Tooling organization

[lilscorpion]

And I agree those videos were valuable. I've been thinking more about 32mm.



My big beef about 32mm system is the Swiss cheese look. I guess you could just drill holes where the slides would be and then maybe 3-5 holes in area where shelf would go.

The look doesn't bother me that much (or maybe I'm used to it). The adjustability of it makes a shelving system more future-proof and, for that reason only, I'm ok with it. This cabinet I just made could have been done without the top-most and bottom-most set of holes. I'm not sure anyone would ever use them. Difficult to say that with any of the others though.

 

[wkearney99]

Question: Can you buy the TS w/o the standard track and instead get the LR32 track? That would be potential big cost savings.

Meh, if you're buying Festool stuff you're already WELL past quibbling over a $150 rail. It's the $500 for the guide that rides on top of it that's the expensive part! $500 for the LR32 does not include a holey rail. It's a matter of which of the three sizes (42, 55 and 95") best suits your application. The LR32 kit does include the connector necessary to join more than one rail together to keep the 32mm spacing of the holes.

But, to answer your question, yes I believe it's possible for a dealer to swap out the regular rail for one with the holes (for whatever price offset there is between them). You'd be dealing with the holes all the time, and dust/debris collecting in the holes could potentially add a bit of clean-up. And the inevitable dings to the rail when you get irritated and whack it against something to knock the chips loose all the time.

 

[wkearney99]

The look doesn't bother me that much (or maybe I'm used to it). The adjustability of it makes a shelving system more future-proof and, for that reason only, I'm ok with it. This cabinet I just made could have been done without the top-most and bottom-most set of holes. I'm not sure anyone would ever use them.

When we had some cabinets made for a wet bar/butler's pantry setup I did end up buying a few more shelves and using an 6.5" gap at the top & bottom. The cabinet's got a lot of glassware, including coffee cups, and those use holes leave 6.5" for that shelving space. I'm guessing the cabinet makers 'know better' because the holes run to about 4" top & bottom.

If it was open shelving, without doors and was being used to display things I can understand why the holes wouldn't be a good look for some folks. Me, I'd rather err on the side of caution and allow for different future uses.

 

[lilscorpion]

Hi
I am going to show this to the wife, it is not just me that take more time to do a job, but she will say it takes me years not months. LOL

Ps great thread

During your discussion please include what my wife will refer to as exhibit H - N in our divorce proceedings. The picture is current day of a kitchen remodel that occurred a year ago last October. Since then I also have the office, master bath, kids bath, a basement remodel we did 3 years ago, and some water source mods last year.

Left to right --> kitchen remodel - no outlet cover, incomplete evacuation system attached to hood, and missing cabinet filler.



Exhibit I (Left to Right) --> office remodel - base cabinet has upper drawers installed, bottom drawers not installed, and drawer faces not yet made.



Exhibit J (L to R) - kids bathroom remodel - builtin fully installed but doors and drawer faces not made, vanity missing doors and drawer faces.



Exhibit K (L to R) - master bath remodel - builtin fully installed but w/ no doors or drawer faces made, missing bottom drawer slides (one set short ordered - oops), vanity done with the exception of doors and drawer fronts (see the pattern?), upper vanity missing finish side panels, doors, and drawer fronts.



Exhibit L - the wrecked a$$ living room that's the general staging space/place for all that either doesn't have a place, was ordered by accident, things displaced at the moment, or tools used at some point over the last year.



Exhibit M - basement remodel - raw birch & MDF face frame trim needing only paint.



Exhibit N - house filter & water pressure regulator install - previous door not big enough for new access hole(s).



I'm seriously up for husband of the year award. Only thing holding off the attorneys at this point is the idea that someday it'll all be over. [emoji13]

 

[icecactus]

Question: Can you buy the TS w/o the standard track and instead get the LR32 track? That would be potential big cost savings.

Yes you can. I bought the TS55 and swapped the rails. Cost me $5 more and was worth every penny.

www.shopfestool.com is where I bought mine, but I am sure other dealers will swap it too.

 

[Huxley]

...the idea that someday it'll all be over.

"Over" as in completely finished, retirement, death or ?? Could be a triumphant or tragic ending.

Thank you for sharing - many of us likely have similar, incomplete projects. I suspect the root cause might be genetic. Or it could just be a matter of priorities / deadlines.

 

[Kevin54]

Scorpion.....I started back at the beginning of this thread AGAIN yesterday, was up at 3:30 this morning, and just now finished it. There is just so much awesome in this thread that so I can keep it at hand when I get ready for my big organization, I put it in my Signature, for all to possibly see that visits any of my threads. The work you do it just way over the top, and should be a must read for anyone.

The ideas in this thread, not only by yourself, but others, are abundant enough that anyone with a table saw, or a mill, or sometimes just the very minimum tools should be off to a great start of getting organized.

And again, this thread should be required reading.

 

[jeff g]

During your discussion please include what my wife will refer to as exhibit H - N in our divorce proceedings. The picture is current day of a kitchen remodel that occurred a year ago last October. Since then I also have the office, master bath, kids bath, a basement remodel we did 3 years ago, and some water source mods last year.

Hi
It looks like you are bad at doors and drawer fronts.

 

[lilscorpion]

Scorpion.....I started back at the beginning of this thread AGAIN yesterday, was up at 3:30 this morning, and just now finished it. There is just so much awesome in this thread that so I can keep it at hand when I get ready for my big organization, I put it in my Signature, for all to possibly see that visits any of my threads. The work you do it just way over the top, and should be a must read for anyone.



The ideas in this thread, not only by yourself, but others, are abundant enough that anyone with a table saw, or a mill, or sometimes just the very minimum tools should be off to a great start of getting organized.



And again, this thread should be required reading.

Thanks for the compliments. Means a lot.

 

[lilscorpion]

Hi

It looks like you are bad at doors and drawer fronts.

Yes it does so appear. I actually planned everything this way so I could approach things in a production way (old habits carried over from the manufacturing business). I'm a weekend away from setting up the garage to make a **** load of doors and drawer fronts. Once I'm past the assembly stage I'll go into finish mode and stain and clear everything at once (though four different colors). I've left the house a wreck for a long time but I think it would have taken much longer to do a room beginning to finish one at a time...I think. [emoji53]

 

[OJ Bartley]

Just wait... once it's all completely finished. Your wife will start asking why it's so quiet in the house, and why you're always hanging around bothering her.

 

[lilscorpion]

Though they've held up exceptionally well (except the one I dropped from waist height to the floor - DOA) I've never really liked the bins I made out of my scrap melamine because of the look.



With the cabinet drawers complete I now have a mass of pre-finished drops of random sizes taking up valuable floor space. After looking through All of it, the size lines up well with the bin dimensional measurements. The previous been design was very simple and had a nothing more than a piece of 1/4-inch melamine stapled to the bottom (think I also glued it but don't remember).



A design like this makes assembly incredibly simple yet leaves something to be desired for both looks and strength (though I've never had one fail). After having build the drawers with the dado'd in bottom I lean towards the stronger design and cleaner look. All four of the sides of the drawer are machined to have a 1/2-inch wide dado that's 5/16-inches deep, 1/2-inch up from the bottom. This allows the sides to effectively support the bottom all the way around.



Because I had some left overs that had already been dado'e for the bottom I was able to work through a prototype and get all of the component measurements right up front which is sweet. Get one right and then I can make as big of a batch as I have material for. Just to replace the ones I have I need 24. To fill the cabinet I need 48.



With the first one out of the way and a defined cut list, I get busy on the table saw and miter saw.



With components cut its time to work through the assembly process and figure out how to optimize it. I start by pre-drilling/counter sinking the front and back for the screws.



The bottom is dropped in one of the sides and then the front and back are clamped in place so the pre-drilled holes can be used as guides to pre-drill the side before the SCREWD are sunk.



The process is repeated for both ends. Because the parts are all square the tightening of the screws pull the assembly square and the second side drops in perfectly.



The assembly process seems easy enough except the pre-drilling of the front and backs. Though I could easily do them by hand I can do them in the mill much faster. I set up the views so I could run two at a time.



I used to never use the mill for woodworking until I realized it was stupid not to. Something that would take me an hour by hand takes 10 minutes with higher accuracy. I was now able to assemble three more without needing to Dado.



One got a middle divider but the others were left without. Since I typically buy fasteners in bulk I most frequently need full bins. Since I don't have time right not to get into the Dadoing I'll store off the components until I do. Im okay with this because these bin components are much easier to store than the random sizes drops and I now have my floor space back.

 

[Strouty]

Re: Tool Organization

Those look much better.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Those drawers look awfully heavy. Do they need to be made out of material that heavy? Seems to me you're adding unnecessary wait and the extra thickness is taking up lots of space.

 

[Strouty]

****,

He was using up his scrap. Do they need to be that thick, no, but they will last forever. At least until he decides to build more with thinner wood.

 

[lilscorpion]

Always built my stuff borderline heavy/heavy duty. Going thinner makes using a reasonable sized screw either blow out the wood (even when countersinking) or not get enough bite to have great holding power. Fronts and backed could have been 1/2 or 3/8-inch but it's true, the majority of the scrap was 3/4-inch so...they are. They're actually considerably lighter than its melamine counterpart but you can't see that in the pics I guess.

Edit: it's also much stronger to cut the slot for the bottom out of thicker material.

 

[dusterbd13]

so I haven't read every post yet. that will take a few days.....

but first, let me say that you have sparked new ideas and concepts in my brain that I had never even imagined were possible. thank you. I truly appreciate it. especially the unconventional cabinet ideas. you are a genius.

my first question, of many, is about the French cleat system you are using.
what dimensions are you working with? your shop is used similar to mine, with similar things being put on the cleats. im assuming with your system that you have ahd no failures.

so what height are you using? in one of the pictures, it appears that the cleat for the hanging object is about 1.5 inches at its tallest point. but I haven't been able to figure out the height if the wall portion. can you enlighten me?

also, it appears that you have broken your wall cleats up into a gridwork with 6 inch wide pieces. why?

thanks for the education. yours is the most versatile and best executed version of this ive seen.

Michael

 

[Magnet]

I've just spend several days going over this thread multiple times. I'm in awe of your imagination and skills.

Thank you so much for posting so many great ideas and how tos

 

[wkearney99]

Some of the most important things about using the cleats is the screws into the wall, and how well it's attached to the back of the cabinet. You're more likely to have a screw shearing off before the cleat material itself would fail. The size of the cleat is dictated more by how it's going to be attached to the cabinet.

 

[lilscorpion]

I arbitrarily picked a couple of dimensions to hold consistently across my implementation -

The outside width is 3 1/4 inches



the inside (space between) is 2 3/4 inches



The pice I attach to the thing being hung is less than the 2 3/4 inches no matter what but I pick two different easy to remember dimensions (inner) - 1-inch and 2. I use 2-inch for the heavier stuff because it allows for more screws.





Never had s failure and some of the items are fairly heavy.

 

[dusterbd13]

Exactly what I want to know. THANK YOU. Mind if I blatantly copy it for my shop?

 

[lilscorpion]

Exactly what I want to know. THANK YOU. Mind if I blatantly copy it for my shop?

I'd recommend it. The French cleats have been awesome. Wish I'd put them on a couple of my other walls in hind sight.

 

[lilscorpion]

Re: Tool Organization

Got a little time to work on shop this weekend. Finally got around to putting up the addition to the drawers above the saw. It's built to the same dimensions which resulted in an interesting constraint.



Originally I had planned on more drawers but decided at the last minute to try some trays for Durham drawers that have never really had a home. Had to make some goofy trays for them to fit and utilized some left over 12-inch crappy drawer slides.

.

Need to make the fronts but look okay the way they are for the time being.



Due to the limitation of the slides (3/4 extension) I have to slide out a drawer a little before I can fully open the lid but there's enough support so I don't have to fully remove it. If nothing else it looks better.

 

[jeffmoss26]

That is awesome!!

 

[tricksel]

For drawer & box making, I found this quite a handy & handsome solution. Never used, but boy, does this make it easy!

 

[lilscorpion]

For drawer & box making, I found this quite a handy & handsome solution. Never used, but boy, does this make it easy!

Interesting idea. Concept wouldn't work with bottom mount (hidden) slides so you'd have to be content with side mount. The optimization of sheet goods would be tough too. For a drawer that's 24w x 24l x 5d you'd need a 34 x 34 (add to the the cut dimension). Cut from a 5' x 5' sheet (or 60-inch x 60-inch) I'd get 1 drawer and a large amount of unusable waste (sure I could use it for something). Using the method I used I could easily build 2 because I can take advantage of nesting. Big deal? Maybe not but it would make it cost prohiitive on the manufacturer. Another issue is if the drawer dimensions were too large to fit available material sizes.

As for the point of the video - the patent pending protects this guy for a year however I doubt the idea would survive the patent process (which is what interested parties will really need to launch). To me the part of the concept that's novel is the lack of the through-cut and tape which could be accomplished with a different profile/grind utilizing the same process which won't be considered by the process but it's unlikely a patent would be issuable for it. The patent wouldn't apply to a router bit with the necessary profile if it were applied for on the saw blade. Even as a saw blade I'm not sure if the patent could protect the concept. To bypass the patent you only need to make improvements to the design which are defendable by supporting facts - like change the grind to increase the glue-able surface area which, in turn, increases the joint strength - patent infringement avoided.

 

[wkearney99]

To bypass the patent you only need to...

Be prepared to pay for counsel to defend your attempt. That and defending the patent would likewise require spending money up front to challenge potential infringement. That and without reading the actual patent application it's questionable to state what kind of changes would or wouldn't avoid infringement.

Yeah, the whole thing is a racket, but it's never a 'simple change'.

Besides, what he's doing seems little more than bent wood boxes that have been around for thousands of years amongst native communities.

 

[tricksel]

Interesting idea. Concept wouldn't work with bottom mount (hidden) slides so you'd have to be content with side mount. The optimization of sheet goods would be tough too. For a drawer that's 24w x 24l x 5d you'd need a 34 x 34 (add to the the cut dimension). Cut from a 5' x 5' sheet (or 60-inch x 60-inch) I'd get 1 drawer and a large amount of unusable waste (sure I could use it for something). Using the method I used I could easily build 2 because I can take advantage of nesting. Big deal? Maybe not but it would make it cost prohiitive on the manufacturer. Another issue is if the drawer dimensions were too large to fit available material sizes.

Wow, you *do* think of... well, everything...! It absolutely might not be handy for drawers because of this, absolutely true.
However, while not being the most optimal solution for -larger- drawers, it might be for the little part boxes you made as well. It makes them reasonably sturdy, the looks are as good as can be with the panels you choose, and, because of the smaller surface you need, the use of cutoffs is more possible. Also, with a little handiness, you might be able to use the table saw router wise, by picking a smaller cutoff, made to size, and only "routing" the edge off. However, this of course is far less easy and quite a bit slower to make.

As for the point of the video - the patent pending protects this guy for a year however I doubt the idea would survive the patent process (which is what interested parties will really need to launch). To me the part of the concept that's novel is the lack of the through-cut and tape which could be accomplished with a different profile/grind utilizing the same process which won't be considered by the process but it's unlikely a patent would be issuable for it. The patent wouldn't apply to a router bit with the necessary profile if it were applied for on the saw blade. Even as a saw blade I'm not sure if the patent could protect the concept. To bypass the patent you only need to make improvements to the design which are defendable by supporting facts - like change the grind to increase the glue-able surface area which, in turn, increases the joint strength - patent infringement avoided.

I skipped a part of the video and also watched a part without sound, I guess I missed the part where he talks about some patent. I think it's a little far fetched to get a patent for this as well. But, maybe because "us Dutch people" are a little less thinking about making money on this kind of stuff, I don't know. While the idea is quite handy, I wouldn't say it could get through patent process. I'd say it would already be great if you get your name referenced on forums and the likes for this.

 

[wkearney99]

The patent process, like anything else in life, has it's pros and cons. I think it's needlessly insulting to consider wanting to avail oneself of patent protection as somehow thinking 'too much' about money. That and gross generalizations based on heritage are usually wrong.

 

[bearcub]

I am enjoying these projects you have been doing. I know my dad would have enjoyed them also. Thanks for sharing them.

 

[tricksel]

The patent process, like anything else in life, has it's pros and cons. I think it's needlessly insulting to consider wanting to avail oneself of patent protection as somehow thinking 'too much' about money. That and gross generalizations based on heritage are usually wrong.

I'm sorry, and you're absolutely right. It was absolutely not meant the way you describe it, but I fully understand the way you read my message. In no way do I want to insult anybody, and I'm afraid my post above absolutely seems that way.
Apologies for this.

 

[lilscorpion]

Re: Tool Organization

Unfortunately the patent process doesn't always defend the idea it should nor does it always hold infringers accountable for infringements like we'd hope. In a David and Goliath case it's possible to knowingly infringe when the infringer (the Goliath in this analogy) has the financial backing to make it an expensive enough legal battle that the infringee (David) loses regardless.

To over simplify this - the legal process usually only has the attorneys as the winners. Stay out of that game. If it were me, I woulda just shared the concept with you guys and let you crown me a really smart dude.

 

[lilscorpion]

Be prepared to pay for counsel to defend your attempt. That and defending the patent would likewise require spending money up front to challenge potential infringement...

No desire to het involved in that game on any side. Here's my gig - a patent prevents me from profiting financially on someone else's designs. It doesn't prevent me from copying them though for my own personal gain meaning, if I want one, I build one. Based on my experiences I almost always make changes anyway and thus far I've never sold anything I've "like" (have given some away tho). I stopped building for profit quite some time ago. Never missed it.

 

[tricksel]

Re: Tool Organization

Unfortunately the patent process doesn't always defend the idea it should nor does it always hold infringers accountable for infringements like we'd hope. In a David and Goliath case it's possible to knowingly infringe when the infringer (the Goliath in this analogy) has the financial backing to make it an expensive enough legal battle that the infringee (David) loses regardless.

To over simplify this - the legal process usually only has the attorneys as the winners. Stay out of that game. If it were me, I woulda just shared the concept with you guys and let you crown me a really smart dude.

While formulated totally wrong, that's kind of what I was trying to say. The David-Goliath example has more than once been the case for the major players in computer software, tools, or even the food industry.
Also, the other way which is used quite often, is the "hey, you got a nice patent. What does your company cost?"-way. More then often just to let a brilliant product (or competitor) die silently.

 

[SLYDIT]

The last group is the group I fall into. If you happen to know someone that does it professionally, ask them for advice. 9 times out of 10 they'll invite you in and share more than you can retain in a single 2 hour session. If you're lucky enough to have a resource like this, accept as much of the knowledge they are willing to give. Don't take advantage and don't wear out your welcome! If you can manage all of that, I've found it's worth more than just about any other type of experience.

When i was an apprentice electrician at a very large factory i used to use my downtime to go and visit all the other trades on site and learn from them. Everything from fitting/turning/plumbing/welding/ fiberglass work/ cabinet making/painting etc it was like i was doing 5 apprenticeships at once.
The things I learned there from all the "old school" was invaluable.

 

[lilscorpion]

When i was an apprentice electrician at a very large factory i used to use my downtime to go and visit all the other trades on site and learn from them. Everything from fitting/turning/plumbing/welding/ fiberglass work/ cabinet making/painting etc it was like i was doing 5 apprenticeships at once.

The things I learned there from all the "old school" was invaluable.

That's awesome. I wish there was such an opportunity for me. If gladly give up most of my spare time given the opportunity even now. A little fiberglass instruction would be fantastic.

 

[Strouty]

Lilscorpion, I am getting ready to start some woodworking and I was wondering if you would recommend a dovetail jig, or something else. If so please share, I am not going to say money is no concern, but I am not looking to buy a one time use POS either. I need to make a couple of bureaus and some night stands. Also figured this would be a good excuse for a bump. Thanks!

 

[lilscorpion]

I have the Porter Cable 4216 jig. I've built a few sets of drawers with it and it worked well. It has more features than I planned to use originally (I bought it early in my woodworking experience). Only thing that ***** about it is storing it. It needs its own shelf or box or something but I assume all similar setups have the same problem.





I also have this little Rockler fixture that works on a router table. Thought it was a super slick idea and would allow me to make nice boxes. It works but the jig is a little cheesy and it actually makes it tough to build big boxes because the material has to stand straight up and you gotta balance it. Just feels like I'm focusing on the wrong things when using it.





Leigh 4DR has a reputation as being the best though I've never personally used it myself. A friend has it and has used a Porter Cable like mine and said the Leigh is much better if you're setup for dust collection and you want to cut other than basic dovetail spacing. If I had to do it again, I'd get the Leigh.





No dust collection *****. If the Porter Cable had it I'd want for nothing more. If I ever get around to getting a Festool router (they have awesome dust collection) it may just be good enough.

 

[Strouty]

Re: Tool Organization

Thanks for the input I will be taking a closer look at both of those.

 

[tricksel]

Hi lilscorpion,
I wanted to show this really awesome thread to a friend of mine, but unfortunately the images at 3amcook.com are down... Do you still have 'em elsewhere? Heck, If you need hosting for them, PM me, I'm willing to do it.