Thoughts on Wiring a Temporary 220 Outlet for Welding

[cloves]

Hi everyone,

I need to do some welding on my truck, replace some rusty lower panel sheet metal. I have it my garage which currently only has one outlet for lights. My welder is a Lincoln Electric, the power specs are confusing. but I know it runs 220. My garage is temporary as I am in the middle of construction and in a few months will be converted it to a room. Then down the line I will be adding an attached garage (12 feet over). My house is wired for 200 amp service. I need to figure out how to get power to my welder.

Looking at the specs it says to use a 40 amp breaker which means I will have to use 8/3 wire. The garage is roughly 65 feet from the main power box. With that sort of run do I have to worry about voltage drops? If so does that mean I have to go up in wire and breaker? I see the lines come in rolls of 125ft. I am wondering if I just leave the roll spooled up with the extra footage so I can use it when I build the garage down the road?

My father in law mentioned a generator which I also have but the specs on my generator running rate is 3850 watts and 4850 surge. Not sure based on the specs I have enough juice for startup.

 

[The Cobbler]

If it was me, I would buy the wire you want/need for the feed to your sub panel in the future build. use it as the temp hook up for the welder, then roll it up for future use. just make sure you get it long enough!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Where is the current garage in relation to future garage?
Could you install a sub panel in current garage and run the welder from it?

 

[mm08822]

Based on the mfr requirements provided, run 10-2 off a 40a 2pole cb to a 6-50r.

Conductor/cb sizes mentioned utilize the welder exceptions permitted in art 210.

 

[RM209]

Any chance you have a dryer or oven receptacle nearby? You could make an extension cord to connect the welder to one of those outlets.

RM209

 

[cloves]

Based on the mfr requirements provided, run 10-2 off a 40a 2pole cb to a 6-50r. Conductor/cb sizes mentioned utilize the welder exceptions permitted in art 210.

You lost me on this one. Wouldn't I have to run 8/3 off a 40-amp double pole breaker? Is the 210 nec code?

Any chance you have a dryer or oven receptacle nearby? You could make an extension cord to connect the welder to one of those outlets. RM209

I had a 220 but its right next to the main box and it was removed since the new dryer is gas operated. Thought about running an extension cord but location would be almost the same as just running romex but romex would be cheaper.

Where is the current garage in relation to future garage?
Could you install a sub panel in current garage and run the welder from it?

Its about 12ft next to the current room. A subpanel would be more work then just running temp cable.

If it was me, I would buy the wire you want/need for the feed to your sub panel in the future build. use it as the temp hook up for the welder, then roll it up for future use. just make sure you get it long enough!

This is what I was thinking. If I run 8/3 cable say I get a 125ft reel and just leave it looped near the outlet then I could just run the full cable. Reason I don't want to splice the reel is so I don't have to add a junction box down the road. I am just not sure 8/3 will work yet. I haven't researched that far down the road.

 

[sberry]

You can run a 10 cable on a 50 for that welder, it could be 12 in pipe. If this is a 210 class feeder it will run from 30 breaker if you already have one, use a 10/2 or even a 12 if you had free wire.
The machine actually requires a 14.

 

[TractorJeff]

Welder wiring is based on duty cycle which is an exception to NEC ruling.
Do what SBerry suggests

 

[sberry]

Lincoln was really sniffing the circuit board glue when they wrote some of these manuals, that doesn't even list the wire size. Miller and Hobart were not all that much better and wrote it for those intimately familiar with code and Nema. They should really have a simple lay version of preference which could just as easily exceed code by a notch and would eliminate a lot of confusion.
The 175 is a very good machine. If this is rather temporary and you want to recover some wire you can use later run a 12/2 with ground and use a 30 breaker.
There is a possibility a guy could recover 8/3 and put it on a panel later but it is expensive and would really rather have 60A for one as it would be a little less fussy for future air comp and plasma/welding combo especially if a guy was to get a full 5hp comp

 

[theoldwizard1]

If it was me, I would buy the wire you want/need for the feed to your sub panel in the future build. use it as the temp hook up for the welder, then roll it up for future use. just make sure you get it long enough!

Concur ! and 8/3 is more than adequate with a 30A breaker.

If you get is as Romex/NM-B if will be very difficult to handle. I would recommend going with THHN even for your temporary hookup. Wire an Cable Your Way will cut to length, but you should order 10-20' extra.

You are going to have to do some shopping to find a box big enough for a 6-50 or you can use a surface mount one, but be careful banging it around on the ground because it will break.

 

[mm08822]

You lost me on this one. Wouldn't I have to run 8/3 off a 40-amp double pole breaker? Is the 210 nec code?


Nec article 210.21 B1 Exception 2 permits a reduction in conductor sizing and ocp for welder circuits only.

Nec Table 630.11A references a multiplier that can be used based upon the duty cycle listed on the equipment. The multiplier reduces the current carrying capacity of the supply conductors required.

You do not need a 3 conductor cable either for the welder.

 

[mm08822]

The chosen wording and order of the information provided on the Op’s nameplate makes for an awkward read no doubt. It’s all there, but forces a second read through.

At full output, the OP’s welder draws 20A. Full output duty cycle is listed at 30% from nec table 630.11A. The multiplier for supply conductor ampacity is 0.55. 20a x.55 = 11A >>>#14 cu conductor minimum size is permitted.

14-2 or 12-2 nm-b would easily work for the temporary welder branch circuit and provide cable for re-use in the Op’s remodel.

Mfr did recommend “20A wiring” which is greater than the minimum 11A nec requirement (12 vs. 14 cu).

30A cb should safely and conveniently work but mfr recommended 40A probably to eliminate most chances of nuisance tripping.



Trying to think ahead and re-use larger cable for a sub-panel is a waste of time when 12-2 or 14-2 nm-b can be used and re-used for the remodel. Buy the needed feeder size once a real plan is in place for a planned purpose sub-panel.

 

[bigb56]

Lincoln was really sniffing the circuit board glue when they wrote some of these manuals, that doesn't even list the wire size.

I suspect they are refraining from providing information that could be a potential liability for them. A homeowner installed welding circuit today could become a kiln circuit tomorrow.

 

[Bert_]

Both welder and motor circuits are allowed to have larger breakers than is normal for a given wire size.

For a normal (permanent) welder outlet I don't really like to use the minimum NEC size since there is a good change you will want to use that outlet for other equipment in the future. But it is perfectly legal for a permanent install.

For this temporary use I would use a 12-2 nm on the above mentioned 30 or 40 amp breaker. That size of wire will be easy to reuse even if you cut it now. Your welder only draws 20 amps at max output, and it only has a duty cycle of 30% at max output. NEC allows wire to be sized at 55% of 20a input because of the low (30%) duty cycle.

Also, why are you set on 8/3? A welder and any other 240v equipment has no need for the neutral. Use a 2 wire cable (12/2, 10/2, 8/2, 6/2)

 

[sberry]

12 on a 30 for this machine. 14 is allowed but it needs to be single circuit in pipe and 30 max breaker for this machine.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hi everyone,

I need to do some welding on my truck, replace some rusty lower panel sheet metal. I have it my garage which currently only has one outlet for lights. My welder is a Lincoln Electric, the power specs are confusing. but I know it runs 220. My garage is temporary as I am in the middle of construction and in a few months will be converted it to a room. Then down the line I will be adding an attached garage (12 feet over). My house is wired for 200 amp service. I need to figure out how to get power to my welder.

Looking at the specs it says to use a 40 amp breaker which means I will have to use 8/3 wire. The garage is roughly 65 feet from the main power box. With that sort of run do I have to worry about voltage drops? If so does that mean I have to go up in wire and breaker? I see the lines come in rolls of 125ft. I am wondering if I just leave the roll spooled up with the extra footage so I can use it when I build the garage down the road?

My father in law mentioned a generator which I also have but the specs on my generator running rate is 3850 watts and 4850 surge. Not sure based on the specs I have enough juice for startup.

SOunds like current garage where you want the welder outlet is detached and you only have one outlet in it with no subpanel.

If this is the case, then you need to be aware that code does not permit more than one circuit to a detached garage. You would have to abandoned the existing 120v outlet/circuit.

Any chance you have a dryer or oven receptacle nearby? You could make an extension cord to connect the welder to one of those outlets.

RM209

That may or may not work depending on type and size of circuit.

You lost me on this one. Wouldn't I have to run 8/3 off a 40-amp double pole breaker? Is the 210 nec code?

As has been said, code allows wiring for welder circuits to be reduced in size depending on welder duty cycle...

 

[mm08822]

12 on a 30 for this machine. 14 is allowed but it needs to be single circuit in pipe and 30 max breaker for this machine.

How so?

 

[sberry]

How so,,, what? I am probably not always clear or complete. If the minimum wire which is 14 is used the max breaker is 30. If the wire is 12 or better it can use a 50.

 

[mm08822]

12 on a 30 for this machine. 14 is allowed but it needs to be single circuit in pipe and 30 max breaker for this machine.

How so,,, what? I am probably not always clear or complete. If the minimum wire which is 14 is used the max breaker is 30. If the wire is 12 or better it can use a 50.

12 on a 30 for this machine. Will work but not the min/max’s permitted.
14 is allowed but it needs to be single circuit in pipe Why pipe? 14-2 Nm-b works and is more appropriate for Op's situation.
and
30 max breaker for this machine. No, 40A is the maximum permitted. 200% of welder FLC – nec 630.12.

How so,,, what? I am probably not always clear or complete.
If the minimum wire which is 14 is used the max breaker is 30. Up to 40A for this welder.
If the wire is 12 or better it can use a 50. CB rating has nothing to do with wire size. A 50A cb could be used only if welder FLC is 25A or more. Not the case for this welder.

 

[sberry]

This welder has additional of built in. It comes factory 50 end and is leagal for 50. While there is likely little dNger with a 14 cable it is listed as single circuit in pipe. It should be a size larger in cable and can't help think it can run a little better especially if this is a longer run.
I agree that a cable is appropriate for this poster. I believe in matching size g to demand in most cases but I always use a size up with the small welders, a 175 is small, needs all the help it can get. SOme for a buzzer, they allow 12 but they work a lot better on a 10, about 1/3 or less the v drop and their duty cycle gets exceeded all the time although not usually at full load. They run over 40A with small rods.
I have metered them at 43 at 115 on the dial.

 

[cloves]

Both welder and motor circuits are allowed to have larger breakers than is normal for a given wire size.

For this temporary use I would use a 12-2 nm on the above mentioned 30 or 40 amp breaker. That size of wire will be easy to reuse even if you cut it now. Your welder only draws 20 amps at max output, and it only has a duty cycle of 30% at max output. NEC allows wire to be sized at 55% of 20a input because of the low (30%) duty cycle.

Also, why are you set on 8/3? A welder and any other 240v equipment has no need for the neutral. Use a 2 wire cable (12/2, 10/2, 8/2, 6/2)

I though 8/3 would work down the road when I add a sub panel to the future garage (which will be attached next to the current room). Eventually I would want a better compressor and probably put a lift inside the garage. I have a few power tools and a dust extractor. I haven't figured out the power yet for the future but thought 8/3 would work.

SOunds like current garage where you want the welder outlet is detached and you only have one outlet in it with no subpanel.

If this is the case, then you need to be aware that code does not permit more than one circuit to a detached garage. You would have to abandoned the existing 120v outlet/circuit.

That may or may not work depending on type and size of circuit.

As has been said, code allows wiring for welder circuits to be reduced in size depending on welder duty cycle...

The garage will be attached. Regardless its interesting that you can only have 1 circuit if it is detached.

12 on a 30 for this machine. Will work but not the min/max’s permitted.
14 is allowed but it needs to be single circuit in pipe Why pipe? 14-2 Nm-b works and is more appropriate for Op's situation.
and 30 max breaker for this machine. No, 40A is the maximum permitted. 200% of welder FLC – nec 630.12.

How so,,, what? I am probably not always clear or complete.
If the minimum wire which is 14 is used the max breaker is 30. Up to 40A for this welder.
If the wire is 12 or better it can use a 50. CB rating has nothing to do with wire size. A 50A cb could be used only if welder FLC is 25A or more. Not the case for this welder.

This welder has additional of built in. It comes factory 50 end and is leagal for 50. While there is likely little dNger with a 14 cable it is listed as single circuit in pipe. It should be a size larger in cable and can't help think it can run a little better especially if this is a longer run.
I agree that a cable is appropriate for this poster. I believe in matching size g to demand in most cases but I always use a size up with the small welders, a 175 is small, needs all the help it can get. SOme for a buzzer, they allow 12 but they work a lot better on a 10, about 1/3 or less the v drop and their duty cycle gets exceeded all the time although not usually at full load. They run over 40A with small rods.
I have metered them at 43 at 115 on the dial.

What do you mean by "some for a buzzer".

Looks like the consensus is that I could run this welder on a 12/2 with a 40 amp breaker. 10/2 would probably allow the welder to run a bit better. Tons of info and knowledge on this thread, thanks to all who have shared it. I have picked a bunch of new tidbits I never knew.

Now looking at all that I just said above, is using my generator that has a 220 outlet as well a viable alternative? Or is that still just not enough juice? 3850 watts (4850 surge).

Is there a way to figure out the watts required? Starting the arc is the part that ***** the most juice. Since I am just tack welding thin sheet metal, its basically all I will be doing, heavy surges.

 

[mm08822]

Try it on some scrap.
3850/240 =~16 A. 4850/240 = 20A
20a being required for max welder output.

What % output do you expect to be running at for tack welding?

 

[Bert_]

Looks like the consensus is that I could run this welder on a 12/2 with a 40 amp breaker. 10/2 would probably allow the welder to run a bit better. Tons of info and knowledge on this thread, thanks to all who have shared it. I have picked a bunch of new tidbits I never knew.

With your welder and only 65', a #12 will not limit your welder at all. Your welder will pull 20a if you are running it at MAX output. Code allows 11 amp wire at the smallest, the next closest thing would be a #14. Even #14 would not cause any issues at 65'. There are no conduit requirements using any of these sizes.

Some 12-2 NM would be extremely easy to reuse later.

 

[bigb56]

I guess if it were me I would just build a #10 AWG extension cord with 6-50 ends and use it till the new building is finished and wired. It will be something you will always be able to use with just about any home hobbiest type machine. I have several and I couldn't do without them.

 

[rsanter]

Where is the laundry room and where is the electrical panel?
If the panel is on the side of the garage then install an outlet right to the inside of the panel or below the panel outside
If the laundry room is next to the garage then make an extension cord from Rolex and an outlet box

 

[sberry]

Same for a buzzer, I do this fast on phone.
A genset is an expensive way to run a welder. A cord could be a good investment if you have future use. I am not sure why they list a 40 breaker. The machine works with 20 to 50. I usually wire them 10/30 for a home port for them. The wire and materials are not a problem for me, it's stuff I stock.
What I do is different than how I might do it under different circumstances. If this was like it sounds run a 12 cable if you have to buy it, if you already have a 30 use it. I tend to use 30 on these anyway,,, I own 300 or more breakers, 1 of them is a 40 for a cooler. All the rest of 240 are 30 and 50 or 60 as panel feeds.
A 12 cable is cheap, you can use it again, it's common, it's a size bigger than it legally needs to be, this makes it work a little better, it gets you going safely while being the most practical and economical. It can be installed quickly.

 

[cloves]

Thanks for all the info guys, learned a lot about electricity. Going to get started working on this tomorrow. I opened up my welder and here is a shot of the plug. Apparently there are different 220 plugs which I didn't know. The 220 I have is completely different 4 prong inserts. Does anyone know the name of this style? None of the charts I found online match. The bottom ground is round which I can't seem to find looking at a chart.

 

[bigb56]

That's a Nema 6-50P and it fits into a Nema 6-50R. Very common on welders. Most just call it a welder recep.

It's technically a 240 volt receptacle, the four wire ones you refer to are 240/120 volt receptacles and welders don't use them because they don't have a neutral wire, they are strictly 240.

 

[sberry]

The auto stuff on the phone does what it wants sometimes. In one of the posts it was sposed to be OC and it correct it to of. I should have said built in thermal. It's directly after the switch in these type of machines. MVP have it in the 240 adapter, not needed for 120v as the breaker is smaller , at least not needed in the same sense it is used in the hi voltage,,,,, for protection of the cord for short circuit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The auto stuff on the phone does what it wants sometimes. In one of the posts it was sposed to be OC and it correct it to of. I should have said built in thermal. It's directly after the switch in these type of machines. MVP have it in the 240 adapter, not needed for 120v as the breaker is smaller , at least not needed in the same sense it is used in the hi voltage,,,,, for protection of the cord for short circuit.

Theres an edit button. Very useful tool

 

[Matt Matt]

Theres an edit button. Very useful tool

Ain’t that the truth.

I would suggest you not to do half *** and just do it legit, like you are plugging a furnace or heater into the same outlet next week.

I plug my welder, 3 hp Lathe, my heat treat oven (and sometimes my electrical furnace) all into the same outlet. Obviously not at the same time.

Edit; this is how the editing process works. My welder is ESAB 200 DTA. It is on a 40 amp circuit that has a 6- 50 outlet. Edited using my iPhone.

Now I’m doing an edit from an iPad. I have a 60 amp feed to breaker box , 40 a feed outlet and a 15 4 split receptacle , 15 amp 120 feed lighting. I would just never suggest you undersize your wiring. Make your wiring suitable to the breaker prior. Regardless if it is a welder or not.

 

[sberry]

I know it's silly but have circuits for each of the tools, only have one in the whole place that is shared. It is a welder outlet on the hoist for compact mig, they use the same ocpd.
One would think that as big a potential problem this may be that the guys that write the code that allow this must be real dipsticks.

 

[sberry]

I had a chance to sit in on a convention with fire investigators. I asked, how many fires had they seen from welder and compressor circuits. Not 1 as I recall. All kinds of them from the use, torches and a lot with grinders. I set a car on fire with a plasma, It was put out of course but it happened really fast, am accutely aware of fuel but blew fire in a body panel working on a door jamb.
But have welded with buzzers hooked with 10 cable and ran them till they near cinders, barely warms the cable.

 

[BukitCase]

Cloves, a couple of your still un-answered questions -

"Buzzer" is slang for "buzz box", which is slang for a basic transformer type stick welder.

Also, your idea of getting a full coil of wire and temporarily running the welder with it (with MOST of the wire still coiled up) can possibly cause problems -
1 - this is how SOME induction heaters are made, so that coil might heat up enough to melt the insulation and short out
2 - adding induction to a circuit CHANGES the way that circuit works - it can act as an "AC resistor" and limit current, as one possibility.

So far, the best advice you've gotten is to build (or buy, costs more but doesn't require you to know how NOT to make electrical connections) an extension cord - as mentioned, if you're gonna do MUCH of this you'll find that extension cord handy OFTEN... Steve

 

[cloves]

Cloves, a couple of your still un-answered questions -

"Buzzer" is slang for "buzz box", which is slang for a basic transformer type stick welder.

Also, your idea of getting a full coil of wire and temporarily running the welder with it (with MOST of the wire still coiled up) can possibly cause problems -
1 - this is how SOME induction heaters are made, so that coil might heat up enough to melt the insulation and short out
2 - adding induction to a circuit CHANGES the way that circuit works - it can act as an "AC resistor" and limit current, as one possibility.

So far, the best advice you've gotten is to build (or buy, costs more but doesn't require you to know how NOT to make electrical connections) an extension cord - as mentioned, if you're gonna do MUCH of this you'll find that extension cord handy OFTEN... Steve

Thanks bukitcase for explaining that coil issue, that makes sense.

Thanks to everyone for the help I just finished running the cable. I ended up using a 10-2 uf cable I had and temporarily out a box in the garage.

 

[BukitCase]

You're welcome; just don't let anyone who THINKS they're "in charge" see that :=) - Also, if that's an OUTSIDE wall (un-protected from rain) I'd get some flashing or something and tack it over the box. You DID leave a rain loop in the UF wire which is good... Steve

 

[sberry]

Wire you had is good,,,,,, and the 10 makes a great supply for that machine.

 

[cloves]

Actually that's the inside of the garage, the guy who used to live here attached it very Chop Chop Style he just left the exterior siding and then build a garage next to it attached lol.

Now the fun part I got to do a couple of practice strips of welding cut some rust off and weld some new metal the first time ever LOL.

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