Tig gas

[dr_obson]

Hi fellas

not sure if this is in the right section but anyway

I have a multi process inverter welder and I own my own gas bottle.
its an argon mix for mig welding and it works just fine.

I want to start learning to use the TIG function of the machine as Ive not tigged before.

would I be able to use the mixed gas for welding mild steel or do I need straight argon? the mix is Argon - Ar 93%
Carbon Dioxide - CO2 5%
Oxygen – O2 2%

Dane

 

[Mike F]

For tig it's straight argon. Unless you are welding some thick aluminum and then Ar/He mix or just helium.

 

[FriendOfYours]

Trade it out for argon

And don't let anyone tell you that you can't MIG with straight argon! I have been doing it for years and it works just fine

 

[fatboy99]

Here is a good video about welding gases

 

[1/2 Cup]

Trade it out for argon

And don't let anyone tell you that you can't MIG with straight argon! I have been doing it for years and it works just fine

I didn't know any difference, as above straight Argon, that's all I use..works well.

 

[dragginbalz]

I am curious, those above that say they can MIG steel with straight argon, what thickness of material do you weld?

Anything over 1/4"? Get good penetration? Any pictures of the welds?

Thanks in advance for the info!

 

[dr_clyde]

This is one of those threads where mis-information is spread by the not knowledgable.

You need pure 100% argon to TIG weld steel.
You can blend up to 50% helium to TIG thicker aluminum, but you don't have to if your machine has enough balls.

You need some co2 to MIG steel on short circuit transfer. Some active gas is needed in order to get proper penetration. 75/25 is the most common. Don't try to get properly penetrated welds with pure argon. It may make a weld, but it won't be as good as with 75/25.

With spray transfer, you need less co2, usually using a 90% argon 10% co2 blend.

For stainless MIG, you need a blend of argon, oxygen and helium.

 

[zkling]

What does your gas supplier market that gas mix as use for? With that high of an argon content you could probably spray if you got the voltage high enough. IIRC the Co2 content is right on the limit for stainless work.

Yes, get a bottle of straight argon for tig work, you can also use it for miging aluminum.

 

[FriendOfYours]

This is one of those threads where mis-information is spread by the not knowledgable.

You need pure 100% argon to TIG weld steel.
You can blend up to 50% helium to TIG thicker aluminum, but you don't have to if your machine has enough balls.

You need some co2 to MIG steel on short circuit transfer. Some active gas is needed in order to get proper penetration. 75/25 is the most common. Don't try to get properly penetrated welds with pure argon. It may make a weld, but it won't be as good as with 75/25.

With spray transfer, you need less co2, usually using a 90% argon 10% co2 blend.

For stainless MIG, you need a blend of argon, oxygen and helium.

Yeah, what the hell do I know? I only was a lead on the assembly line at Genie welding the secondaries on the S-60 and Z-45 and built the backbone and fuel cell for (20) RB-M's for the Coast Guard. All of which require X-ray and 3G/4G certification with GMAW and GTAW

This is straight Argon out of my 211i with .023, a picture taken just for you. I could burn right through this 3/8" if I wanted to. It is the same as you said with Aluminum and Helium, if your machine has the balls...

 

[dr_obson]

I only have a small welder, 200a inverter type multi process thing goes good for auto stuff.
I mainly use it for panel and chassis work so under 10mm or 1/4".

I just didn't want to have to buy a second gas bottle, at $300 a pop I don't really want to own 2 if I can help it.

Sounds like ill swap mine for straight argon and that will work for mig and I can teach myself to tig with it also.

Thanks guys

zkling: the mix is marketed as mig gas

 

[Tinner]

Yeah, what the hell do I know? I only was a lead on the assembly line at Genie welding the secondaries on the S-60 and Z-45 and built the backbone and fuel cell for (20) RB-M's for the Coast Guard. All of which require X-ray and 3G/4G certification with GMAW and GTAW

This is straight Argon, a picture taken just for you. I could burn right through this 3/8" if I wanted to. It is the same as you said with Aluminum and Helium, if your machine has the balls...

So did you run your GMAW certification tests with straight argon? I bet not. I bet myself and dr clyde know why not and you don't.

 

[dragginbalz]

I found this statement in a Linde brochure..

2. Why can I not use pure argon for MAG welding steels?
While it is possible to MAG weld steels with pure argon, the arc produced
is very unstable and erratic, and the resultant weld will have a lot of
spatter and an unsatisfactory penetration profile.
When MAG welding steels, a small amount of oxidising gas (either
carbon
dioxide or oxygen) is needed to help stabilise the arc and
produce sound welds. It is therefore best to use an argon/CO2 mixture.

 

[FriendOfYours]

So did you run your GMAW certification tests with straight argon? I bet not. I bet myself and dr clyde know why not and you don't.

Actually, yes. But, that was because it's aluminum pushpull lol

The penetration doesn't lie. I'd be happy to cut a cross section and prove it. Not to mention the more than a hundred cars running around with my motor mount kits, many over 10 years old and not a single failure

If you guys wanna argue, go hook up the argon tank you have, burn some wire and post back

EVERY single person I have gotten into this with always ends up saying, "Oh, well I never have."

Straight argon on my 350p running .045

 

[zkling]

I only have a small welder, 200a inverter type multi process thing goes good for auto stuff.
I mainly use it for panel and chassis work so under 10mm or 1/4".

I just didn't want to have to buy a second gas bottle, at $300 a pop I don't really want to own 2 if I can help it.

Sounds like ill swap mine for straight argon and that will work for mig and I can teach myself to tig with it also.

Thanks guys

zkling: the mix is marketed as mig gas

Yes, but there are different types of mig gas marketed for different mig processes. Short arc, spray transfer, stainless, aluminum, etc. Sounds like they are possibly selling that as a all purpose mig gas?

Actually, yes. But, that was because it's aluminum pushpull lol

The penetration doesn't lie. I'd be happy to cut a cross section and prove it. Not to mention the more than a hundred cars running around with my motor mount kits, many over 10 years old and not a single failure

If you guys wanna argue, go hook up the argon tank you have, burn some wire and post back

EVERY single person I have gotten into this with always ends up saying, "Oh, well I never have."

I'm intrigued, what are your running parameters? Particularly voltage? I've tried it in the past with a Millermatic 210 running 0.030" wire and didn't have much luck.

 

[dr_obson]

Yes that is correct "all purpose"

 

[FriendOfYours]

On the 350p 31v 410 to maybe 440 on wire speed. Much cheaper for spray transfer than a mix, but welds just for fine on short circuit. Never have any problems with splatter and significantly less than straight Co2, but also less penetration than it or c25. Again, just up the amps.

 

[dragginbalz]

On the 350p 31v 410 to maybe 440 on wire speed. Much cheaper for spray transfer than a mix, but welds just for fine on short circuit. Never have any problems with splatter and significantly less than straight Co2, but also less penetration than it or c25. Again, just up the amps.

Honestly, it is really "much cheaper" than say a 90/10? I can't see how your welding supplier would charge that much less for straight argon than a popular mix that they probably fill a rack of every day. If so I would talk to them and see if they can lower your price on the mix. With the argon shortage coming, who knows, maybe the CO2 blends will be cheaper in the near future..

It just boggles my mind why someone of your welding skill would use something "just because it works" as opposed to the correct item for the job. I don't think there is anything I have seen that recommends 100% argon for mild steel mig with regular (70s or 80s) solid wire. Are you claiming it is just a marketing gimmick, since 100% argon works "just fine"?

Are you telling us that you get BETTER results with straight argon than the appropriate mixes? OR just acceptable results?

I just can't get my mind around this one. You purchase a machine like a 350P, but don't want to spend an extra $300 for the correct cylinder? Thanks in advance for the replies.

 

[racingtadpole]

The shield gas the OP is using is commonly referred to here as Argoshield Light. Its marketed as a general purpose shield gas for light gauge steel work, and is usually the go to gas if you walk into BOC, SupaGas, or Air Liquide and tell them you want to weld car panels. Its also about 30% cheaper than an equivalent size purchase of Argon (at least that's my experience using both BOC and SupaGas for supply) in the last 18mths.

 

[kf4zht]

I run pure argon on my Miller 175. Why? That way I can have all the same gas and not worry which bottle ends up with what welder. I usually don't weld over 1/8, but when I have hit heavier stuff (1/4) it gets full penetration and nothing has broken so far.

If I really need penetration I hook the stick leads up to the 330abp and crank the dial till the breaker trips.

 

[dr_clyde]

Honestly, it is really "much cheaper" than say a 90/10? I can't see how your welding supplier would charge that much less for straight argon than a popular mix that they probably fill a rack of every day. If so I would talk to them and see if they can lower your price on the mix. With the argon shortage coming, who knows, maybe the CO2 blends will be cheaper in the near future..

It just boggles my mind why someone of your welding skill would use something "just because it works" as opposed to the correct item for the job. I don't think there is anything I have seen that recommends 100% argon for mild steel mig with regular (70s or 80s) solid wire. Are you claiming it is just a marketing gimmick, since 100% argon works "just fine"?

Are you telling us that you get BETTER results with straight argon than the appropriate mixes? OR just acceptable results?

I just can't get my mind around this one. You purchase a machine like a 350P, but don't want to spend an extra $300 for the correct cylinder? Thanks in advance for the replies.

Quoted for truth.

 

[pepi]

This is one of those threads where mis-information is spread by the not knowledgable.

You need pure 100% argon to TIG weld steel.
You can blend up to 50% helium to TIG thicker aluminum, but you don't have to if your machine has enough balls.

You need some co2 to MIG steel on short circuit transfer. Some active gas is needed in order to get proper penetration. 75/25 is the most common. Don't try to get properly penetrated welds with pure argon. It may make a weld, but it won't be as good as with 75/25.

With spray transfer, you need less co2, usually using a 90% argon 10% co2 blend.

For stainless MIG, you need a blend of argon, oxygen and helium.

Your are right, I am always amused by the "it works for me crowd ".

 

[FriendOfYours]

No no, it isn't better. Just cheaper and I can have three tanks that I can use on any of the machines. I'm over an hour away from the lws and that makes it much easier. I don't gotta pay two hours worth of wages and gas having one of our guys to go get a tank changed out

I said it works as well IF you've got the amps. Otherwise, penetration can be a problem on thicker material

 

[MoonRise]

For GTAW, use plain argon as the shielding gas.

For GMAW on anything other than steels (like aluminum, copper, titanium, etc), use plain argon as the shielding gas.

For GMAW on steels, plain argon is NOT an accepted/acceptable shielding gas for any transfer mode (short-circuit, globular, or spray mode transfer). Lincoln says so, ESAB says so, AWS says so, etc, etc.

And you can't just go and try to "just up the amps". Even in spray mode transfer, you run into "current saturation", where the wire electrode just can not transfer any more current. Yeah, the WFS does go up but the amperage doesn't change. With 0.030 steel wire, current saturation occurs at ~200 amps (WFS from ~600 to ~700 ipm and you still get the same current of ~200 amps). With 0.035 steel wire, current saturation occurs at ~280 amps and ~720 ipm WFS.

The biggest Lincoln solid wires (1/16" dia) top out at ~430 amps. Some of the Lincoln metalcored wires in 1/16" dia top out around 480 amps. Some of the 'big' FCAW (-S or -G) wires in .120" dia can max out at 600-800 amps!!! A smidge over 1000 amps in a twin-arc config (you're not doing that with a handheld gun!).

Because of the relatively low ionization potential of pure argon, there is a reduced amount of overall power/heat put into the arc/weld. With GTAW, generally not a problem, as you are letting a puddle form and -then- adding filler. Slow travel speed and more overall 'heat' put into the weld puddle. With GMAW on steel using pure argon as the shielding gas, you would typically end up with the characteristic 'finger' penetration profile of a deep very narrow 'finger' of fusion into the workpiece(s). As well as a more unstable arc as you try to crank up the voltage and WFS/amperage.

GMAW on steel with plain argon? Nope. You won't find ANY acceptable/accepted WPS for GMAW on steel with 100% argon gas.

 

[FriendOfYours]

For GTAW, use plain argon as the shielding gas.

For GMAW on anything other than steels (like aluminum, copper, titanium, etc), use plain argon as the shielding gas.

For GMAW on steels, plain argon is NOT an accepted/acceptable shielding gas for any transfer mode (short-circuit, globular, or spray mode transfer). Lincoln says so, ESAB says so, AWS says so, etc, etc.

And you can't just go and try to "just up the amps". Even in spray mode transfer, you run into "current saturation", where the wire electrode just can not transfer any more current. Yeah, the WFS does go up but the amperage doesn't change. With 0.030 steel wire, current saturation occurs at ~200 amps (WFS from ~600 to ~700 ipm and you still get the same current of ~200 amps). With 0.035 steel wire, current saturation occurs at ~280 amps and ~720 ipm WFS.

The biggest Lincoln solid wires (1/16" dia) top out at ~430 amps. Some of the Lincoln metalcored wires in 1/16" dia top out around 480 amps. Some of the 'big' FCAW (-S or -G) wires in .120" dia can max out at 600-800 amps!!! A smidge over 1000 amps in a twin-arc config (you're not doing that with a handheld gun!).

Because of the relatively low ionization potential of pure argon, there is a reduced amount of overall power/heat put into the arc/weld. With GTAW, generally not a problem, as you are letting a puddle form and -then- adding filler. Slow travel speed and more overall 'heat' put into the weld puddle. With GMAW on steel using pure argon as the shielding gas, you would typically end up with the characteristic 'finger' penetration profile of a deep very narrow 'finger' of fusion into the workpiece(s). As well as a more unstable arc as you try to crank up the voltage and WFS/amperage.

GMAW on steel with plain argon? Nope. You won't find ANY acceptable/accepted WPS for GMAW on steel with 100% argon gas.

Are you joking me? Did you read the amperages and wire speeds you wrote?

We are talking about 300 amps with .045 and low 400 ipm, nowhere near current saturation but plenty to cross into spray transfer. And why would you be pushing 200amps with .030 and 700! IPM? That's retarded

Like I said, the pictures and work don't lie. I've been doing it every day for a decade. Works just fine

 

[MoonRise]

Yup, those amps and WFS are -insane-.

GMAW with plain argon on aluminum? Yup.

GMAW with plain argon on steel? Nope.

Back to the OP.

Use plain argon for GTAW aka TIG.

Use the appropriate gas for GMAW.

 

[Tinner]

I learned long ago you can't tell a production welder who brags about a couple of certifications anything. Hotter is always better, appearance is the only test. There is no accepted procedure for mild steel GMAW with straight argon. X-ray that sometime. Hell, bend test it.

 

[FriendOfYours]

I'll do a bend test then, like I have before. I'm not bragging about certs, I have the years of experience and proof to back it up

 

[Tinner]

Yeah, if you've got a fixture and a press to do a proper bend test that would be great. I'm talking about a test using accepted procedures, not something you made up. How about a single bevel **** weld on 3/8" plate?

 

[FriendOfYours]

You know what, I don't need the ******* attitude. Did you see the work I produce with argon? Feel free to look through the rest of that photobucket, my facebook or my website. Does it look like I'm some talentless hack? Hell no. Show me the beads you run with C25. Just because I use straight argon doesn't mean I make **** parts

My last seconday:






Results don't lie. Let's see yours.

No pinholes, no porosity, no excessive heat input and proper penetration = Golden. No ******* way around it. And what's with the explanation on how you want the bend test? Do you not know how to just say a 1G test? Or do you want a bevel? Or single-v? One or the other. Hell I'll do it 4G for you

 

[laser3kw]

I for one am intrigued by your results. What you are showing would not be question as far as gas selection goes if you did not tell them. Would you / could you show a penetration test? nothing elaborate like a dye test. Maybe a "T" sectioned, polished and acid etched? thanks

 

[zkling]

When I get a chance I'm going to try this again with the voltage cranked. Heck I'll even thow the He tank on for the learning experience. I figured you must have had the voltage pretty high. My results "worked" just had a very shallow, rounded penetration when tried it in the past.

The penetration doesn't lie. I'd be happy to cut a cross section and prove it. Not to mention the more than a hundred cars running around with my motor mount kits, many over 10 years old and not a single failure

Since you offered, I'd be highly interested to see the cross section of one of those welds. could you run a T joint on 1/4" mild steel plate, cut, slight polish, etch and photograph it please? I'm intrigued with this, not trying to be a smart ***. I'm all for learning something outside of the box for welding.

I for one am intrigued by your results. What you are showing would not be question as far as gas selection goes if you did not tell them. Would you / could you show a penetration test? nothing elaborate like a dye test. Maybe a "T" sectioned, polished and acid etched? thanks

 

[R.Anderson]

FriendOfYours,
The welds in pictures 2 and 3 look too perfect to be done by hand. What ya have a robot, weld positioner, or some kind of torch jig for these?

Any problems or worries with solidification cracks on welds with the lines running down the center of em?

-------------------------------------

I run 100% CO2 for MIG on steel and 100% Ar on my TIG, Its the cheapest and best route on shielding gas for me. Cost me $30 per 20lb bottle of CO2 and $58 per 80cf of Argon. No way I'll run 100% Ar for MIG at those prices

 

[FriendOfYours]

When I get a chance I'm going to try this again with the voltage cranked. Heck I'll even thow the He tank on for the learning experience. I figured you must have had the voltage pretty high. My results "worked" just had a very shallow, rounded penetration when tried it in the past.



Since you offered, I'd be highly interested to see the cross section of one of those welds. could you run a T joint on 1/4" mild steel plate, cut, slight polish, etch and photograph it please? I'm intrigued with this, not trying to be a smart ***. I'm all for learning something outside of the box for welding.

Sure! No problem. I'll get it done tmrw and post it up

FriendOfYours,
The welds in pictures 2 and 3 look too perfect to be done by hand. What ya have a robot, weld positioner, or some kind of torch jig for these?

Any problems or worries with solidification cracks on welds with the lines running down the center of em?

-------------------------------------

I run 100% CO2 for MIG on steel and 100% Ar on my TIG, Its the cheapest and best route on shielding gas for me. Cost me $30 per 20lb bottle of CO2 and $58 per 80cf of Argon. No way I'll run 100% Ar for MIG at those prices

Nope! That's what 6 years of doing the same thing, 20 times a day, 45-55 hours a week will get you. Remember this is production welding, I've been on the same line the entire time I've been at Genie. I've built roughly 15,000 of those exact parts. But, big wire and spray goes a looooong way towards a good profile. There are guys that come in who have welded "before" and can make a bead like that with a steady hand. They will start blowing holes in **** and porosity up the ahole, but going in a straight line is cake

 

[kkroger]

Here is an example of Mix with TIG and it even touches on the Argon with MIG
With Straight Argon on a High volt MIG you are pushing into Spray Transfer as opposed to Short Circuit but Argon will work fine, what you WILL find though is that the Argon doesn't really have the same volume of gas in the bottle.
You won't get the same use out of a bottle and it will cost more.

Matheson TriGas has a "SunFlash" mix that is higher % Argon that is a bit more expensive but it does a REALLY good job on Steel...
I liked it, C925... is what they call it.
I got a bottle of it by accident when I bought my 80, The guy gave me the wrong gas by accident. When I got a replacement He gave it to me again but charged me the extra (about $20) for it. I traded it back for C25, no need for the extra money IMHO, I DO need to get an 80 for the TIG I currently have a 40 on that of course I intend to get a new TIG machine in the next year. Will have to see how that goes.
Maybe if I can get a good cameraman I will do a quick outside corner with Mix then with Argon. I inspect a lot of welds at work, that is pretty much my job.
Almost no one else in the department knows welding like I do. Some of the **** I see daily is laughable and done by "professional" weldors....

 

[laser3kw]

Since you offered, I'd be highly interested to see the cross section of one of those welds. could you run a T joint on 1/4" mild steel plate, cut, slight polish, etch and photograph it please? I'm intrigued with this, not trying to be a smart ***. I'm all for learning something outside of the box for welding.

Sure! No problem. I'll get it done tmrw and post it up

did I miss it?

 

[zkling]

Sure! No problem. I'll get it done tmrw and post it up

Did you ever get a chance to run those samples? I'm highly interested in this?

 

[zkling]

Bump, so how are those cross sections coming?

 

[zkling]

Bump again, get a chance to take those cross section pics?

 

[dr_clyde]

I suspect he did not.

 

[ncfh]

I suspect he is out in his shop satisfactorily stacking iron for his customers/employeer, as depicted.

lol. Whatever did we do before WPS and their attendant cubicle dwellers?

If you're soooo interested, why don't you go find out for yourself? You seem to have the time on your hands.

"And on the eighth day he created... Dilbert."

"And among the welders there arose a great cry, for the riddle of steel was but a jelly stained paper slide rule in his shirt pocket."