes I’ve ever seen. Even the Marine Corps had nicer kits (but I think they are paid for by NAVAIR).

Hopefully this provides just a different perspective on Snap On customer service.

 

[Sal Bandini]

I haven’t yet encountered there’s a situation where I wish my snap on sockets fit bolts tighter. Nor have I wished for sockets shallower than snap on shallows. For me personally, the upgrade from 1980s craftsman to snap in was dramatic enough.

But I absolutely LOVE that Koken is thinking about sockets, expending some brain cells, trying stuff, and bringing it to market. I’m super happy you guys are finding success with this innovative company.

That said I don’t think it’s fair to compare customer service of a US distributor, fielding questions for a fledgling foreign tool company, with a $5B/yr world dominating tool mega company. There is no yard stick on which these 2 companies reside.

I know the sockets all turn bolts so from our perspective they are comparable, but that’s a bit myopic on our part. We have snap on toolboxes in every airport around the planet and every one of those boxes from Bangladesh to Juno Alaska gets Snap On warranty service. So cut them a break if they don’t bend over backwards measuring packaging for a home owner who’s not 100% sure what he wants.

Example: I had a torque problem in Cape Canaveral and I called Snap On Customer Service. The Snap On regional torque specialist showed up the next morning with a trunk load of micro torques and techangles. That’s what they do. That gentleman knew his business and ours. He knew exactly what tools we had and didn’t have. He stuck around until we were good.

BTW-we had blue Bluepoint roll carts. Manned Space toolboxes were the barest bones boxes I’ve ever seen. Even the Marine Corps had nicer kits (but I think they are paid for by NAVAIR).

Hopefully this provides just a different perspective on Snap On customer service.

Koken Tools was founded in 1946, so fledgling is an odd adjective to describe the company.

OPs comparison between the 2 companies was apt because he described the differences between them for the exact same request. Your story is just that, your experience with what is arguably the guy's job. If anyone else had a torque problem he would've helped that person as well. Snap-On pays him to do that as part of his job. What is Koken's reply to your torque problem? We don't know because there is no comparison, like in the OP's example.

OP's request was very unique and showed the difference between Japanese culture and American culture. The size of the company is irrelevant. Besides, I don't know if Koken Tools is part of Koken, but they had revenue of over 12 billion Yen last year. Sounds to be about the size or even bigger than Snap-On.

Koken gets the major win here for customer service.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

OP may be off topic but I bought good set of wrenches, an FD SO set 10 to 22mm, before upgrading to ratchets and sockets. My few CM wrenches were ok but so nice to work with nice wrenches.

 

[AEAdam]

Koken Tools was founded in 1946, so fledgling is an odd adjective to describe the company.

OPs comparison between the 2 companies was apt because he described the differences between them for the exact same request. Your story is just that, your experience with what is arguably the guy's job. If anyone else had a torque problem he would've helped that person as well. Snap-On pays him to do that as part of his job. What is Koken's reply to your torque problem? We don't know because there is no comparison, like in the OP's example.

OP's request was very unique and showed the difference between Japanese culture and American culture. The size of the company is irrelevant. Besides, I don't know if Koken Tools is part of Koken, but they had revenue of over 12 billion Yen last year. Sounds to be about the size or even bigger than Snap-On.

Koken gets the major win here for customer service.

How much is 12B Yen in USD please?

BTW, I’m happy with your conclusion and I’m thrilled that is the case. Just trying to help set expectations.

 

[dscheidt]

Great post, your reasoning seems impeccable to me (as usual).

I comment just to say that back drag and strength in particular tend to be vastly overblown in significance. It's quite rare, in my experience, to have a bolt or screw that is both so tight you cannot spin it by hand but also so loose that the backdrag of the ratchet exceeds it. And if that rare event occurs, you can put your hand on the socket or fastener and add just enough resistance to overcome the backdrag.

Once backdrag gets below a certain point, it doesn't really matter, because as you say, the bolt isn't going to move when you ratchet for the next bite. And basically any mid range or better ratchet is at that point these days, but that hasn't been true all that long. I have very clear memories of struggling with this problem when I was teenager using my dad's ratchets -- 70s era craftsman pear headed clubs. Using better stuff where you could just swing the ratchet and not brake the socket is so much faster and less tiring. spinning a fastener in by spinning the socket or extension was easier, too. It was pretty enlightening on the differences in tool quality, and what actually matters in a tool. Lots of people around here have similar memories, I'm sure, and that's why they're more worried about drag. Strength too. The only ratchets I've ever broken were old (and often cheap) and they all failed in the ratchet gearing. Modern stuff breaks in the drive, and is all plenty strong.

 

[ecotec]

Once backdrag gets below a certain point, it doesn't really matter, because as you say, the bolt isn't going to move when you ratchet for the next bite. And basically any mid range or better ratchet is at that point these days, but that hasn't been true all that long. I have very clear memories of struggling with this problem when I was teenager using my dad's ratchets -- 70s era craftsman pear headed clubs. Using better stuff where you could just swing the ratchet and not brake the socket is so much faster and less tiring. spinning a fastener in by spinning the socket or extension was easier, too. It was pretty enlightening on the differences in tool quality, and what actually matters in a tool. Lots of people around here have similar memories, I'm sure, and that's why they're more worried about drag. Strength too. The only ratchets I've ever broken were old (and often cheap) and they all failed in the ratchet gearing. Modern stuff breaks in the drive, and is all plenty strong.

The 1980’s/1990’s raised panel Craftsman 3/8” ratchets would fail at the anvil most often. Occasionally the gearing, but usually the anvil. This was without any cheater bar, or even that much *** behind them. They would just rip right off.

When I changed brands, I never broke another ratchet.

 

[richfinn]

I haven’t yet encountered there’s a situation where I wish my snap on sockets fit bolts tighter. Nor have I wished for sockets shallower than snap on shallows. For me personally, the upgrade from 1980s craftsman to snap in was dramatic enough.

But I absolutely LOVE that Koken is thinking about sockets, expending some brain cells, trying stuff, and bringing it to market. I’m super happy you guys are finding success with this innovative company.

That said I don’t think it’s fair to compare customer service of a US distributor, fielding questions for a fledgling foreign tool company, with a $5B/yr world dominating tool mega company. There is no yard stick on which these 2 companies reside.

I know the sockets all turn bolts so from our perspective they are comparable, but that’s a bit myopic on our part. We have snap on toolboxes in every airport around the planet and every one of those boxes from Bangladesh to Juno Alaska gets Snap On warranty service. So cut them a break if they don’t bend over backwards measuring packaging for a home owner who’s not 100% sure what he wants.

Example: I had a torque problem in Cape Canaveral and I called Snap On Customer Service. The Snap On regional torque specialist showed up the next morning with a trunk load of micro torques and techangles. That’s what they do. That gentleman knew his business and ours. He knew exactly what tools we had and didn’t have. He stuck around until we were good.

BTW-we had blue Bluepoint roll carts. Manned Space toolboxes were the barest bones boxes I’ve ever seen. Even the Marine Corps had nicer kits (but I think they are paid for by NAVAIR).

Hopefully this provides just a different perspective on Snap On customer service.

Ko-ken aren't quite as foreign as you might imagine. The founder originally emigrated from Japan to the USA and found work with Ford ,became a Citizen and raised his family there.

He only returned to Japan at the behest of GM to assist with a new venture out there.

He was so enamoured with the USA made tools he encountered during his early career as a Mechanic in America he started the tool business just as Japanese industry really started to grow post WW2 (I'm sure his links to the USA definitely helped him as Japan started to rebuild).

You can definitely see the American influence in the tools, packaging and old fashioned customer service that the Ko-ken distribution network provides.

In Snap-On's defense I've had some great mobile dealers over the years, I think online/bricks and mortar sales and service isn't really Snap-On's strength. It's having a guy come to your place of business regularly to take good care of your tooling requirements (they are the experts at this.)

I love both brands, I think that healthy competition and diversity is good for tool companies and especially for us the end users

 

[gilbo]

A mixture of Z series ratchets and sockets, Ko-ken extra, regular nutgrip, regular Ko-ken extensions, some Facom stuff in 1/4 & 3/8"

All interchangeable in my experience (the 1/4" Zeal are very small so a bit hard to grab in smaller sizes sometimes)

The 3/8" Ko-ken Extra are presumably a forerunner of Z series, but there is a Z series 17mm semi deep in some of the pics and it works OK with Facom and Snap On

Very nice, pieces. I've been able to slowly acquire a couple Koken ratchets on the cheap through Amazon JP.

Still waiting on a compact 3/8" in 1/4" body to be delivered that I ordered back in Feb.

 

[JeepYJ]

Koken Tools was founded in 1946, so fledgling is an odd adjective to describe the company.

OP's request was very unique and showed the difference between Japanese culture and American culture.

The OP contacted the Koken distributor in the USA, not Koken directly.
I think that would be more akin to calling your tool truck guy and asking for some measurements rather than S-O corporate.

 

[bonneyman]

I am impressed with Koken's quality, it's just that I have so many good condition older ratchets and sockets I don't need any more. If I was a young guy just starting out I might just give Koken a try.

 

[liliysdad]

The OP contacted the Koken distributor in the USA, not Koken directly.
I think that would be more akin to calling your tool truck guy and asking for some measurements rather than S-O corporate.

This is very much the case, in my opinion, except that with the SnapOn truck guy, you can walk onto the truck and measure it yourself.

 

[jasonrohrer]

One thing that wasn't mentioned in this thread, that I can find, is a "multi-position" or "indexing" ratchet.

I just learned about these... wow!

So THIS is reason enough to give the Dual-80 mechanism a day in court.

Ko-Ken doesn't make one of these, though you can piece one together from a stubby ratchet attached to a regular ratchet... though even that is not quite the same thing.

This is very much the case, in my opinion, except that with the SnapOn truck guy, you can walk onto the truck and measure it yourself.

I did ask SnapOn to put me in touch with a truck/guy, and they ignored me. It's hard to give a complete one-line answer to a two-part question...

 

[four.cycle]

"multi-position" or "indexing" ratchet.

Snap-on isn't the only outfit who made that. It was actually invented by James E. Cole: patent 5419221 - licensed exclusively to Snap-on by Cole May 1997 (see attachments below)

Splined / Splined Tool Corp., Richardson, TX / see also Superior Ratchet & Tool Co., see also Superior Tool Co., see also Radialock Tool Co. / multi-position indexing head ratchet / patent 5419221 May 30 1995 & 5775184 Jul 7 1998 & 5820288 Oct 13 1998 & 6000299 Dec 14 1999 & 6161982 Dec 19 2000 James E. Cole & 20040134314 Jul 15 2004 & 20050178249 Aug 18 2005 Charles A. Cole & 20070169590 Jul 26 2007 Charles Cole / see https://insight.rpxcorp.com/litigation/txndce-126893-gummow-v-splined-tools#overview / https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914788eadd7b049343e7db0 / https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/i-need-help-identifying-this-ratchet.118770/ /

Superior / Superior Ratchet & Tool Co. see Splined Tool Corp., Richardson, TX; see also Superior Tool Co., Plano, TX; see also Radialock Tool Co., Plano, TX /

====

>> not sure who this is or how it comes into the picture. I do not find this name connected to the others: Radialock Tool Co., 2712 So. Rigsbee Dr. Ste. 4, Plano, TX 75074 /

Radialock / Radialock Tool Co., 2712 So. Rigsbee Dr. Ste. 4, Plano, TX 75074 / see Splined Tool Corp., Richardson, TX /

====

A German company, Proxxon, also manufactured one: Proxxon index ratchet demo

====

Looks like there was one made by "Husky" as well, although I don't think we have any information about it.

====

Looks like Stanley made a version as well. Stanley model 89-808 patent 6247386 Jun 19 2001 Stephen Gummow

====

You might check ebay for the Splined, Superior (STC), or Radialock model and find a used one. None of those are still in production.

No idea why this isn't on datamp.org yet... I sent it in last November.

 

[jasonrohrer]

Snap-on isn't the only outfit who made that. It was actually invented by James E. Cole: patent 5419221 - licensed exclusively to Snap-on by Cole May 1997 (see attachments below)

As a wannabe inventor, I'm so jealous! What a brilliant invention.

 

[jasonrohrer]

Also, to bring the "where things are made" question closer to home, here are some fellows making square-drive L-handles in the third world:

It's obviously a very complicated issue, with many facets, but... there's something about this video that makes me uncomfortable.

And even if I didn't care about human suffering (which I can't alleviate by not buying from these guys, because they'd be out of work and suffer more).... I probably don't want my "buy it for life" tool thrown on the floor 25 times during the course of production.

Let's compare it to this, shall we?

 

[four.cycle]

^ are you kidding? have you ever been in a big manufacturing plant?

aside from that: you think MATCO is going to release a video that shows all the dirt on the floor and the clutter?

 

[jasonrohrer]

^ are you kidding? have you ever been in a big manufacturing plant?

Yessir! My father owned a printing company, and I worked there when I was growing up. It looked very similar to the second video, and nothing like the first video. I.e., no dirt floors, workers (including me) were wearing steel toed boots, no hand-dipping things in hexavalent chromium while wearing dish gloves, etc.

 

[four.cycle]

GAH! apples and oranges.
Heidelbergs make a lot of noise, but they don't generate the sort of grime you see in a big manufacturing facility.
I went through the Oldberg plant (Toledo) in 1971 - pretty clean, actually. A lot of dust. A lot of exhaust from the forklifts racing around everywhere.
Not at all like the Fenton plant (Gardena, California) in which part of the facility had dirt floors - that was the area where they welded the mag wheels together.
Dirtiest one I went through was a starter/alternator/generator remanufacturing facility (which shall remain unnamed) just a bit east of me.
Most of the facility was outdoors, under a corrugated steel roof - open to the elements - with dirt for floor. That was where the tear-down line was located. If you ever ripped apart an old Ford starter (1961-1975 models) you know how much carbon builds up inside the solenoid cover. Every guy on that line was BLACK from the ears down - and I'm not referring to their race.
Then (my favorite) was our own facility up in Auburn. The tear-down area was usually about an inch-and-a-half deep with a mix of water, solvents, grease, and God-only-knows-what. I made the mistake of walking back there to ask one of the guys a question - wearing my San Remo loafers. I had to get them resoled the following week. Whatever that **** was ate those leather soles right off.

 

[rust in the eye]

Example: I had a torque problem in Cape Canaveral and I called Snap On Customer Service. The Snap On regional torque specialist showed up the next morning with a trunk load of micro torques and techangles. That’s what they do when you call from NASA

Fixed that for you, sir.

 

[silkman]

I cant believe OP still is undecided after 6 pages of GJ replies.

Anyways, based on the original requirements, heres my take on a 3/8 set with both american and metric sockets thats in one box and has some space for added stuff.

Stahlwille 45ma/28/5QR



In the QR socket sets everything locks with everything so theres no chance of dropping the 10mm from the extension in an engine bay...

QuickRelease socket set - 96020107

<ul><li>in a sturdy, stackable ABS plastic box</li></ul> <p><strong>Contains 33-pieces:</strong></p> <p>28 bi-hex sockets, 3/8"</p> <p><strong>No. 45</strong>: 7; 8; 9; 10; 11; 12; 13; 14; 15; 16; 17; 18; 19; 20; 21; 22 mm</p> <p><strong>No. 45a</strong>: 1/4; 5/16; 11/32; 3/8; 7/16; 1/2; 9/16...

stahlwille.com

Goodluck sourcing one though. Maybe through amazon de. TBS Aachen now sells everything for far above list price.

 

[jasonrohrer]

Ah! The locking extensions on the Stahlwille are cool! 12pt, though...

The 1/4" Ko-Ken set arrived today. Wow, just wow. Such attention to detail. I almost didn't want to touch the parts, so as not to smudge them. Felt like opening/handling a fine watch, more than a tool. That knurled handle is a chef's kiss.

The molded plastic in the case doesn't grip any of the pieces. They just sit loosely in their designated spots. So you don't have to fight with the plastic when you grab a tool. And the plastic is quite thick. Feels like it will last forever.

The ratchet beats the Husky on backdrag all day long. Not a fair fight, 3/8" vs 1/4", but.... Quite a long turn between clicks, though, with only 20 teeth.

The other thing that I didn't notice.... and another reason you all think these sets are out-dated, is that this is the 2753N ratchet, not the 2753NB.... so there's no quick-release button! Looks like ALL their sets come with the $9 cheaper version of the ratchet. I will talk to the Ko-Ken rep about upgrading the ratchet in my 3/8" set.

Pretty pictures, as promised.

 

[jasonrohrer]

Also, what is this little guy, and does any other manufacture make these?

Seems like.... if you were to put this on another ratchet, you'd kinda be making your own multi-position or indexing ratchet... but maybe without the ability to lock the position? Certainly seems like the "speeder handle" part would work, but I can't find any evidence of people using it that way.

 

[richfinn]

Ah! The locking extensions on the Stahlwille are cool! 12pt, though...

The 1/4" Ko-Ken set arrived today. Wow, just wow. Such attention to detail. I almost didn't want to touch the parts, so as not to smudge them. Felt like opening/handling a fine watch, more than a tool. That knurled handle is a chef's kiss.

The molded plastic in the case doesn't grip any of the pieces. They just sit loosely in their designated spots. So you don't have to fight with the plastic when you grab a tool. And the plastic is quite thick. Feels like it will last forever.

The ratchet beats the Husky on backdrag all day long. Not a fair fight, 3/8" vs 1/4", but.... Quite a long turn between clicks, though, with only 20 teeth.

The other thing that I didn't notice.... and another reason you all think these sets are out-dated, is that this is the 2753N ratchet, not the 2753NB.... so there's no quick-release button! Looks like ALL their sets come with the $9 cheaper version of the ratchet. I will talk to the Ko-Ken rep about upgrading the ratchet in my 3/8" set.

Pretty pictures, as promised.

Got to love the "Thank You" note and the complimentary sticker, good manners cost nothing

Welcome to the Ko-ken club

 

[four.cycle]

Also, what is this little guy, and does any other manufacture make these?

see here

 

[Dankotaru]

I got a Proto set for less than $50 a few weeks ago. If you do your searching it's pretty easy to find. I'm in the same boat, I'd rather buy American if it's all the same. I am also in a unique spot where I don't Need much of anything for my tools now, it's a want. I just can't say that out loud still. And damned sure can't say it around my wife.

Funny timing to read this, as I also just got a new Proto socket set from Zoro a few weeks ago for less than $50 shipped. 3/8 drive SAE 12 points, and they are beautiful. All my other Proto sockets are an older style, while these new ones have a nice, large size stamping that's very easy to read. I think they are a great deal.


For the guy who asked earlier in this thread why no one mentions Proto, I think they have some tools that are expensive and not the best value (like their 90 tooth ratchets that cost more than the MAC equivalent for some reason), but Proto sockets are a really good USA-made value for building a nice kit.

As to Koken, I have their wobble-fix extensions in 1/4 and 3/8 drive and recommend them. They stay in the fixed position when I want them to and don't 'flop' into a wobble, but the top knurling is the best feature and allows me to use it like a spinner to hand set fasteners before ratcheting them.

 

[jasonrohrer]

wobble-fix extensions

Whoa! Those are very cool.

I also just learned that Ko-Ken's intermittent knurling is designed to prevent things from rolling away. Looking damn cool is just a nice side-effect.

Here are those Wobble-fix extensions from Ko-Ken compared to the copycat Wobble-Plus extensions from Snap-On.... you can see that Ko-Ken's fit and finish are noticeably better.

Since the Ko-Ken set is less than half the price, this goes way beyond "good value for the money"....

 

[Dave455]

Ah! The locking extensions on the Stahlwille are cool! 12pt, though...

The 1/4" Ko-Ken set arrived today. Wow, just wow. Such attention to detail. I almost didn't want to touch the parts, so as not to smudge them. Felt like opening/handling a fine watch, more than a tool. That knurled handle is a chef's kiss.

The molded plastic in the case doesn't grip any of the pieces. They just sit loosely in their designated spots. So you don't have to fight with the plastic when you grab a tool. And the plastic is quite thick. Feels like it will last forever.

The ratchet beats the Husky on backdrag all day long. Not a fair fight, 3/8" vs 1/4", but.... Quite a long turn between clicks, though, with only 20 teeth.

The other thing that I didn't notice.... and another reason you all think these sets are out-dated, is that this is the 2753N ratchet, not the 2753NB.... so there's no quick-release button! Looks like ALL their sets come with the $9 cheaper version of the ratchet. I will talk to the Ko-Ken rep about upgrading the ratchet in my 3/8" set.

Pretty pictures, as promised.

Glad you like it!

Also, what is this little guy, and does any other manufacture make these?

Seems like.... if you were to put this on another ratchet, you'd kinda be making your own multi-position or indexing ratchet... but maybe without the ability to lock the position? Certainly seems like the "speeder handle" part would work, but I can't find any evidence of people using it that way.

I have one of those. It’s a really useful little tool.

As well as using it with a breaker bar, you can just click it onto an extension to quickly make up any special length ratchet. Got me out of a couple of situations.

You can just use it “as is” as a compact ratchet, or as you say as a multi position ratchet - many options.

Snap on offer these as well, and have done for decades. I suspect they originated the design. For me, these are three times the cost of the KoKen.


KTC Nepros also offer a version. It’s maybe neater, but not so versatile.

 

[Dankotaru]

I also just learned that Ko-Ken's intermittent knurling is designed to prevent things from rolling away. Looking damn cool is just a nice side-effect.

Interesting, I just figured the knurling design simply aided in grip. Clever.

 

[jasonrohrer]

Snap on offer these as well, and have done for decades. I suspect they originated the design. For me, these are three times the cost of the KoKen.

Curious.... does the non-recessed switch on the Snap-On version of this get in the way, and prevent it from being used as a speeder handle in combination with another ratchet? Looks like it might.

 

[Dave455]

Curious.... does the non-recessed switch on the Snap-On version of this get in the way, and prevent it from being used as a speeder handle in combination with another ratchet? Looks like it might.

That I can’t say as I only own the KoKen.

I must admit, probably 70% of the time I just use it as a short handy ratchet.

I tend to chuck it in my pocket with a 10mm socket if I’m changing batteries or suchlike.

Used it Sunday for disassembling some shelving.

 

[DarryT]

What's amazing is that someone who has your very basic, simple set of sockets right now is asking for advice on a bigger and better set, and some here are recommending some of the most expensive, professional grade equipment you can buy. As in buy for a lot of money.

Based on what you have right now there's no way you need to spend that kind of money on a better and more comprehensive socket set. Find a mid-grade, decent, bigger set, and for as much as you're going to use it it will still be in perfect shape to pass on to your kids or grandkids.

Snap-on? Seriously?

Just paid $200 for USA Cat socket sets (shallow & deep) a 6" cat extension & a Koken Zeal ratchet. Not Tekton cheap, but close. My son kept my Tekton set, I'm not sad, the Cats are next level.

 

[Rinspeed]

Just paid $200 for USA Cat socket sets (shallow & deep) a 6" cat extension & a Koken Zeal ratchet. Not Tekton cheap, but close. My son kept my Tekton set, I'm not sad, the Cats are next level.

Need a picture please.

 

[DarryT]

Need a picture please.

I should have taken a pic of ny 3 series next to a big excavator.

 

[Donka22]

As a wannabe inventor, I'm so jealous! What a brilliant invention.

Filing a patent cost about 4k. If you have a gadget , give it a shot. In my career as a mech designer /engineer , ive invented 3 things with patents, but rights are assigned to my employer. So my Bosses name is on the patents. Im not losing any sleep.

 

[jasonrohrer]

Just received a shipment from Snap-On: two of their Multi-position ratchets, the 3/8" drive F80MP with the Dual-80 head, and the 1/4" drive T27MP.

They arrived in a flat corrugated mailer. They were dumped together in a greasy plastic bag inside the mailer. They were covered with oil, grime, and fingerprints. The fit/finish is nowhere near what Ko-Ken offers. Maybe they nicked each other a bit during shipment, since they were both in the same plastic bag?

My Ko-Ken package, pictured above, made me feel like whoever assembled it really cared and took pride in what they were doing.

The Dual-80 head on the larger Snap-On ratchet is... interesting. It's very quiet, and you can hardly hear it operating. It almost feels like "steady friction" more than a clicky ratchet mechanism. And it has tons of back-drag. I thought Dual-80 would mean 160 clicks around the circle, but it's definitely only 80 clicks. The directional switch is sluggish with no audible click.

The 72t head on the smaller Snap-On ratchet is much louder and has less back-drag, though it has a kind of harsh or "scratchy" sound when it ratchets. The directional switch is more nimble with an audible click. The directional switch is very definitive feeling, where it's either left or right, and doesn't want to be in between at all.

Yes, the Ko-Ken 1/4" ratchet only has 20t, but the clicks it makes are very hollow, almost-musical "plunk" sounds. Though the directional switch is somewhat scratchy, and barely clicks, and is not as definitive as the switch on the Snap-On 1/4".

Of course, being able to use them at weird angles or as speeder handles is a big win for the Snap-On Multi-position ratchets, which is why I got them.

 

[AEAdam]

Just received a shipment from Snap-On: two of their Multi-position ratchets, the 3/8" drive F80MP with the Dual-80 head, and the 1/4" drive T27MP.

They arrived in a flat corrugated mailer. They were dumped together in a greasy plastic bag inside the mailer. They were covered with oil, grime, and fingerprints. The fit/finish is nowhere near what Ko-Ken offers. Maybe they nicked each other a bit during shipment, since they were both in the same plastic bag?

My Ko-Ken package, pictured above, made me feel like whoever assembled it really cared and took pride in what they were doing.

The Dual-80 head on the larger Snap-On ratchet is... interesting. It's very quiet, and you can hardly hear it operating. It almost feels like "steady friction" more than a clicky ratchet mechanism. And it has tons of back-drag. I thought Dual-80 would mean 160 clicks around the circle, but it's definitely only 80 clicks. The directional switch is sluggish with no audible click.

The 72t head on the smaller Snap-On ratchet is much louder and has less back-drag, though it has a kind of harsh or "scratchy" sound when it ratchets. The directional switch is more nimble with an audible click. The directional switch is very definitive feeling, where it's either left or right, and doesn't want to be in between at all.

Yes, the Ko-Ken 1/4" ratchet only has 20t, but the clicks it makes are very hollow, almost-musical "plunk" sounds. Though the directional switch is somewhat scratchy, and barely clicks, and is not as definitive as the switch on the Snap-On 1/4".

Of course, being able to use them at weird angles or as speeder handles is a big win for the Snap-On Multi-position ratchets, which is why I got them.

Appreciate you sharing your first impressions. I’m sure all ratchets change with wear.

My dual 80s seem to change with wear pretty dramatically. From new they can be stiff. With even moderate use, they get better. One of my favorites is an F80 I bought on eBay with a good deal of wear. I wanted to see what I could get for the least money. My intention was to rebuild. Instead, I cleaned it and reinstalled the worn guts.

Now I’m really quite skeptical of YouTube reviews. Much prefer the opinions of people who use their tools a lot. I think there are many GJ members who have both manufacturers ratchets.

 

[jasonrohrer]

Well, at least when the Snap-On is not broken in, my Husky 3/8" ratchet is way better than the Snap-On Dual-80 head. There's tons of back-drag on the Dual-80, and I ran into trouble with that when tightening some nuts on my drum sander yesterday. It's an old USA Performax machine that I just got (I'm the third owner), which means the bolts are somewhat chewed up, and thus you can't finger-tighten the nuts all the way down (there are very hard sticky spots throughout the travel of the nut, but there are smoother spots in between). The Dual-80 head would break through a sticky spot on the bolt, and then the heavy back-drag would halt progress on the next smooth spot. The Husky didn't have as much of a problem.

But the other issue is that the Dual-80 head is almost silent, and there's almost no tactile feedback when it "clicks," which means it's hard to even tell whether you are making progress or just back-dragging back and forth.

With the Husky, you can hear the clicks, so you know if you're making progress, or whether you've hit a smooth spot and are back-dragging.

Using the Snap-On multi-position ratchet as a speeder handle is... okay... but it's a hand motion that I don't quite have the hang of yet. And you can't fully tighten something easily when using it in speeder handle mode, which means you need to awkwardly click it back into straight mode at the very end, which probably involves taking the socket off the nut and putting it back on.

There were some awkward spots to reach on the drum sander, but at least in this case, the Multi-position feature didn't help, and the end of these MP ratchets are thicker, because of the MP swivel mechanism, so they are harder to fit in spaces that are narrow in the direction above the nut.

But the other factor here is that these Snap-on ratchets were expensive as all get-out... For the price, I was expecting the finest ratchet in the world, not a mixed bag in a.... greasy bag.

 

[AEAdam]

Well, at least when the Snap-On is not broken in, my Husky 3/8" ratchet is way better than the Snap-On Dual-80 head. There's tons of back-drag on the Dual-80, and I ran into trouble with that when tightening some nuts on my drum sander yesterday. It's an old USA Performax machine that I just got (I'm the third owner), which means the bolts are somewhat chewed up, and thus you can't finger-tighten the nuts all the way down (there are very hard sticky spots throughout the travel of the nut, but there are smoother spots in between). The Dual-80 head would break through a sticky spot on the bolt, and then the heavy back-drag would halt progress on the next smooth spot. The Husky didn't have as much of a problem.

But the other issue is that the Dual-80 head is almost silent, and there's almost no tactile feedback when it "clicks," which means it's hard to even tell whether you are making progress or just back-dragging back and forth.

With the Husky, you can hear the clicks, so you know if you're making progress, or whether you've hit a smooth spot and are back-dragging.

Using the Snap-On multi-position ratchet as a speeder handle is... okay... but it's a hand motion that I don't quite have the hang of yet. And you can't fully tighten something easily when using it in speeder handle mode, which means you need to awkwardly click it back into straight mode at the very end, which probably involves taking the socket off the nut and putting it back on.

There were some awkward spots to reach on the drum sander, but at least in this case, the Multi-position feature didn't help, and the end of these MP ratchets are thicker, because of the MP swivel mechanism, so they are harder to fit in spaces that are narrow in the direction above the nut.

But the other factor here is that these Snap-on ratchets were expensive as all get-out... For the price, I was expecting the finest ratchet in the world, not a mixed bag in a.... greasy bag.

Steve Jobs wanted Apple’s packaging to feel jewelry like. He studied jewelry packaging, wanting buyers to feel as tho what they just paid for was special. He was reinforcing his brand, and reinforcing the value or high price…. Prior to this, computer and related hardware was packed very simply and unimpressively.

I get the expectation. But I personally do feel a bit manipulated by all of this; packaging, unboxing, first impressions, have nothing whatsoever to do with the functionality of the product. If the one ratchet remains stiff longer than reasonable, send it back without another thought.

FWIW, none of my (15?) dual 80s are stiff or silent. Stiff and silent actually sounds like the tool is over packed with grease or something is wrong….But I’d use them first.

PS there’s a reason why people rave about Dual 80. They are probably the best ratchets on the market, Koken included. They are amazing combinations of strength and low backdrag, made in a dizzying array of configurations and styles. I personally wouldn’t let a first impression or unboxing experience throw me.

 

[liliysdad]

I feel as thought this is an incident of confirmation bias, from the very first criticism of the packaging.