To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Tig welder for a total newbie.

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
Where the subframe mounts to the unibody of my E46 M3, my car has developed the cracks that this generation of BMWs are notorious for. Rather than paying someone $1500 to weld up the cracks and weld in the reinforcement plates, I would rather buy a welder and have my dads friend that has been welding for a living his entire life do the welding. I would rather just borrow a tig as money is tight right now because I had to buy a new differential for (discovered the cracks when I did an inspection after pulling the differential). The problem is no one I know with a tig has anything remotely portable.

With all that being said, I have done some research but don't know enough about welding at all to know the difference between the models and what I need and will probably want when I learn what I am doing. What I plan on using it for after this job is mainly automotive type stuff. I have been scouring craigslist for a month and have not found anything small enough for a garage in 230v single phase power at a price less than a couple of hundred dollars less than I can get a new machine for. I have been looking at the diversion series 165 and 180 but keep seeing people recommending spending the extra money for a synchrowave 200. I open to all brands and would prefer to spend as little money as possible but I tend to be a buy once cry once kind of person. I will say that even after I learn to weld, I suspect I will only use the thing once or twice a year if that but I plan on building a track miata and I will likely come up with more uses for it in the future. I hate to ask these questions when a search and research often has the answers, the problem is I know so little about welding that I don't understand what makes one machine better than the other or even what I need to get the job done.

Also, if there is something for $400 or $500 dollars that would get the job done, I would probably rather just buy that than spend the money on something expensive only to want something better in the future. The steel is a 1/16'' and the reinforcement plates are about the same thickness. Here is a link to some a thread with some pictures of exactly what will be done. Link!

Thanks,

Cole
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

mikeatrpi

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2006
Messages
383
Location
Home
Is there any particular reason that a MIG welder wouldn't work for you? TIG equipment is expensive, as you noticed, and difficult to learn.
 

mad57

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,698
i would think that a good mig or buzz box stick welder will work fine for you, and alot more affordable. i see tyhem on cl for around $200. if you dont use it much after wards just sell it for what you payed. or im sure theres a gj guy close to you with a welder that would be happy to help out where you from?
 

braxx

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
136
Location
Dearborn Heights, Michigan
If your "dads friend that has been welding for a living his entire life do the welding" is going to do the job, he should have the equipment and I'm sure he would be more comfortable using his own equipment.
I wouldn't buy a TIG welder for your first welder. A MIG is much easier to learn and in my opinion a little more versitale.
 
OP
B

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
I have a Mig / stick (never used it), everyone I have talked to said you can't mig it, I don't know why but I do know that no one who does these repairs migs them. A guy I work with used to be a Welder said stick is fine if you can find someone who can do it on metal that thin, I am waiting on the welder friend to get back into town on monday but when we asked him about welding it before I started researching other options, he said to tig it, I think he can stick it but is worried about burning through the metal, basically a tig is the right tool for the job. The guy who is going to weld it for me does have access to the equipment but the car is at my house with the entire rear end including the fuel tank is out of the car, he is not a mobile welder and like so many people who do things for a living, his occupation is not his hobby so he only has a portably mig/stick. A friend of mine was going to loan me his tig which is why I stripped and prepped the car but he won't return my calls now which I take to mean he won't loan it to me anymore. I am in Houston and would pay someone to borrow their portably tig if someone wants to help me out. Hell, if someone on here has portable rig and knows what they are doing, I will pay the going rate to just do the welding job for me.
 

braxx

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
136
Location
Dearborn Heights, Michigan
FYI - 99% of the time you can't get a MIG/Stick unit. TIG/Stick yes, MIG/STICK not very common.
The welds in the link you provided look like MIG spot welds to me.
If any one can even come close to doing it with a stick welder, a MIG welder could do it better. MIG can do sheet metal but I've yet to find someone use arc (STICK) and find it easier/better than MIG on body panels.
As you've said , TIG will work but I doubt it will do any better than a MIG.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
17,176
Location
Long Beach CA, the sewer by the sea.
MIG and stick don't go together. TIG and stick use pretty much the same type of machine AFA power source goes. TIG is hard to do upside down and in tight places.

On another note, I do bodywork and my BIL has been doing it since his teens for a living. 40 years now. They use MIG on all kinds of high end cars which is what they specialize in.

You might want to check your facts and then put that MIG to use. The type of wire you use and the type of gas may be selective for your Bimmer, but I don't think so.
 
OP
B

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
FYI - 99% of the time you can't get a MIG/Stick unit. TIG/Stick yes, MIG/STICK not very common.
The welds in the link you provided look like MIG spot welds to me.
If any one can even come close to doing it with a stick welder, a MIG welder could do it better. MIG can do sheet metal but I've yet to find someone use arc (STICK) and find it easier/better than MIG on body panels.
As you've said , TIG will work but I doubt it will do any better than a MIG.

I simply don't know enough, I will have to look at the welder and see what it is. My dad said it is a mig/stick but he hasn't ever used it either, a friend loaned it to us on a permanent bases. The spot welds are what they call rosette welds and are usually done with a tig but I don't know if that guy used a tig on them. I don't know why people don't use a mig and tell you not to but they always seem to act like it is a strength thing in this application and this is from three different people I know who weld, two who do or did it for a living.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
17,176
Location
Long Beach CA, the sewer by the sea.
I just looked at the link. I agree, MIG welds. Also, keep this in mind, TIG likes a super clean environment whereas MIG will work in less than ideal conditions. Make no mistake, all welds are better on sanitary metal, back and front as well as down in the crack.
 
OP
B

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
MIG and stick don't go together. TIG and stick use pretty much the same type of machine AFA power source goes. TIG is hard to do upside down and in tight places.

On another note, I do bodywork and my BIL has been doing it since his teens for a living. 40 years now. They use MIG on all kinds of high end cars which is what they specialize in.

You might want to check your facts and then put that MIG to use. The type of wire you use and the type of gas may be selective for your Bimmer, but I don't think so.

I will do some more asking, I just know that the two welders I have talked to, the fabricator friend who is good at welding all implied that mig would not work. Just talked to my dad, our welder is a lincoln stick welder, he thought a mig and a stick. I got more background about the welder friend and he does stick and tig in fabricating industrial products as in pipes and fittings mainly pretty heliarc welds so I don't think he can stick thin stuff with out burn through as he doesn't ever stick stuff that thin. From google research, I think mig would work but is not the right way to do it as it is not a strong as tig and I would have to deal with all the dirty and messy flux.
 
OP
B

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
Is thermal arc any good, I could get that for around $500 with amazon gift cards and amex points through cyberweld.
 

BADSIX

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
895
Location
oregon coast
use a wire machine with hard wire and argon/co2 mix. and theres no messy flux who told you that. 95% of all body shops use wire machines or mig. also why don't you see if you can rent one, my local welding store has rentals.
 
OP
B

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
BMWs have tissue paper metal frames (I have one and have reinforced everything). Save you money and have it done professionally by someone who has experience welding BMWs. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-91-e46-rear-chassissubframe-reinforcement-kit.aspx

Thanks, but I know all about it and I have their kit. I won't save any money by paying someone $1000 to $1500 when I can buy a tig and have someone I know weld it up. I also know it is done right when I do things myself.
 
OP
B

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
use a wire machine with hard wire and argon/co2 mix. and theres no messy flux who told you that. 95% of all body shops use wire machines or mig. also why don't you see if you can rent one, my local welding store has rentals.

I plan on calling them on monday to see if I can rent one. I did think about shielded mig. Since you sound like you know what you are talking about, why does everyone insist on using a tig for this job?
 

John in OH

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Messages
2,444
Location
SE Ohio & Eastern Virginia
Badsix is correct ... gas shielded MIG is clean as a whistle with no flux and minimal spatter ... also it makes a slightly better weld than flux core. The messy flux you are associating with MIG is "flux core" wire MIG and, yeah, it can be messy with lots of spatter. However, the gas shielded setup is more expensive as you need to buy the gas bottle, gas, regulator and hoses ... and the MIG machine must be designed for gas shielding. Many of the low cost MIG units are flux core only.

Stick (SMAW) is not appropriate for such thin metal ... especially in an overhead position.
 

welder4956

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
3,071
Location
Birmingham, AL USA
The pics on your link show MIG spot welds for the crack repair. These are gas shielded MIG with solid wire, not the flux-cored wire. Gasless MIG (flux-cored wire) has no business near a car body, it will only make a mess and burn holes. Same with stick. I paid $1500 for my Lincoln Precision TIG 175. However, for this type of work, the gas-shielded MIG with solid wire, such as ER70S-6, would do a great job. Go with the MIG.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

braxx

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
136
Location
Dearborn Heights, Michigan
To the OP.
Just have it MIG welded. Also, a rosette weld can be done with any type of welder. It is also called a plug weld. All it does is fill in a hole to join the parent metal to the added bracket. The welds in the link you provided ARE mig welds. Some people call it spot weld some call it pulsed, call it what ever. Basically it's "shooting" a spot of weld, stoping for a sec then shooting again. Some people do it so that you don't get a lot of heat build up.
 

braxx

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
136
Location
Dearborn Heights, Michigan
What make? wanna sell it?

It's highly unlikly that it is a MIG/STICK machine. They are very rare. I bet that out of every 1 million MIG welders sold there is ONE machine that can do BOTH MIG and STICK.

Not just because they are 2 different types of weld but they are achieved through different electrical means. Stick welders use constant current to weld and MIG machines use constant voltage. Not many machines can do both. Usually the machines that can do both are expensive (Except the new China welders that just recently came out.)
 

brownbagg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
there is alot of mig stick machine out there, there are not rare, there are very common, but most are what called a suitcase welder, the wire feeder is on the end of the cables.
 
OP
B

bolecailey

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
Houston
He's already made up his mind. Everyone uses TIG.
:headscrat

LOL, I have not made up my mind, I am just trying to do it right and I don't know enough to know what I need to use or who's advice to trust. It is easier to believe people you have known for a while and seen quality work from than a stranger on the internet. That being said, an overwhelming number of you are saying mig is fine but I have seen it plenty of times when a consensus of forum members is flat out wrong. I will talk to my welder friend and see what he says, I am even calling a family friend on monday who does body work and chassis repair to see what his opinion is. I appreciate the advice and will look into mig and gas shielded mig as well as renting a tig. I still am wondering why most shops that do this seem to use a tig. Is it just because it is cleaner and easier to make quality welds? I still have not seen any explanations here as to why mig is fine to use or why it isn't fine. I understand why you would not want to stick it.

Where can I find a mig that is capable of gas shielding, the only ones I have seen don't seem to cost less than a tig.
 

ZRX61

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
28,716
Location
Solar Blight Valley, SoCal

c39er

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
1,663
Location
Seattle, Washington
I have a Miller XMT 304 CC/CV Inverter machine- does DC stick/mig and Tig. It's called a muti-purpose industrial machine.
 

Attachments

  • XMT 304 Muti-Purpose.jpg
    XMT 304 Muti-Purpose.jpg
    127.2 KB · Views: 17

srmofo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
6,161
Location
SW ohio
. I still am wondering why most shops that do this seem to use a tig. Is it just because it is cleaner and easier to make quality welds? I still have not seen any explanations here as to why mig is fine to use or why it isn't fine. I understand why you would not want to stick it.

Where can I find a mig that is capable of gas shielding, the only ones I have seen don't seem to cost less than a tig.

Are they also building manifolds? It just may be the machine they have laying around.

In all honesty, I dont think its going to make a damn bit of difference which method is used as long as its done right. Welded metal is welded metal.

If you do decide on a mig, just make sure its a gas mig. The difference between gas and gasless is night and day. mig is going to be much easier for you to learn on your own, even if you are not this repair yourself, you should still learn how to use your machine. ITs nice not having to depend on people for stuff like this.
 
Last edited:

LWW

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
322
Location
SF Bay
I agree with srmofo. I have a Miller EconoTIG, a "portable" Millermatic 175 for dragging to the race track, a Millermatic 210 MIG for permanent "garage" use and just picked up a Millermatic 211 MVP that is going to replace the 175 & the 210 to save space and get a 110v welder so I don't have to drag my 230v generator to the tracks that only have 110v service.

I've done a lot of welding on rusty old Datsun race cars. You can't get much thinner metal than 70's and 80's Japanese imports! The only thing I use the TIG for is aluminum. The MIG is WAY easier to learn (they don't call us MIG monkeys for no reason!) and the right MIG with the right heat settings and correct wire will work just fine.

A professional shop that does aluminum would most likely have a TIG but:

$370 Hobart Handler 125 from Cyberweld
$125 for the gas conversion kit
$100 for the gas cylinder ($80 if you "rent" it from AirGas)
$60 to fill the cylinder with C25 (Argon 25% & Carbon Dioxide 75% mix)
$50 auto-darkening helmet from Harbor Freight
$15 for welding gloves
$30 for a welding jacket (this is optional).
$8 for a 2lb spool of ER70S-6 .023 solid wire from Harbor Freight.
$72 Tax (based on 9.5% - may not be valid in your state)
$830 and you're ready to handle nearly every automotive welding need you'll ever have!

Good luck!
 

mad57

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,698
Please just find a mig with gas argon bottle and you will be fine, we weld all types of stuff thin sheet metal at the shop and my buddys body shop repairs all with there mig its the best machine for the job. now if your looking to throw money at a new tool for your garage the tig is nice to have as well as a mig for the collection:) for what you can pick up a used machine for mig thats probley what some one who welds for a live would charge you. now if you dont have the skill to do it practice on scrap until you feel comfortable.
 

ebfabman

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
85
This is all mig welded
 

Attachments

  • burbquarter.jpg
    burbquarter.jpg
    59.8 KB · Views: 64
  • 041.jpg
    041.jpg
    140 KB · Views: 68
  • DSC00182.JPG
    DSC00182.JPG
    75.1 KB · Views: 72
  • DSC00202.JPG
    DSC00202.JPG
    127.9 KB · Views: 93
  • DSC00223.JPG
    DSC00223.JPG
    67 KB · Views: 74
  • DSC01603.jpg
    DSC01603.jpg
    140.1 KB · Views: 75

brownbagg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
I have a lincoln stick and miller mig, last week I bought the miller dyna 165 tig. It still sitting on the floor in the box, got $1500 in it and still have to buy a bottle.

I bought the tig because I always wanted one, no other reason
 

czeto

Active member
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Messages
26
Location
Robbinsville, NJ
"They MIG welded it"

Actually, BMW glued a lot of it.
Cole, I have MIG welded many feet but I don't consider myself an expert welder especially when it comes to suspensions on a M3 or race car (street cars are no problem). If you have confidence in yourself or a relative or friend, MIG weld it.
 

pl_silverado

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2005
Messages
2,033
Location
West Bradford, PA
Mig it. No one in their right mind would tig the underbody of a BMW unless it was aluminum like the new ones

My e36 had the same issues. Mig works great. Buy some scrap metal and teach yourself how to weld, then fix your own car. It's not hard.

Here's what you need.

millermatic 180 mig new, $850
Tank of c25 shielding gas, ~$150
roll of .030 solid mig wire $30
 

BADSIX

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
895
Location
oregon coast
good deal, now when using the mig you must make sure that all the metal that you welding is CLEAN. no paint rust or anything you want good clean bare metal front and back and inbetween. if your lap welding you can use weld through primer, get it at your welding shop. use it lightly don't put it on heavy. also make sure your fit up is good :)
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom