Tools from the old world

[losvre]

The 151 version of the new Facom 1/2 along with the DeWalt made in Italy Facom style 1/4 drive.

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These seems to be not a palm control version.


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[GerMec]

They’re all made :-

3/8 Rubber Handle - J.161
3/8 Long/Flex Rubber Handle - J.153A
3/8 Steel Handle - J.155A
3/8 Steel Handle Short - J.161E
3/8 Steel Handle Long - J.157A
3/8 Steel Handle Long/Flex - J.158A

These are the Italian made ‘Palm Control’ Ratchets. I presume that Stanley will want to discontinue these at some point in the hope of forcing people to buy the Taiwanese ones. The Rubber handle tools are readily available at the moment though. You have to hunt around a bit more for the steel handle ones, but you’ve always had to!

For 1/4 Drive replace J with R, for 1/2 drive, replace with S. There are even more styles but I don’t have the part no’s!

Here are a couple of mine. There’s really nothing I dislike about these tools, and in the U.K. you can usually pick ‘em up for about a third of the cost of the Snap On equivalent. I suppose that’s why you see so many about!

You just made me order one of those metal grip ratchets...R.157A. 1/4" long handle version. They are really hard to find now

 

[HRNTK]

Some metal handle facom ratchets..

 

[scubadoober]

Im with you. Also liked their palm controls which they kind of did away with. They don't seem to have much interest in bringing out variations of their round heads either.

They can be bought in Stanley's Proto line. Flex, Standard length, and long 1/2". I have the 3/8" flex and it is what I would consider a perfect length for a daily ratchet, compact head, smooth action, and balanced.

http://www.protoindustrial.com/en/searchlistproduct/subcategory-Ratchets/brand-Proto/page-1/display-20/

 

[JBH]

They’re all made :-

3/8 Rubber Handle - J.161
3/8 Long/Flex Rubber Handle - J.153A
3/8 Steel Handle - J.155A
3/8 Steel Handle Short - J.161E
3/8 Steel Handle Long - J.157A
3/8 Steel Handle Long/Flex - J.158A

These are the Italian made ‘Palm Control’ Ratchets. I presume that Stanley will want to discontinue these at some point in the hope of forcing people to buy the Taiwanese ones. The Rubber handle tools are readily available at the moment though. You have to hunt around a bit more for the steel handle ones, but you’ve always had to!

SBD recently introduced new Italian ones so they’re actually a newer product than the pear heads. They also still sell the old ones through Proto for now.

I have a Proto (“FUP”) flex in 1/4” drive, and pear head Facom and USAG in 3/8” and 1/2” drives. All are fine. There’s nothing notably superior about the Italian made tool. The Italian ones are more limited. The extendable QR flex seems like a gimmick but in use it’s actually a brilliant design.

 

[JBH]

True. Gone are the short, long, or long flex Palm Control ratchets.

Their R161B is a darn good looking ratchet IMO, but no variations.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gZCkKZX7XiA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

For some reason their 1/4” drive line generally is very limited. Their bit ratchet line is more filled out!

 

[TjoFrasse]

That Bahco ratchet has some great features, where are they sold?

It's vintage level stuff! If you find one, it's NOS or used. I'd love to play around with one.

Are you sure? I bought one new on Amazon in december and I can find it listed on their online catalogue and many stores. Bahco 7755-3/8

 

[mr.lemons]

One of the Irwin cutters I just purchased had a couple of rust spots which I removed with a wire brush. The grey coating on the cutters looks to be paint rather than an oxidized coating which unsurprisingly scrapes off. I don't understand the thinking behind using paint as a finish on pliers.

 

[mrspeed]

One of the Irwin cutters I just purchased had a couple of rust spots which I removed with a wire brush. The grey coating on the cutters looks to be paint rather than an oxidized coating which unsurprisingly scrapes off. I don't understand the thinking behind using paint as a finish on pliers.

German Tool Reviews talks about the painted finish as well. Very odd choice in Irwin's part.

https://www.germantoolreviews.com/irwin-nws-linemans-pliers/

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[mr.lemons]

Talking of tool reviews. Watched a few videos from this guy. His more recent vids are about European and Japanese tools. I think he shares some interesting observations. I'm a bit bias though as he likes PB Swiss.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XZaxSPg_ogA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[sickpup]

I find it hard to believe that the European mechanics working on those small European engines wouldn't want a FACOM/USAG flex head or long handled ratchet. what am i missing?

You're not missing anything, we do want them.

I'm a long time Facom user, 20+ years so alll my spanners, sockets, ratchets, pliers, screwdrivers etc are Facom and the reduction in ratchet range to my view is very odd.
It looks like the 72tooth ratchet mechanisms are now being used in the Mac Tools ratchets that supply everything you suggest above at a much higher price than the Facom stuff cost so I guess its just another marketing and money move.

 

[iyan22suryana]

Hi monte, is wagener from germany?

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[mr.lemons]

I like my Irwin /NMW cutters also the only draw back is that it does not open wide enough for some jobs.

Compared to 180mm standard diagonal cutters. Irwin are 200mm.



Compared to 200mm Knipex Cobolt cutters.

 

[Joao]

 

[mrspeed]

I like my Irwin /NMW cutters also the only draw back is that it does not open wide enough for some jobs.

Compared to 180mm standard diagonal cutters. Irwin are 200mm.



Compared to 200mm Knipex Cobolt cutters.

There's no doubt the compound cutters don't open as much as the regular cutters, since the concept is to decrease effort from a given movement in the handles by taking the cutters through smaller motion for that same handle movement. It is interesting though seeing the difference.

Here are some pictures comparing the Irwin/NWS compound joint cutters with the Knipex TwinForce cutters, as well as a bunch of other regular joint cutters from Knipex, VBW, Gedore, Facom, Bahco, Wiha, and Beta. The widest opening cutters seem to be the Wiha.




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[mrspeed]

While I was out in the garden the postman turned up with a box from Germany. VBW 587620 180mm Side-Cutters. My first from VBW or Stahlwille. Textured handle grips look and feel very similar to Knipex Cobra grips. Marked 'Made in Germany.'

I'm quite a fan of the VBW pliers. They remind me of something between Knipex and Gedore. The handle texture is almost identical to Gedore. The quality seems very similar to Knipex on initial comparison, and I like the textured handles better than the typical smooth, dipped PVC handles. The downside is that VBW doesn't have nearly the selection of Knipex, though they do have a better selection than many other brands. I also like their cases.

Here are the VBW pliers I've recently gotten, along with some side by side shots with comparable Knipex pliers.




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[superautobacs]

Are you sure? I bought one new on Amazon in december and I can find it listed on their online catalogue and many stores. Bahco 7755-3/8

Hey, it's been a while!

I'll be darned! Thanks for posting that it exists in Bahco colour scheme!
The Belzer branded one was grey (instead of the Bahco orange) and probably ended production in early 2000's. They started production early 90's, IIRC.
The Belzer one's started as 60-tooth mechanisms, just like their round head ratchets. The current Bahco's seem to be 72-tooth?

How do they work in real use?

Hi monte, is wagener from germany?

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Not Monte here, but judging by the "raised panel" style of wrench, I'd guess it's not German made.

 

[superautobacs]

A store in Osaka, Japan that specialized in importing reputable brands from around the world, many from Europe, closed for good recently. I made a video as a tribute to that store which was in business for over 60 years. Perhaps there's no other store in the world that had the selection this store offered.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4JYshaz14wc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[mr.lemons]

Here are the VBW pliers I've recently gotten, along with some side by side shots with comparable Knipex pliers.

I've notice before that standard combination pliers look very similar in shape and both have that distinctive black ring. I wondered if Knipex made the VBW combination pliers but that wouldn't make much sense.

A store in Osaka, Japan that specialized in importing reputable brands from around the world, many from Europe, closed for good recently.

Very much a candy store for big kids. Looks amazing.

 

[modifier73]

Beeing a lefty, I could not resist the Hazet 760L-2. I really like the adjustment mechanism.

I also got the Stahlwille/VBW "Powergrip", and I do prefer the grip and adjustment to my Knipex plierwrenches.

 

[upgrading]

Farewell cool Osaka tool store.

 

[tanukiboy]

A store in Osaka, Japan that specialized in importing reputable brands from around the world, many from Europe, closed for good recently. I made a video as a tribute to that store which was in business for over 60 years. Perhaps there's no other store in the world that had the selection this store offered.

It's this kind of shop that is one of the main reasons I love living in Japan.

You can walk down the back streets and alleys of any town (which you can do at any time of day because the risk of getting mugged is less than zero) and find all sorts of tiny little shops that look 100 years old run by gray-haired guys who look 120 years old.

And the shops are simply overflowing onto the street with tons of high-quality items of whatever it is they specialize in, offering products from all parts of the world. There are shops that sell only magnifying glasses, shops that sell only drafting equipment, shops that sell only oscilloscopes, shops that sell only knife sharpening stones, shops that sell only LEDs, shops that sell only paint brushes. The list is endless.

It will be a sad day when all these small family-run shops eventually disappear.

 

[eschoendorff]

It's this kind of shop that is one of the main reasons I love living in Japan.

You can walk down the back streets and alleys of any town (which you can do at any time of day because the risk of getting mugged is less than zero) and find all sorts of tiny little shops that look 100 years old run by gray-haired guys who look 120 years old.

And the shops are simply overflowing onto the street with tons of high-quality items of whatever it is they specialize in, offering products from all parts of the world. There are shops that sell only magnifying glasses, shops that sell only drafting equipment, shops that sell only oscilloscopes, shops that sell only knife sharpening stones, shops that sell only LEDs, shops that sell only paint brushes. The list is endless.

It will be a sad day when all these small family-run shops eventually disappear.

It sounds like those shops would be a real treat to visit!

 

[bent0rII]

A store in Osaka, Japan that specialized in importing reputable brands from around the world, many from Europe, closed for good recently. I made a video as a tribute to that store which was in business for over 60 years. Perhaps there's no other store in the world that had the selection this store offered.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4JYshaz14wc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wonderful - thank for the Video!

 

[101% Loko]

Bachert Nut Drivers

 

[tungas123456]

Got some new spanners. Stahlwille open box 14

I like it!!!!

 

[tungas123456]

Hazet 600N compared to Stahlwille Open Box 14.

I'm off work recovering from a minor op and bored of watching tv so this post may be a bit long sorry.

Hazet 600N

Stahlwille Open Box 14

19mm used for this comparison. Both are 'long' pattern for Euro standards but I think considered normal length in the US. Seen here above Stahlwille Open Box 13 and Facom 440. Facom 440 below 19mm are longer than Open box 13 but from 19mm and above they are shorter.

Both spanners have very similar dimensions with the only real difference being the offset on the ring end which will be shown later.

Hazet is about 3mm longer and a little heavier. The difference in weight is not discernable to me when holding a spanner in each hand.

Comparing the open ends. The Hazet has it's signature polished open end with slightly wider cheeks. This looks nice but scratches very easily. The beam and box end are a matte/satin finish. The Stahlwille has the same smooth satin finish all over.

The Hazet (bottom) has a slightly more rounded profile on the open end compared to the more squared off Stahlwille (top). Hazet also tapers towards the tips. My cheap caliper measures the Stahlwille thickness at 7.9mm and the Hazet at 8.5mm down to 8.0mm at the tips.

The slight taper towards the tips on the Hazet can be seen here.

Aligned the beams as close as I could to show the different angles of the open ends.

Comparing the ring (or box) ends. From this angle there is nothing to distinguish between the two. Outside diameters on both the rings measured at 27.3mm so they are approximately the same thickness assuming the inside dimensions are close to being the same.

This angle shows the main difference between the spanners which is the offset and angle of the ring end. The rings themselves measured at approximately the same depth/thickness at 13.4mm. I was surprised by this as the profile on the Hazet (top) makes it appear thinner. Bit of an optical illusion.

Rings flat on the bench to show the difference in angles. Stahlwille (Front) has a deeper offset but shallower angle.

Possible functional differences. These are fabricated situations which I feel may be similar to real world use. Advantages and disadvantages would be more apparent in confined spaces.

Stahlwille does not sit flush when used flipped due to the offset. (eg reaching behind the back of brake calipers.) Hazet in the second image can be used flipped in some situations.

Hazet struggling to clear obstruction from a close by fastener. Stahlwille in the second image clears the obstacles in this situation.

Comparing the beams. The Hazet has a squarer beam profile compared to the rounder Stahlwille. The rounder profile initially feels more comfortable but as you apply more torque it can dig into your hand. The square profile on the Hazet spreads the pressure out a little more so feels more comfortable to me when force is applied.

Also I find that gripping onto the deeper offset ring end on the Stahlwille feels a little awkward when turning a fastener with the open end. This may just be because I'm not familiar with it.

Size marking. The size markings on the the Hazet are clearer and at both ends. Stahlwille has size marked on just the open end.

Fit and finish. Hazet offers arguably more in the looks department with it's Art Deco(?) styling and contrasting chrome finishes but I think Stahlwille took extra effort on the small details.

Stahlwille (back) has cleaner grind/tooling inside the open end.

Flipped to show the other jaw. Stahlwille (front).

Stahlwille (front) finished the join on the ring to the beam cleaner/smoother.

End. This comparison is just some observations. Any negative comments about either brand are just me nitpicking very minor differences between two equally great spanners.

Thank you for sharing

 

[Joao]

if you had to choose one and only one between stahlwille, hazet or facom. What would be your choice?

 

[PaintNBodyGuy]

Here is a tour of my shop and my auto.

 

[driven04]

Holy **** is this a long thread. I started halfway through and I've still got 8000 posts to read through.

I'm an american who lives in southwest germany. I'm hoping to find some used quality tools here at estate sales/etc. There are a huge number of craftsmen in the area I live based on the industry that exists here. I definitely hope to pick up a great vise as well.

No pictures to add at this time, but I was hoping to ask the other german speaking/natives where they try to buy used tools. I haven't been to many flea markets thinking that ebay and kleinanzeigen versions would net me some wins, but I haven't been finding too much. our local newspaper has almost nothing, so just curious if there are other quality resources I should be scouring to find some deals.

Also, I'm a little curious if anyone has used the Stahlwille ratcheting wrenches. I'm curious about the switch location and whether it gets in the way. (the 17/12 set 96411712) I haven't seen any reviews comparing them to sets like the facoms with the more traditional reversing switch.

 

[mr.lemons]

if you had to choose one and only one between stahlwille, hazet or facom. What would be your choice?

Stahlwille but not for any practical reasons. I just like them.

Here is a tour of my shop and my auto.

Good mix of brands in there and nice wagon.

Holy **** is this a long thread. I started halfway through and I've still got 8000 posts to read through.

Welcome. Yeah I started from the beginning a few months ago and I'm only up to the middle of 2015 so far. Monte has posted a few tool finds from German flea markets so they may be an option.

 

[superautobacs]

Welcome. Yeah I started from the beginning a few months ago and I'm only up to the middle of 2015 so far. Monte has posted a few tool finds from German flea markets so they may be an option.

Bingo. Monte posted many times of his flee market finds. I think it was up North though...Bremen.
I don't know if the photos are still there though?



BTW, Mr Lemons, thanks for all the awesome photos/reviews!

 

[beefcake]

Wanted to try out some different screwdrivers, added the Beta hook cuz it was cheap.

Two of the screwdrivers were marked with West Germany which was kind of neat.

And then an USAG 24mm wrench, Facom 57L 10x12mm, Unior water pump pliers, Stahlwille plastic flush cutters and lastly a deep Elora 8mm 1/4 socket. Still waiting for more stuff to arrive.

 

[Dave455]

Wanted to try out some different screwdrivers, added the Beta hook cuz it was cheap.

Two of the screwdrivers were marked with West Germany which was kind of neat..

I really like those green handled Heyco drivers. Hard acetate handles are far more practical than “modern” (i.e. cheaper) soft materials in the real world!

The Wiha drivers with the red square handles are nice too, but I think they are discontinued. Shame.

 

[Jeff]

I'm a big fan of PB Swiss.

 

[NC Rick]

While I have a good number of Snap On specialists wrenches and a few Armstrong’s, most of my wrenches are from Craftsman from the late 50s to late 70s. I am seldom using my SAE wrenches these days and a relitively new (v marked) Craftsman off-set box end wrench 12x14mm made its way into my box and became one of my most used.

A couple weeks ago, I ordered Stahlwille wrenches that are also offset box wrenches. I’m very impressed with the feel and shape. Only time will tell if these are great but I’ll be surprised if they are not. I wish they combined the sizes I use most frequently but I suppose there are some disadvantages to that. I seem to use 8-10, 12-14 and 17-19 most frequently. I did need the 11mm wrench today...

 

[driven04]

re: beefcake Third from the left, is that from Wera?

I was suprised to find Wera wood handled with impactor caps at my local store, and they were reasonably priced (not quite as cheap as wiha) but also felt great in the hand (imo, better than the wiha wood handled drivers). I think it was this set: Schraubendreher-Satz 6-tlg. PH 930/935/6 Wera I hadn't realized wera made them.

They were significantly cheaper than the felo, but felt really nice.

And on the other side also related to Wera, I went to a very small flea market today and saw some old "Weralit" screwdrivers. They had the normal wera handle shape, but out of a red acetate handle. The tips were kind of abused or I would have grabbed them.

 

[acer66]

Hi monte, is wagener from germany?

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Did a quick search but I did not find anything.
While it can be a german company I’ll doubt that the tools
are made in Germany because that would be clearly stated somewhere
on the pouch and/or the tools itself.

 

[beefcake]

re: beefcake Third from the left, is that from Wera?

I was suprised to find Wera wood handled with impactor caps at my local store, and they were reasonably priced (not quite as cheap as wiha) but also felt great in the hand (imo, better than the wiha wood handled drivers). I think it was this set: Schraubendreher-Satz 6-tlg. PH 930/935/6 Wera I hadn't realized wera made them.

They were significantly cheaper than the felo, but felt really nice.

And on the other side also related to Wera, I went to a very small flea market today and saw some old "Weralit" screwdrivers. They had the normal wera handle shape, but out of a red acetate handle. The tips were kind of abused or I would have grabbed them.

No its an Elora but the logo wore off after like 30 seconds, I hope the tip is stronger

 

[Ganymedes]

Stahlwille but not for any practical reasons. I just like them.

To Joao:In my younger years:BELZER,later ,Before Stanley-B&D took over: FACOM, now equally HAZET & STAHLWILLE, 2nd GEDORE


Good mix of brands in there and nice wagon. Yep!



Welcome. Yeah I started from the beginning a few months ago and I'm only up to the middle of 2015 so far. Monte has posted a few tool finds from German flea markets so they may be an option.

To Driven04: It was a hell of a job to read all the postings, but I did: much more difficult than reading Tolkiens´Lord of the rings!