Tig welder causing Faults in alarm system

[Shadowdog500]

Tig welder causing Faults in alarm system [PROBLEM SOLVED]

I had an alarm system installed in my shop last year and tonight while TIG welding cracks in the seat frame from my Jeep I managed to cause a fault in every channel in my Honeywell alarm system TWICE! Everything in the system is wired. I don't like wireless anything.

BTW my "TIG" welding setup is a Lincoln AC/DC tombstone welder with an old Crafstman High Frequency Arc Stabilizer on it. I had the Arc welder set for 40A DC- and the high frequency arc stabilizer was turned on so I could get the arc started easier.

I don't really TIG weld that often and when I do It is usually short bursts at 10 - 15 seconds at a time. This time I was welding a longer crack at 40A and the alarm system started beeping twice. I had to manually clear the faults both times.


Does anyone else have this problem, and if so what was your solution. Shielded wires to everything?

Im going to call my alarm guy tomorrow.


Thanks.

Chris

Photo 1 = The control Pannel

Photo 2 = My setup. The Craftsman High Frequency arc stabilizer lets me TIG weld aluminum and steel (But there is no pedal which *****.)

Photo 3 = What I was welding the metal is 0.071" thick.

 

[LXCam]

Check all your grounds from the panel down stream and make sure everything is good as well as bonded properly. Poor grounds at the panel and indirect grounds will cause problems like this. One simple test if you have a good multimeter is the check continuity between the ground and neutral at the receptacle that the alarm plugs into too as well as voltage between it. If you have any measurable resistance or more that one volt you need to find out why. Also check the ground from the welder recep back to the panel with the ohm meter. You will probably need a piece of wire terminated to the ground buss in the panel to do this.

 

[Shadowdog500]

Check all your grounds from the panel down stream and make sure everything is good as well as bonded properly. Poor grounds at the panel and indirect grounds will cause problems like this. One simple test if you have a good multimeter is the check continuity between the ground and neutral at the receptacle that the alarm plugs into too as well as voltage between it. If you have any measurable resistance or more that one volt you need to find out why. Also check the ground from the welder recep back to the panel with the ohm meter. You will probably need a piece of wire terminated to the ground buss in the panel to do this.

Thanks! I will look into this.

I will still call the guy who installed it since it is technically his problem.

I just added photos.

Thanks, Chris

 

[Z2V]

I'm not seeing any photos

 

[Shadowdog500]

I'm not seeing any photos

Darn, I just viewed this thread while logged out and the photoa dont appear.

They are on my album, I need to figure out how to get my album photos to show up in my post.

Ill work on that and hopefully they will appear.

Thanks for the heads up,

Chris

 

[Shadowdog500]

I'm not seeing any photos

Do you see them in the first post now???

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Z2V]

Yes Sir

 

[Shadowdog500]

Yes Sir

THANKS!!!!!!

 

[pcmeiners]

Ran a school building which was 400 ft from a rail system. When the building was first opened, the alarm triggerred in the early morning ( approx 2 am). Turned out the electric freight engine had a higher power use then normal transit trains, the EMF from arching would set off the alarm. I ordered a few dozen MOVs ( believe they were rated 20v dc) , installed them across each alarm run circuit. Totally stopped the false triggering

 

[redmondjp]

Ran a school building which was 400 ft from a rail system. When the building was first opened, the alarm triggerred in the early morning ( approx 2 am). Turned out the electric freight engine had a higher power use then normal transit trains, the EMF from arching would set off the alarm. I ordered a few dozen MOVs ( believe they were rated 20v dc) , installed them across each alarm run circuit. Totally stopped the false triggering

Yes, that's what is most likely causing the interference. It's the broadband RF (radio frequency) noise generated by the arc that is causing the problem.

 

[LXCam]

Yes, that's what is most likely causing the interference. It's the broadband RF (radio frequency) noise generated by the arc that is causing the problem.

And that why confirming the ground and bonding is 100% above board.

 

[redmondjp]

And that why confirming the ground and bonding is 100% above board.

That's a good idea, but it has nothing to do with the radio frequency generated and radiated through the air by the electrical arc itself.

 

[pi_guy]

I used to blow up the diodes in my electric stove when I tig welded. One solution was to turn off circuit breaker to stove.
Try putting alarm system on UPS

 

[rsanter]

I used to blow up the diodes in my electric stove when I tig welded. One solution was to turn off circuit breaker to stove.
Try putting alarm system on UPS

Welding and specifically TIG welding causes a lot of electrical noise that can interfere with or damage electronics.
Run the electronics on a UPS that has surge protection is what you need to do.
I killed several power supplies in my computer till I did this.

Bob

 

[LXCam]

That's a good idea, but it has nothing to do with the radio frequency generated and radiated through the air by the electrical arc itself.

The assumption being that RF is the cause of his anomaly, which is very well could be. But it could also be related to transients and or harmonics. Starting with the basics which really don't cost anything if he can self perform the tasks narrows down the causes. And without a small fortune in trouble shooting equipment and the knowledge of how to use and interpret the data starting with the basics goes a long ways.

Obviously you have some back round, you know as well as anyone improper grounding and bonding will cause all kinds of grief.

 

[Bobf]

When I tig weld out in the garage/shop (220V Idealarc)I usually trip several of the GFI's on the 120V wall outlests>

 

[sstec]

When I weld with my Miller Dynasty 200DX, it will fault the refrigerator in the house.
Mig never does, I assume it's the high frequency start that does it.
sstec

 

[Shadowdog500]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I called the alarm guy yesterday and he plans to come out one night this week.

I don't plan on opening anything up on the alarm system because I don't want to mess with anything with the alarm system until the alarm guy looks at it.

I did track down the problem this afternoon and it is definitely the High frequency arc stabilizer.

I tested all of the grounds and they were around 0.2 OHM.

I set up an AM radio to listen for noise and the High Frequency Arc Stabilizer put out a ton of it.

When I disconnected the arc stabilizer from the welder and turned only the Arc stabilizer on the radio turned to static and the alarm system went crazy after about a minute. I did this again after taking it apart and checking the ground, cleaning all the connections, and re gapping the points. And it didn’t get any better. I found a manual for this unit and it indicated that everything within 50 feet must be shielded. So that is definitely the problem.

I decided to check the ARC welder to make sure that it was not a problem, and I couldn’t get any RF interference on the radio or any problems with the alarm for the several things I tried. I burned a rod of 6011 at 100A AC with no RF noise, Did a scratch TIG weld in DC- no problem. And I know the alarm don’t have any problems with 7018 in DC+ because that I what I normally use.

I learned that I really prefer scratch start TIG welding for Steel over the high frequency box because striking an arc isn’t a problem since I’m used to Arc welding, and I also like that I can snap off of the weld and bring the torch right back in to keep the argon gas shield on while the weld cools. You can’t do that with the HF turned on because the arc restarts as soon as you get it close.

I’m using this a justification to look for a real TIG welder. I’m hoping that the new inverter square wave welders aren’t as noisy as this old box of mine, and I’ve wanted a pedal on my TIG for years. I’m mostly a hobbyist on this stuff so I’m looking at the Lincoln square wave TIG 200, but I see that it has the same RF warnings as my old welder, and also Indicated that the steel shell on my pole barn should be grounded as well. I’m going to ensure that the building shell is grounded.

I also want to test one of the new tig welders with an AM radio playing so I can listen for RF.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[39chevyinar]

i would highly recommend looking at the 2016 AHP alphatig 200x. I have put my miller on the shelf and using the AHP with happiness.

 

[LXCam]

Excellent follow up OP. Glad you found the cause.

 

[Shadowdog500]

Excellent follow up OP. Glad you found the cause.

Thanks! Here is a video of the RF that I made to send to the alarm guy. I also showed inside the unit because it looked pretty neat and had more sparks than Frankenstein's lab during a thunderstorm.

Thanks, Chris

 

[Shadowdog500]

i would highly recommend looking at the 2016 AHP alphatig 200x. I have put my miller on the shelf and using the AHP with happiness.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will consider it! I've heard nothing but good things about that unit. Is there any way you can put an AM radio near your welder to listen for RF noise while welding with yours? Here is a video of mine, Lots of RF!!!!

Chris

 

[jkeyser14]

My old Miller does the same thing. Says all wiring within 50' needs to be shielded. All elecrtic was run in EMT conduit in my last house and that still didn't stop the RF from messing with the TV or computer.

 

[ndm]

i would highly recommend looking at the 2016 AHP alphatig 200x. I have put my miller on the shelf and using the AHP with happiness.

I have been researching this welder for a very long time and I honestly cannot convince myself NOT to get this welder.

There are a ton of reviews out there and each year it is released, the welder seems to add more and more value. I already have a miller mig welder and a hypertherm plasma cutter and I believe that in the next month or so I will be adding the AHP Alphatig 200x to my collection. I simply cannot deny that it is a worth while tig to have.

As far as I am concerned, if it breaks in 4 years, I could just buy another. At the price point that this welder is, I would have to rebuy it 3 to 4 times before I even get to the same price as the big three offerings with similar capabilities. Chinese built or not, I simply cannot ignore the value of this thing.

I think I will wait for the 2017 model and just do it.

 

[txvwnut]

I've had my Alpha tig for two years and have no complaints. Its done everything I've wanted it to do, thin sheet metal all the way to an aluminum cylinder head. The only thing I didn't like about it was the pedal but a couple hundred bucks to SSC Controls and that complaint was taken care of.

 

[ndm]

I think that the thing that pushed me over the edge to get it is the change to be able to use it at 110 or 220. I can let my dad and uncle borrow it now since they do not have 220 service. I cannot wait to re-weld my 409 stainless exhaust. When I flux core welded them the first time, the welds were/are ugly as hell. I have a feeling that I will want to tig everything once I get it. Mig is cool but I really like the precision and low spatter of the tig process.

 

[pi_guy]

Thanks! Here is a video of the RF that I made to send to the alarm guy. I also showed inside the unit because it looked pretty neat and had more sparks than Frankenstein's lab during a thunderstorm.

Thanks, Chris

Try gloves

 

[Shadowdog500]

Try gloves

Why??? The welder wasn't even connected. That was not a welding arc, it was the starter arc. It don't even require a mask.

The starter arc is high voltage/ low current and you can literally run the arc to your finger if you are so inclined.

Watch this video of a guy running the starter arc across his hand to demonstrate this .

He disconnected the ground on his welder because the welder was hot, mine didn't even have a welder hooked up so there was no issue.

Chris

 

[Shadowdog500]

Re: Tig welder causing Faults in alarm system [PROBLEM SOLVED!!!]

The problem was solved and it was an easy fix. All that was needed was a $5 Ferrite Cord Noise Suppressor o the line into the control panel.
Here is a video.

Chris

 

[brownbagg]

why not just turn the alarm off while welding

 

[Shadowdog500]

why not just turn the alarm off while welding

The alarm is turned off while I'm welding. The RF was still screwing things up even though the system was turned off. Luckily a $5 Ferrite Cord Noise Suppressor fixed the problem.

Chris