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Tools from the old world

Miskin

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Aug 4, 2012
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575
Location
Athens, Greece
My first Hazet puchase, some "exotic" tools for motorcycle maintenance:
hazet.jpg

Hazet 1/4 400mm extender
Hazet 1/2 470mm breaker bar
Hazet 1/2 32mm deep socket

Got a pretty good feal for these on German Ebay.
The 1/4 extender is for reaching the rear cylinder cam chain tensioner, the breaker bar and deep socket for getting off the front sprocket nut on a DL650.
Can't wait for spring to be here to put them to work.

:evil::evil::evil:
I follow your moves!
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Rusik

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Jan 13, 2011
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Russia
In the time we have 14 car brands in Portugal.But now we only have the Auto-Europe. The best company to manufacture motorcycles and machinery to reap wheat was Pachancho. But now it seems that only industrial components.


Website: http://www.pachancho.pt/web1/zp/tpl1/id1/


My grandfather has a machine to cut the grass Pachanco. It has about 40 years old and works like new. Incredible, made ​​in Portugal.

Alas. We portugal, known as a manufacturer of wine. More than anything, we do not sell.
Now here are the stereotypes :(
 

Blöckw@rt

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Jan 11, 2013
Messages
662
Location
Germany
Socket´s from Alarm.

I think the socket´s are made by Stahlwille, because Alarm is a brand (especially for plumber tools) of the Stahlwille group.
 

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Blöckw@rt

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@nowlan

I unfortunately have to disappoint you, but these sockets cannot be purchased individually, only in combination with a special basin wrench.
 

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CrustyD3mon

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Feb 14, 2010
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176
Location
Portugal / Seixal / Azores
In the time we have 14 car brands in Portugal.But now we only have the Auto-Europe. The best company to manufacture motorcycles and machinery to reap wheat was Pachancho. But now it seems that only industrial components.


Website: http://www.pachancho.pt/web1/zp/tpl1/id1/


My grandfather has a machine to cut the grass Pachanco. It has about 40 years old and works like new. Incredible, made ​​in Portugal.

You can see the Video:


Nice...never eard on this before....:thumbup:
 

CanUK

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May 25, 2012
Messages
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Carolus is ten times more quality stuff

Is it really? By what measure? Have you examined both? Not trying to be a ****, but actually curious if this is a factual statement, or an opinion based on a name.

Both are presumably made in Taiwan. I wouldn't pay €100 for either set, but I wouldn't expect a vast difference between the two. The ratchets actually look remarkably similar (although the photos aren't great).
 

Miskin

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Messages
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Location
Athens, Greece
Is it really? By what measure? Have you examined both? Not trying to be a ****, but actually curious if this is a factual statement, or an opinion based on a name.

Both are presumably made in Taiwan. I wouldn't pay €100 for either set, but I wouldn't expect a vast difference between the two. The ratchets actually look remarkably similar (although the photos aren't great).

For a simple reason. I trust the name GEDORE ten times than the name STANLEY. :)
 

CanUK

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For a simple reason. I trust the name GEDORE ten times than the name STANLEY. :)

That's fair. You're entitled to an opinion of course, but I personally think we should be careful about making statments that sound like fact and without qualifying them.

Otherwise, it starts to sound like another Snap-On thread. This thread in particular has managed to maintain a large degree of objectivity relative to the rest of the forum; a welcome sanctuary :thumbup:

And to be fair - are the Carolus any more "Gedore" than the Stanley are Facom?
 
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Bogdan M.

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That's fair. You're entitled to an opinion of course, but I personally think we should be careful about making statments that sound like fact and without qualifying them.

Otherwise, it starts to sound like another Snap-On thread. This thread in particular has managed to maintain a large degree of objectivity relative to the rest of the forum; a welcome sanctuary :thumbup:

And to be fair - are the Carolus any more "Gedore" than the Stanley are Facom?

Carolus is a lower quality brand.
That is why Carolus tools cost a lot less than Gedore tools.
They are not professional tools and shouldn't be regarded as beeing Gedore products.
There are small exceptions however. Some tools in the Carolus catalogue are the same as the Gedore, for example the strap oil filter wrench.
IMO Carolus is better than Stanley.

I don't like Stanley because it's a big corporation.
Corporations aren't interested in keeping a tradition or a name, they are just interested in profit maximization.
I know people that use in the shop almost only Facom tools and are now very unsatisfied by the recent products.
The lifetime warranty is still there, but the tools need to be replaced a lot more often than before and this means money and stress.
 
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shoturtle

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Jan 15, 2012
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Location
Frankfurt AM
Good find! :D



Ahh, yesss. I watched it four times. :eek:



Monte, I'll call you next time I need a hit-man! :scared:




For sure. :( It's good to support the independents when possible, though. :thumbup:



Ahh, but here's an exception, at least for now. The Lioness (my wife) and I finally picked up the few electrical tools we need from FAMI in Monaco:

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The pliers are all made in France. I have never used (or maybe even seen) Knipex or NWS in person before, but I can happily report that these Facom units work very well and feel very natural in the hands. Someday I would love to try the others, but I feel lucky enough just to have these. :bounce: The hammer is technically called a riveting hammer, and to me is a symbol of all things French. But for all that, I have had difficulty adjusting to the shorter-than-normal distance from the axis of the handle at the head to the striking surface. Perhaps I am the only mechanic in France who perhaps still prefers the German pattern. :lol: Still, this is a beautifully made tool, and I have used it a lot already. :evil: Angoo-ey very happy!!! :thumbup:

DSC05175_zps47315270.jpg


Facom. It's what's for dinner. :beer:

Very nice tools,
 

superautobacs

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Vancouver, BC
Hello friends! I will buy this STANLEY set http://prodavalnik.com/komplekt-gedore-i-vlozhki-stanley-i14511937 and i wanna ask you which is COO of this tools???????

14657785_2_800x600.jpg


COO is mixed. The ratchets should be Taiwan, but the other socketry items might be from China.

I can tell you this: the 1/4" drive screwdriver handle is made in France by BOST--the same place that produces some of Facom's pliers...like the ones Angoo posted.

Those "black chrome" Stanley tool sets are pretty common here in Canada.
The Canadian version of Bauhaus (DIY store) is Canadian Tire, and they sell these Stanley toolsets which often goes on sale for 60~70% off. They will work fine for the DIY'er/weekend wrencher.

The ratchets are pretty good. They were one of the earliest 72-tooth ratchets that became available at the DIY stores. The ratchet head is very compact.

Interestingly, that same ratchet is offered by Canadian Tire under their own house brand: Mastercraft ...it just has a different coloured handle.
They've offered that ratchet for probably close to 10 years now.

In fact, the earliest version introduced to North America (pic below) was called Micro-tough and these were offered at one point by MAC tools (a Stanley company). These ratchets were later offered by other Stanley group companies like Proto and Husky.

Picture borrowed from GJ member: Lump
Ratchetquarterin1.jpg
 

N.I.

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Aug 24, 2012
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Location
Northern Ireland
Carolus is a lower quality brand.
That is why Carolus tools cost a lot less than Gedore tools.
They are not professional tools and shouldn't be regarded as beeing Gedore products.
There are small exceptions however. Some tools in the Carolus catalogue are the same as the Gedore, for example the strap oil filter wrench.
IMO Carolus is better than Stanley.

I don't like Stanley because it's a big corporation.
Corporations aren't interested in keeping a tradition or a name, they are just interested in profit maximization.
I know people that use in the shop almost only Facom tools and are now very unsatisfied by the recent products.
The lifetime warranty is still there, but the tools need to be replaced a lot more often than before and this means money and stress.

I would agree that Facom stuff is touch and go these days, and you have to pick and choose what you are buying from them. If you consider their prices, most of their tools really aren't aimed at the professional market and they seem to be aiming at some niche market inbetween.

I have been disappointed soo many times that I now just tend to avoid the brand altogether.

Their sockets are pure dirt, just far too soft. Try and break a tight 12.9 grade bolt loose and it just mauls the socket. I have heard this from a few people now as well.

I have had circlip pliers that do not remotely line up.

I bought a pair of their digital calipers, hoping that they would be better than the chinese stuff, but didn't want to pay Mitutoyo prices. I kept them as my good pair, they were never dropped or abused. After a while I realised they were 0.07mm out and more recently the reading has started jumping all over the place. ( They are spotless and the battery hase been replaced).

There was a batch of round head ratchets that was released with the direction selecting ring not properly hardened. The teeth on the ratchet very quickly eat into the ring, eventually the ratchet to lock up.

If you are buying Facom, buy from a decent dealer who will stand over your purchase. I have had no luck trying to warrant tools that I have picked up on eBay, or have lost the receipt and have no idea who I bought it from.

However, it is not all bad. Their punches and hammers are good. I love their T5 vise grips and everyone should have a pair of their 980 universal shears. They blow the Bessey type out of the water.

Now back on track. I don't have anything bad to say about the Stanley/ Britools Expert socket sets and would recommend them to anyone. For the price they are fantastic value. I have a 1/4" socket set, the 3/8" deep set and a 1/2" set thrown in the car. The fit is good and I had no problems so far.
They certainly aren't professional quality, but when compared to Gedore, Stahlwille, Hazet or Snap On prices for sockets, they are perfect for sizes that don't get a lot of use.

I have a Draper Expert 1/2" Metric and Af socket set for carrying to different jobs. Yes the sockets have all turned rusty inside, the ratchet is terrible, but they have an excellent fit and are darn strong. For the price they are perfect for losing and can easily be replaced. Certainly would recommend them over the Facom.

Similarly, I have been more than happy with my Carolus purchases to date.

It is far too common on this forum for people to grade and judge tools solely on their appearance and finish. I read it time and time again. If the chome is pitted in the odd place, less lusterous or not perfect inside, sockets are branded as **** and deemed inferior to others. What we need is more torque and hardness tests. Without them, these comments are just opinion and meaningless.

The wrench test turned up some interesting results, and proved that the cheapest of tools can perform surprisingly well (and is notable still a bit of sore point for some of our American friends :D). I bet similar results would be found for plenty of other tools.


:\Minor Rant Over
 

superautobacs

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NI,

It's a bit surprising to hear your thoughts on Facom product quality. Perhaps they need to look for new tool suppliers in Taiwan. Early in a contract, tool suppliers are good on maintaining good QC control, but after a while they may go astray. For the price you pay, I would expect good after-sales relations and ease of warranty.

I've seen some sales flyers from MAC tools offering the Expert series (Britool essentially). ....and I thought they were sourced from the same places in Taiwan that Facom does. :D

BTW, the Facom 980 shears you mentioned are from Taiwan. :)


About tool breakpoint tests:
I look at them for entertainment purposes. It's amusing to see that the cheapest, made in India wrenches match the more expensive wrenches from Germany.
I think people should really be wondering about a fatigue test. When we use our tools we're not intentionally trying to break them are we? Even the cheapest of tools have the hardness tempered into them so that they can withstand a high torque load, but how many times can they cycle at a peak range? I'd like to know how many cycles a wrench can take, loosening and tightening a fastener, at a torque range our hands are capable of producing. We're not popeye, the hulk, superman...you get the point.

A tool can be hard (brittle), soft (malleable), or both. I think the more renowned companies choose the latter option. They do their R&D by coming up with different types of alloys so that they have a product that offers a perfect balance between strength and durability.
 

Miskin

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Messages
575
Location
Athens, Greece
And to be fair - are the Carolus any more "Gedore" than the Stanley are Facom?

Carolus is a brand of Gedore Group. Facom is a brand of Stanley Group, not the opposite. Stanley Tools can't take the "glory" of the Facom Tools just because bought the French company. On the other side Carolus can take some of the "glory" of the mother company because is Gedore creation. Finally from my personal experience (Stanley is very popular in Greece) most Stanley products are chinese very low quality. And they getting worse every year.
 

CanUK

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I've seen some sales flyers from MAC tools offering the Expert series (Britool essentially). ....and I thought they were sourced from the same places in Taiwan that Facom does. :D

I can't speak for MAC tools, but having owned a Britool Expert socket set and spanners, and plenty of Facom, I can definitely say they are not the same (at least those items). Shape/size/design/detail and quality of finish are notably different. The previous generation (pre-Expert) Britool stuff is a lot nicer, but still different from Facom.

I realise that doesn't necessarily mean they don't share some suppliers - just that they're not the same items with a different brand stamped on them.


EDIT: I've posted this before. What the pic doesn't show is just how bad the finish was on the Britool Expert stuff. The older pre-Expert Britool stuff is excellent in comparison.

View media item 21925
 
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CanUK

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Carolus is a brand of Gedore Group. Facom is a brand of Stanley Group, not the opposite. Stanley Tools can't take the "glory" of the Facom Tools just because bought the French company. On the other side Carolus can take some of the "glory" of the mother company because is Gedore creation. Finally from my personal experience (Stanley is very popular in Greece) most Stanley products are chinese very low quality. And they getting worse every year.


Maybe I've misinterpreted the Carolus history, but I don't believe they are a Gedore creation. Started in 1871, and then in "1975 the grand child of Carl Mesenhöller decided to give Carolus a new direction and started with the import of high quality products from Asia. "

So when did the Gedore Group buy Carolus?

I'm not defending either brand, or company, but even Gedore says of Carolus "Carolus supplies economical tools for basic needs", so even they are not trying to imply that you're getting the similar quality to what they list as their premium-label brands.

Interestingly the Gedore Group claims to be "the world’s largest grouping of tool specialists". Regardless of size though, every corporation's primary interest is return for the shareholder. Stanley and the Gedore Group are no different in that respect. Both also source tools from all corners of the world, with quality ranging from mediocre to outstanding.

Anyhow, I just think it's a mistake to blindly follow or disparage a brand (or a COO). Better to leave that to the Snap-On guys. Simply stating that the Carolus set is 10x better than the Stanley set questioned, without any supporting information, is not particularly helpful. Compare it to the post by Superautobacs that actually tells us something about the tools in question.

No offence intended btw :beer:
 

CanUK

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I can tell you this: the 1/4" drive screwdriver handle is made in France by BOST--the same place that produces some of Facom's pliers...like the ones Angoo posted.

The BOST drivers are also sold under the Britool brand. I'm told by another GJ member that they're excellent, but I can get Wiha sets on sale for less money, so I haven't tried them myself.

Those "black chrome" Stanley tool sets are pretty common here in Canada.

I get the CT flyer emailed weekly and I cringe every time I see the black chrome stuff.


Interestingly, that same ratchet is offered by Canadian Tire under their own house brand: Mastercraft ...it just has a different coloured handle.
They've offered that ratchet for probably close to 10 years now.

Also worth pointing out that many Mastercraft tools are very well regarded in Canada, even amongst professional users (those that aren't truck-brand snobs anyhow).
 

Van Steele

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Jul 8, 2012
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Norfolk, UK
However, it is not all bad. Their punches and hammers are good. I love their T5 vise grips and everyone should have a pair of their 980 universal shears. They blow the Bessey type out of the water.

My experience with the 980 shears has been quite different. I use them - exclusively - to cut PET-strap and the three I used didn't last too long. They went blunt in no time and the cutting edges were nicked quite easily.
The Beta I had before outlasted the three Facom ones combined.
 

Miskin

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Maybe I've misinterpreted the Carolus history, but I don't believe they are a Gedore creation. Started in 1871, and then in "1975 the grand child of Carl Mesenhöller decided to give Carolus a new direction and started with the import of high quality products from Asia. "

So when did the Gedore Group buy Carolus?

I'm not defending either brand, or company, but even Gedore says of Carolus "Carolus supplies economical tools for basic needs", so even they are not trying to imply that you're getting the similar quality to what they list as their premium-label brands.

Interestingly the Gedore Group claims to be "the world’s largest grouping of tool specialists". Regardless of size though, every corporation's primary interest is return for the shareholder. Stanley and the Gedore Group are no different in that respect. Both also source tools from all corners of the world, with quality ranging from mediocre to outstanding.

Anyhow, I just think it's a mistake to blindly follow or disparage a brand (or a COO). Better to leave that to the Snap-On guys. Simply stating that the Carolus set is 10x better than the Stanley set questioned, without any supporting information, is not particularly helpful. Compare it to the post by Superautobacs that actually tells us something about the tools in question.

No offence intended btw :beer:

I´m not the GEDORE guy of GJ! I own few gedore tools. But we have too many brands in my work. Unior, Facom, Gedore, Hazet, Metabo, Usag, Asahi, even some snapon and Williams. Also IUS, Izeltas and of course some Stanley. IMHO Stanley have no place there in the workshop. Maybe is ok for DIY. Not for make money. Even Izeltas and the IUS or Force are better from Stanley. I do not work with Carolus, but how crappy can be? I heard some good words from people who use them. But you ´re right. 10 times better without working with them is exaggeration. I will purchase some Carolus and i will make a descend test between Carolus and Stanley that match mine and yours expectations. lol
 

CanUK

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I´m not the GEDORE guy of GJ!

No, I think that's definitely still Monte :)


I will purchase some Carolus and i will make a descend test between Carolus and Stanley that match mine and yours expectations. lol

Now that is dedication! :thumbup: :beer:

My guess is that across the range (for each) - some will be good, some will be ok, and some will be disappointing.
 

Phog Allen

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Feb 7, 2009
Messages
83
No, sorry.


Here you go. Measurements are in cm.
347wuao.jpg

I admit to fairly lusting for one of those PB Swiss ratcheting driver handles for the C6/E6 bits. I had originally thought about the 225 series handle and the 1/4 in square drive, and C6 ratchet insert mechanisms as way to cover most of the bases but quickly realised the 225 selection is more limited than the C6 bits and the handles all seem to have the ninety degree joint in them which I find almost useless in a screwdriver and makes the handle a bit unwieldy to me. One of the pictured handles and the one for 1/4 in. square drive would cover almost everything you need in a portable driver system.
 

CanUK

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May 25, 2012
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Ahh, but here's an exception, at least for now. The Lioness (my wife) and I finally picked up the few electrical tools we need from FAMI in Monaco

Great pics! I have the same hammers, but with the composite handle. I haven't used them yet (I seem to have quite few hammers), but wondered about the notched shape -whether it has a specific purpose, or if it's just to achieve particular balance.

View media item 23788
Facom. It's what's for dinner. :beer:

The soup looks pretty good as well. :drool:
 

N.I.

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Aug 24, 2012
Messages
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Location
Northern Ireland
NI,

BTW, the Facom 980 shears you mentioned are from Taiwan. :)


I am well aware that Facom rebrands them and I could have guessed that they were made in Taiwan, but it makes no difference as they are excellent. I wasn't having a go at COO.

NI,

About tool breakpoint tests:
I look at them for entertainment purposes. It's amusing to see that the cheapest, made in India wrenches match the more expensive wrenches from Germany.
I think people should really be wondering about a fatigue test. When we use our tools we're not intentionally trying to break them are we? Even the cheapest of tools have the hardness tempered into them so that they can withstand a high torque load, but how many times can they cycle at a peak range? I'd like to know how many cycles a wrench can take, loosening and tightening a fastener, at a torque range our hands are capable of producing. We're not popeye, the hulk, superman...you get the point.

You do raise an interesting point. I have always wondered how much fatigue actually comes into play with tools. Fatigue can be anything from a few thousand to millions of cycles, depending on conditions and loading. But what is it for general tools such as sockets and wrenches?

I am sure we have all heard stories about people snapping an old used Snap On breaker bar and then getting a cheapy one and then breaking the same nut loose without any trouble.


NI,

A tool can be hard (brittle), soft (malleable), or both. I think the more renowned companies choose the latter option. They do their R&D by coming up with different types of alloys so that they have a product that offers a perfect balance between strength and durability.

Yes Metallurgy is a fascinating subject, and it becomes very complicated beyond the simple phase diagrams when you start dealing all the various alloying ellements.
Chinese taps, dies and drill bits are the perfect example of using cheap high carbon steel. It can easily be quenched to make them hard. But with limited (if any) tempering, they are as brittle as could be, and the cheap steel blunts in no time.

Taking sockets as an example. If one factory in Taiwan produces sockets for a a number of companies, I would love to know how these companies go about ordering the sockets. Do they specify their own steel and tempering process, or is it only a matter of choosing the shape of the socket, the degree of polishing and the stamp to go on them?
 

Alx

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Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
134
Location
England
Their sockets are pure dirt, just far too soft. Try and break a tight 12.9 grade bolt loose and it just mauls the socket. I have heard this from a few people now as well.

I've only got one Facom socket set - 1/2" Long Torx, XZN, Inhex - and bought it new on ebay mostly because it was heavily discounted @ £80 for the whole set of 12 pcs. I used XZN bit a few times to take apart and re-assemble 6-7 alloy wheels. These were not multi-piece wheels - just the studs, screwed in and locktited - so no much pressure on the tool.

The XZN bit held very well - no deformation or damage but the socket at the bottom... whole other story. It basically looks like I've had it on an impact gun a lot when I've only used it manually. Very soft steel. I never had a chance to try out the other bits but I won't be surprised if they deform under what can be described as only mild pressure.

The sockets are stamped in France btw, which was another selling point for me. They are not too bad and still have lots of life in them but it was such a contrast to Hazet sockets I had used on suspension and brakes with long breaker bar. I even hit the bar with hammer a few times and not a sign on the socket!

Not a dig at Facom or Facom fans, just an observation. I will still buy new old stock Facom stuff in a heart beat if I come across any.
 
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