Time to upgrade my central ac unit.

[yeldogt]

There's no reason to replace the lines if they're sized right and flushed.

No company I have worked with would reuse the lines -- they all basically gave me the same reason. The small cost of the copper is not worth any risk of a line problem or contamination. The carrier dealer told me they have to .. don't know if this is company/ distributer/ manufacturer driven.

not even an option

 

[yeldogt]

I think we paid about $6k for a new unit last July. The coil in our old one was busted and given it used older refrigerant, the replacement cost was close enough to the repair cost we did the whole thing. We also upgraded to a heat pump, and what a difference that makes in the winter (over electric resistive heat... yes, that's right, the original system was AC only and used the "emergency" heat strips for all heat--we aren't the original owner and didn't pick that!)

I had a choice of higher-efficiency units but I did some payback estimates and the break-even date was further in the future than we plan to stay in the house. Sorry, future owner...

The better units are not just about saving money -- they add comfort and quiet. With variable output they match the need throughout the season -- running at a lower output for longer periods. The HP can also work at lower temps.

Not that many years ago HP's would not work in freezing weather -- they needed the resistance strips. Builders, wanting to save money skipped the HP even though it would have provided cheaper heat for a good chunk of the season.

 

[pepi]

Buy Trane and be done with it, some money spent up front, gives a better return. Buy cheap get what you pay for ...... Absolutely NO way around that, it's like gravity.

Take your eyes off the wallet and look at the goal, make a decision from that prospective.
Greg

BTW heat pumps are pie in the sky and a lousy choice

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

No company I have worked with would reuse the lines -- they all basically gave me the same reason. The small cost of the copper is not worth any risk of a line problem or contamination. The carrier dealer told me they have to .. don't know if this is company/ distributer/ manufacturer driven.

not even an option

Just another way to soak you for more money unless there is an obvious problem with the line set.
Do they replace the lineset every time they change a,burned out compressor?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

No company I have worked with would reuse the lines -- they all basically gave me the same reason. The small cost of the copper is not worth any risk of a line problem or contamination. The carrier dealer told me they have to .. don't know if this is company/ distributer/ manufacturer driven.

not even an option

I know plenty of really big contractors who don't change them either,I've never had any of my suppliers tell me there's any problem with doing it my way.

 

[gtae07]

BTW heat pumps are pie in the sky and a lousy choice

My winter electric bill after installing a heat pump was less than half of what it was before that. Given we have no other option (no gas service here)...

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Buy Trane and be done with it, some money spent up front, gives a better return. Buy cheap get what you pay for ...... Absolutely NO way around that, it's like gravity.

Take your eyes off the wallet and look at the goal, make a decision from that prospective.
Greg

BTW heat pumps are pie in the sky and a lousy choice

There's nothing wrong with heat pumps,it all depends on the area you live in.
As far as trane wreck goes I prefer to see people spend money on good equipment with a good warantee,and the ability to get parts and good local service.
Any air conditioner that is proprely installed should last 15-20 years no matter what the name brand.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

My winter electric bill after installing a heat pump was less than half of what it was before that. Given we have no other option (no gas service here)...

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You can use the same stay Brite 8 on the 410a systems as the r22 systems.
Never had any problems with leaks on them.
I've actually done more condenser and coil change outs to 410a systems already this year than all of last year.
I guess people are optimistic about the economy and are ready to spend money.

Staybrite #8 is silver solder... Now, tell me how to tell the difference between silver solder, tin/antimony or regular old lead free solder on a 25 year old system...

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Just another way to soak you for more money unless there is an obvious problem with the line set.
Do they replace the lineset every time they change a,burned out compressor?

The concern is cleaning the old R22 oil .. other contaminates. It's not always successful. When you get three estimates and all say it's included/ needed .. and they are going for your business?

Why would I put a 12k VS system in if the manufacture recommends new -- for what $100?

 

[honda1998civic]

Ok. Was give multiple brands that this supplier sells and all are the aluminum evaporator coil and fins. Has the issues with aluminum coils been resolved or is this an ongoing problem?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The concern is cleaning the old R22 oil .. other contaminates. It's not always successful. When you get three estimates and all say it's included/ needed .. and they are going for your business?

Why would I put a 12k VS system in if the manufacture recommends new -- for what $100?

Like I said earlier ,I've never had a supplier tell me that I need to change out a lineset on a replacement as long as it's flushed out.
And I've never lost a new condensing unit due to anything left in a line.
Everybody has their own way of doing things,do what works best for you and the situation is all I can say.

 

[Falcon67]

Just another way to soak you for more money unless there is an obvious problem with the line set.
Do they replace the lineset every time they change a,burned out compressor?

Well, abandoning the lines and replacing in our install was maybe $200 out of $6500 job, so why not. The other lines were buried in the slab and brick work in unknown condition, so I wasn't about to take that chance.

 

[honda1998civic]

So Can I keep the old units for recycling? Was told I need a license to even take the inside and outside unit in. Can I just show my receipt of me paying for a new install of my unit as proof?

 

[brewchief]

Talk to the recycling yard and see what they require, here you get your pic taken with the scrap, they get a thumbprint and then mail out a check, your laws will vary.

FWIW a few years ago when scrap was at record highs we averaged around 60$ for an A/C, that was for indoor and outdoor coils stripped apart so we got copper/aluminum price for those, a bit of #2 copper for the lineset and a bit of steel for the housings.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Well, abandoning the lines and replacing in our install was maybe $200 out of $6500 job, so why not. The other lines were buried in the slab and brick work in unknown condition, so I wasn't about to take that chance.

They can juggle the numbers around any way they want on the price to make it sound right.
It all depends on the condition of things and just how,accessable things are.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Staybrite #8 is silver solder... Now, tell me how to tell the difference between silver solder, tin/antimony or regular old lead free solder on a 25 year old system...

Tommy

Anybody who used regular plumbing solder to sweat lines on any system even 25 years is a ******* idiot.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Like I said earlier ,I've never had a supplier tell me that I need to change out a lineset on a replacement as long as it's flushed out.
And I've never lost a new condensing unit due to anything left in a line.
Everybody has their own way of doing things,do what works best for you and the situation is all I can say.

Screw what the suppliers say. They are not the manufacturers engineers nor are they service techs. I don't let the guy behind the counter at AutoZombie tell me how to repair my car, either.

Seriously, Zmax, I'm not criticizing your service techniques. I'm not saying you'll definitely crash a pump if you leave the old line set in place nor am I saying that a soft soldered line set will absolutely fail if used for a 410A system. All I'm saying the a new line set is technically required if the old one wasn't silver soldered or brazed.


Tommy

 

[brewchief]

The concern is cleaning the old R22 oil .. other contaminates. It's not always successful. When you get three estimates and all say it's included/ needed .. and they are going for your business?

Why would I put a 12k VS system in if the manufacture recommends new -- for what $100?

Lennox has a flush procedure for cleaning linesets for reuse.

Variable speed compressor can change the lineset requirements to the point of requiring replacement. The invertor compressor running on low can have problems returning oil so adding traps or using a smaller pipe size on certain vertical runs can be required.

We replace when we can and flush when we can't, the flush isn't cheap so it's a short run it can be cheaper to replace then to flush.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

You can use the same stay Brite 8 on the 410a systems as the r22 systems.
Never had any problems with leaks on them.
I've actually done more condenser and coil change outs to 410a systems already this year than all of last year.
I guess people are optimistic about the economy and are ready to spend money.

I love my stay Brite #8, although I have to admit I haven't used it on any 410a systems because I haven't done any to date being that I've been retired for 9 years. But I won't be afraid to use it when I replace my r22 17 year old 5 ton Bryant with a 410a system.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Anybody who used regular plumbing solder to sweat lines on any system even 25 years is a ******* idiot.

, if it's been install for 25 years and it hasn't leaked it's probably not regular old water pipe solder.

But then again I did a start up for a co worker about 20 years ago. he had everything done when I got there, I pulled a vacuum and set the charge. when I was packing up my stuff he came over to me and told me he had some how grabbed the wrong solder and had used his water pipe solder by mistake.
I said what do you want to do?, he thought for a moment and then said "leave it". Never heard another word about the system coming apart........So be careful "Z" it's still out there wait for you to come along and use that old line set........

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Lennox has a flush procedure for cleaning linesets for reuse.

Variable speed compressor can change the lineset requirements to the point of requiring replacement. The invertor compressor running on low can have problems returning oil so adding traps or using a smaller pipe size on certain vertical runs can be required.

We replace when we can and flush when we can't, the flush isn't cheap so it's a short run it can be cheaper to replace then to flush.

OMG, why does everything have to evolve to be so dam complicated.

Please don't take offense, for what it's worth I enjoy reading your posts, you are obviously very knowledgeable and add worthwhile content to these AC threads.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

, if it's been install for 25 years and it hasn't leaked it's probably not regular old water pipe solder.

But then again I did a start up for a co worker about 20 years ago. he had everything done when I got there, I pulled a vacuum and set the charge. when I was packing up my stuff he came over to me and told me he had some how grabbed the wrong solder and had used his water pipe solder by mistake.
I said what do you want to do?, he thought for a moment and then said "leave it". Never heard another word about the system coming apart........So be careful "Z" it's still out there wait for you to come along and use that old line set........

I was using stay Brite 8 25 years ago.
I aways cut back 4-5' of line from the condensing unit most of the time on any existing line set and use my Rachet bender to bend up a new piece of copper to line up things just the way I like them anyway,same thing on coil side of unit.
So chances are generally pretty good anything questionable will be removed anyway.
If there's something hiden between point a and b the 300-350 lb of nitrogen I leak test will usually find it.

 

[brewchief]

OMG, why does everything have to evolve to be so dam complicated.

Please don't take offense, for what it's worth I enjoy reading your posts, you are obviously very knowledgeable and add worthwhile content to these AC threads.

Lol, trust me when we saw what had to be done we were not impressed, to date I have installed one of the 25 seer inverter heat pumps, it's nice but will take a lonnng time to pay for itself.

The added complications in the linesets are mostly only when it's over 50', not the end of the world but it is one more thing that someone will screw up.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Anybody who used regular plumbing solder to sweat lines on any system even 25 years is a ******* idiot.

No cheet! Seriously, "regular plumbing solder " is not what used to be used instead of brazing or silver bearing solder. 90/10, 95/5, the original Stay Brite and its other equivalents were all originally accepted for soft soldering R22 refrigerant lines. I wouldn't use any of them anymore, but they were widely used.

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Lennox has a flush procedure for cleaning linesets for reuse.

Variable speed compressor can change the lineset requirements to the point of requiring replacement. The invertor compressor running on low can have problems returning oil so adding traps or using a smaller pipe size on certain vertical runs can be required.

We replace when we can and flush when we can't, the flush isn't cheap so it's a short run it can be cheaper to replace then to flush.

The issue.

Carrier also has a cleaning procedure --- I had a regional rep/ technician along with my contractor a couple of years ago when I was as debating how to go with my systems ... Carrier had just redesigned the Greenspeed and my place was a bit strange and he was available. I ended up with the 5 peed unit -- on the reps recommendation. The line set and cleaning was discussed -- keeping the old line set was the absolute last way to go .. as they preferred new.

They have well over 100 of the 5 speeds going .

 

[brokenknee]

what makes a good install vs a bad install?

Let me start by saying I am not a HVAC tech. I did go to night school for two years and got a certificate of completion a number of years ago. Some of the real techs may differ with my answer and I am OK with that.

This is what i recall,

1. Use nitrogen when brazing the lines as this prevents oxidation on the inside of the lines that will eventually flake off and enter the compressor.

2. Make sure to use a heat sink (wet rag) to protect the valves when brazing.

3. Use nitrogen to pressure test and purge lines.

4. Pull and hold vacuum down to 500 microns for 15 to 30 minutes. They must have a micron gauge for this as ac gauges do not measure microns.

5. Properly purge line set on gauges to prevent the introduction of oxygen (water) back into the system.

6. Let system run for 15, 20 minutes to let system stabilize and check to make sure all is OK.

I am sure I may have missed a step or two as class was 19 years ago and I have not installed a system for the last seven.

As far as the Goodman issue, I installed one in my house and it was still running 16 years later when I sold the place. When the ac takes a dive at my current house I would have no problem installing another.

 

[Brian_WK]

Let me start by saying I am not a HVAC tech. I did go to night school for two years and got a certificate of completion a number of years ago. Some of the real techs may differ with my answer and I am OK with that.

This is what i recall,

1. Use nitrogen when brazing the lines as this prevents oxidation on the inside of the lines that will eventually flake off and enter the compressor.

2. Make sure to use a heat sink (wet rag) to protect the valves when brazing.

3. Use nitrogen to pressure test and purge lines.

4. Pull and hold vacuum down to 500 microns for 15 to 30 minutes. They must have a micron gauge for this as ac gauges do not measure microns.

5. Properly purge line set on gauges to prevent the introduction of oxygen (water) back into the system.

6. Let system run for 15, 20 minutes to let system stabilize and check to make sure all is OK.

I am sure I may have missed a step or two as class was 19 years ago and I have not installed a system for the last seven.

As far as the Goodman issue, I installed one in my house and it was still running 16 years later when I sold the place. When the ac takes a dive at my current house I would have no problem installing another.

Yep that covers the basics of the piping. You also have line sizing, duct sizing, equipment sizing, startup, charging, placement, programming, Air handler/Furnace settings, aesthetics, etc that all comes part of a good install. No brand big or small sold in the USA is more or less any better than the next. If you order some odd ball **** that gets boat shipped from North Korea I would be be worried, but other than that its the whole Ford vs Cadillac vs Scion vs what ever argument they all have their ups and downs. They have all made garbage at one time.

Brian

 

[honda1998civic]

Thanks folks. So what solder should be used? Supposed to have my ac installed today. I've sweated copper lines before for plumbing but I just buy the cheap **** and it's still held up for years. I just want to verify that the ac tech is using proper solder.

 

[honda1998civic]

If it rained and technician was able to solder but there is another ****** that appears to go internal on outside unit got filled with water is this any concern? The tech going to have to blow it out with nitrogen first or will vacuum pull it out? I haven't asked him but I just went outside to look while he went on break.

 

[honda1998civic]

New ac. Installation. Recommendations on do or donts?

 

[honda1998civic]

Outside unit. Are the old units worth anything if they were still operable? Just not efficient.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Outside unit. Are the old units worth anything if they were still operable? Just not efficient.

I know plenty of people who would give their left nut for a,good used r22 condenser right about now.

 

[honda1998civic]

Is R22 really becoming that valuable? I mean I have people saying its value is increasing but I still see R22 stocked everywhere I go.

Guess I can post up old units on Craigslist and see if anyone has any use for them.

 

[Brian_WK]

I would tape the filter drier to the suction line and re route the 2 wire to the condensing unit behind the chimney stack then tape it out of the way so it doesn't rest on it and chance melting the wire (although it may be B-vent and not get hot can't tell from the pictures. Tape where the new insulation meets the old on the inside unit. I can't see the drain but hopefully there is a trap with a clean out. Not the cleanest install and looks like the guy doesn't like benders... Other than that make sure you keep a clean indoor filter as newer "A" coils with the smaller fin spacing tend to plug up quicker.

Brian

 

[honda1998civic]

So as long as I change our filter every 30 days religiously then I shouldn't have to worry about washing/ cleaning A frame inside correct? And yes the wire hanging to thermostat was going to be replaced today because there was too many splices where a mouse had chewed on wiring but technician worked until 10 pm and wanted to have ac running before he left.

Not sure how big of a deal this is but I would have liked thermostat to show the temperature it was set at as well as the current temp. It only shows current temp and I have to press button to see the set point. It would just have minimized the amount of times someone pokes at the thermostat which for me is a concern with wife or kids hormones surging and constantly wanting an ice box inside. Is the costs a big difference? I'm sure I got a very cheap thermostat

 

[Brian_WK]

So as long as I change our filter every 30 days religiously then I shouldn't have to worry about washing/ cleaning A frame inside correct? And yes the wire hanging to thermostat was going to be replaced today because there was too many splices where a mouse had chewed on wiring but technician worked until 10 pm and wanted to have ac running before he left.

Not sure how big of a deal this is but I would have liked thermostat to show the temperature it was set at as well as the current temp. It only shows current temp and I have to press button to see the set point. It would just have minimized the amount of times someone pokes at the thermostat which for me is a concern with wife or kids hormones surging and constantly wanting an ice box inside. Is the costs a big difference? I'm sure I got a very cheap thermostat

You usually can't program super cheap t-stats for any display options.
This is my go to cheap thermostat Honeywell RTH6450D1009 5-1-1-Day Programmable Thermostat

Brian

 

[honda1998civic]

Well I'd rather have the one you posted a link to. Is it possible I can install myself? I didn't have a choice on what was installed but i looked it up and it's only valued at like 5 bucks.

Would I need to run new wiring for the thermostat you recommended? Going to order it and see if it will be compatible. I have gas heat.

 

[Brian_WK]

Well I'd rather have the one you posted a link to. Is it possible I can install myself? I didn't have a choice on what was installed but i looked it up and it's only valued at like 5 bucks.

Would I need to run new wiring for the thermostat you recommended? Going to order it and see if it will be compatible. I have gas heat.

It is easy to change yourself.

No extra wires needed as it has battery option if you don't have a "C" wire.

Turn off power to furnace

Remove current stat take a picture that you can use to identify later.

Remove wires from old put in the corresponding spots on the new. Example move your Y to Y G to G R to R Etc. You will be using R, Y, G, W, and if its available C. Reference you earlier picture if needed.

power furnace back up check stat settings as you have a few options that need to be set these are in the installation instructions included with the stat. Like gas heat/ electric heat. Max and min set point temps. If you want it programmable for set back or not. Set day and time.

Sit back and enjoy.

Brian

 

[honda1998civic]

Ok. Thanks. Going to get the one you suggested ordered. This is my current wiring