Tools from the old world

[CanUK]

Minor defects always exist.
I repair german cars for a living.
Most people that complain about a german car didn't buy the car new but sh.
A 150 000 miles car has nothing to do with a new car.
German cars are a lot more abused than other european cars because of their engines and performances.

Other countries are capable of quality workmanship, but real life shows that products made in third world countries by low skilled labour are not of similar quality with german made products.

That's all well and good, but statistically, as a whole, German cars suffer higher than average failures during the first few years of their life (Consumer Reports and other independant sources). This is not about an old second hand car bought by someone relating their tales of woe, but by actual numbers of repairs required.

It's not isolated to German driving conditions either when comparing cars within a certain market to other cars within that same market. I believe I've read that most German marques sell the majority of their product outside of Germany anyhow.

Do you really think an expensive new BMW or Merc driven by a their typical customer (middle-aged business person if I had to guess), generally sees more abuse than a cheap, high-revving Honda owned by an over-excited teenager?

 

[CanUK]

Business-end of one of my Habero pin punches. Most of the set is like this to some degree. An no, it's not "broken" -this is how it was new. This particular punch hasn't seen any use at at all:

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[Jure]

Business-end of one of my Habero pin punches. Most of the set is like this to some degree. An no, it's not "broken" -this is how it was new. This particular punch hasn't seen any use at at all:

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wow! raw...

 

[Alx]

Minor defects always exist.
I repair german cars for a living.
Most people that complain about a german car didn't buy the car new but sh.
A 150 000 miles car has nothing to do with a new car.
German cars are a lot more abused than other european cars because of their engines and performances.

Other countries are capable of quality workmanship, but real life shows that products made in third world countries by low skilled labour are not of similar quality with german made products.

Over the years I've bought both new and used cars form a particular German brand that I'm addicted to and they are by no means reliable. Ironically, I supercharged one of my N/A cars and it was flawless throughout the ownership. My recent car from the same brand is pretty standard, however it's nothing but a money pit. I still love them all the same as they are fun to drive and no money can measure that

 

[Jure]

btw worst german wrenches i own are Rahsol double box lol,speaking of finish...

 

[CanUK]

btw worst german wrenches i own are Rahsol double box lol,speaking of finish...

Go on, post a pic

 

[Bogdan M.]

CanUK & Alx:
The reliability is a big issue nowadays.
German cars, especially BMW, because that is what I repair most of the time, are not very reliable, but this is also because they tend to be very complex and have a lot of things that other cars don't have.
A car with more electronics is bound to have more problems than a simpler car.
Better handling, better performance and other things like that have their cost.

 

[CanUK]

CanUK & Alx:
The reliability is a big issue nowadays.
German cars, especially BMW, because that is what I repair most of the time, are not very reliable, but this is also because they tend to be very complex and have a lot of things that other cars don't have.
A car with more electronics is bound to have more problems than a simpler car.
Better handling, better performance and other things like that have their cost.

I believe that, but also, my own experience (with VW - and not performance models) reveals a string of failures that had little to do with cutting edge innovation; failed heater core (what a mess! and an entire weekend to strip out and replace the dash), broken seat slides, electric sunroof (VW dealer tried to suggest mis-use?!), side windows suddenly falling into the door, electrical problems including bad grounds, cheap brittle wire and failing sensors, trim breaking, falling off or showing unexpected wear.

I eventually named the car "Hitler's Revenge" if that says anything about my ownership experience

 

[Jure]

Go on, post a pic

 

[CanUK]

...Rahsol pics...

Wow definitely some corners being cut there. Are the rings off-centre or is it just the photo? I'm guessing they're still in the box to be sold on?

I have a couple of offset Gedore spanners that are loads nicer. Older, andI bought them from the car-boot, so I don't know whether or not they're still the same. Top of the pic (bottom is a King ****). Ignore the blue paint:

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[Jure]

Wow definitely some corners being cut there. Are the rings off-centre or is it just the photo? I'm guessing they're still in the box to be sold on?

I have a couple of offset Gedore spanners that are loads nicer. Older, andI bought them from the car-boot, so I don't know whether or not they're still the same. Top of the pic (bottom is a King ****). Ignore the blue paint:

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lol your gedore looks much much better then my brand new rahsol lol,all rings are off centre,small wrenches are even slightly bent,corners are raw,yep they are still in the original box,never used since i got unior box end set,and rahsols were the gift,i'm glad that i have never paid for them lol keep in mind that i only took a pic of 13mm and 27,there are some wrenches which are even worse...at last i can pray that they used same forging and same quality steel as gedore's steel

 

[CanUK]

lol your gedore looks much much better then my brand new rahsol lol,all rings are off centre,small wrenches are even slightly bent,corners are raw,yep they are still in the original box,never used since i got unior box end set,and rahsols were the gift,i'm glad that i have never paid for them lol keep in mind that i only took a pic of 13mm and 27,there are some wrenches which are even worse...at last i can pray that they used same forging and same quality steel as gedore's steel

I did see some Unior combination spanners in person in the tool shop yesterday. They seemed nice. They were very light, and quite thin; I did wonder how they'd fare under very heavy use, but they looked and felt like they'd be nice to use for fine work or confined space.

This is the only Unior tool I own - came with my Husaberg tool kit. I'm not sure if they're implying that I should be drinking either beer, or Coke from old bottles while out riding:

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[Jure]

I did see some Unior combination spanners in person in the tool shop yesterday. They seemed nice. They were very light, and quite thin; I did wonder how they'd fare under very heavy use, but they looked and felt like they'd be nice to use for fine work or confined space.

This is the only Unior tool I own - came with my Husaberg tool kit. I'm not sure if they're implying that I should be drinking either beer, or Coke from old bottles while out riding:

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hahah i like that bottle oppener,pretty sure that they are giving some boppeners with ktm as well,yep i like unior double box,flare nut,but man i just hate their combo's,they are well made,decent finish and all,but they are so thin lol,i have never tried to put a max torq on a open end lol box end will be good even with a cheater pipe...but i will never try it with the open end lol,and unior combo's were not always thin like that,old unior made in 80's had thick profile,cant find the cobo one,but i have found open end,you can see how thick it was,btw thick serie was marked "extra"

 

[shoturtle]

You might not have seen them (bad products from Germany), but they do exist. I've listed a few above. Alx has mentioned issues with his Hazet stuff - minor perhaps but still not what you'd expect from a premium German brand.

Look at their cars as well. Lovely to look at, lovely to drive, but below-average reliability on the whole.

I'm not sure why you think that other countries are not capable of quality workmanship. Just because several are exploited for cheap labour does not mean the talent, knowlege, and history don't exist. Conversely it's not like the Germans are an infallible master race

remember any 3 series bmw is made in the US, most VW sold in North America are made in Mexico. And all the X series BMW and M Series MB are made in the US. And giving readability between US made Ford I used to own a mustang GT or my wife's VW which is made in Germany. The VW is way nicer and way better made. But my SHO with the yamaha engine was a work horse.

Have you ever own a E Class MB, the dam things are rock solid cars. Yes the older C class about 7 years ago were pretty crappy. But that can be said for the majority of the GM line up of cars.

But with your punch set, I would have return them the first time I used them. I do not believe in holding on to **** tools. There are way to many options out there. If it does not preform as you expect form day one, go with a different brand.

Also there are warnings form all the major german brand to be on the look out for counterfeits of there tools that are way lower quality. Even snap on has had counterfeit issues.

 

[Miskin]

IUS vs GARANT ( maybe rebranded Stahlwiile?)
View media item 27960I use these 2 wrenches (No 8) about 3-4 years now to regulate Testaco
View media item 27961I use them together only for the particular job
The difference in quality is evident
View media item 27968The IUS is on the top, bottom is Garant
View media item 27967Let's measure the open with a caliper
Garant
View media item 27963IUS
View media item 27962It is obvious the wear of IUS
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View media item 27965Garant is like new
View media item 27964What I want to say with this comparison is that there are tools for professional use and tools for DIY. Usually the first ones is more expensive, but worth the money. Now i have to replace the IUS...

 

[N.I.]

Sorry, but I really don't see much wrong with them.

The first thing I look at is the broaching. From your photos the broaching is nice and clean, with no daft bevels above or below the ring.

I like the speckled chrome, there are a few minor indentations due to the forging. But how does this affect the functioning of the tool? Get them dirty and you will not notice any of this.

They are a cheaper brand, and you have to understand is that one of the ways they cut costs is to polish them less. For most people this is a non issue, as long as the steel quality has not been skimped on. If you want polish and glare, go Snap On, but you will pay for it.

Please send them my way .

 

[N.I.]

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The King **** is a joke. How can they expect to compete in the professional market with a product like that?

 

[CanUK]

remember any 3 series bmw is made in the US, most VW sold in North America are made in Mexico. And all the X series BMW and M Series MB are made in the US. And giving readability between US made Ford I used to own a mustang GT or my wife's VW which is made in Germany. The VW is way nicer and way better made. But my SHO with the yamaha engine was a work horse.

Have you ever own a E Class MB, the dam things are rock solid cars. Yes the older C class about 7 years ago were pretty crappy. But that can be said for the majority of the GM line up of cars.

But with your punch set, I would have return them the first time I used them. I do not believe in holding on to **** tools. There are way to many options out there. If it does not preform as you expect form day one, go with a different brand.

Also there are warns form all the major german brand to be on the look out for counterfeits of there tools that are way lower quality. Even snap on has had counterfeit issues.

In my case my VW had a German-made VIN code. I suppose we should be careful though about steering the conversation too far away from tools

The punches - I bought from the Gedore UK dealer, so no question about authenticity. I did complain, and they offered to refund me if I sent them back, or to send me other merchandise. I took the merchandise, figuring I could probably file these into a flat and useable shape. As it happens I bought a nice Facom 7pc set on sale for £22 before I got around to fixing these.

 

[CanUK]

The King **** is a joke. How can they expect to compete in the professional market with a product like that?

Yeah I was disappointed with them. I bought them used, so I have no idea how old they actually are. I haven't seen many King **** tools, but figured I'd give it a shot based on the brand's reputation.

Here are my KD t-handled nut spinners. These were purchased new from a reputable tool dealer. They (the dealer) have great customer service and probably would have taken them back without any trouble, but I was lazy, and couldn't otherwise find a reasonably-priced replacement. These are not marked "Made in England":

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[shoturtle]

Believe it or not I have gotten a counterfeit bag form crumpler form an authorized deal. Some not so honest distributor mixed in real with fakes. And counterfeits have also shown up at stores like macy's. As counterfeits are an issue.

But with your punch, it was a dud set, that happens. Every brand has defective tools getting pass QC. I know some US made williams industrial that got pass qc, and were delivered to one of our job sites. I had to call out industrial supplier to bring out a replacement ASAP.

 

[CanUK]

And here's a close up of the standard of finish on the KD spanners:

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[CanUK]

I believe the spirit of this forum is to CELEBRATE those differences, rather than ridicule them.

Well said. This thread in particular has been informative, tolerant and open minded.

You fail to recognize that my wife's willingness to share the tool passion is nothing more than a celebration of a happy shared life together, and has nothing to do with bragging, as you have stated.

I am a bit envious of your wife's support in tool appreciation. Mine thinks I'm nuts. If you ever want to see a real "Lioness" -pop around my place when a parcel of tools shows up in the mail while my wife is home; you'll hear the roars from a mile away I can only assume you refer to yours as a Lioness like calling a fat guy "Slim" or a bald guy "Curly". Otherwise, if it's anything ***** - I don't wanna know

And as much as mine complains about new tools, there are no complaints when I maintain her car, or sort out household problems and projects free of charge

 

[shoturtle]

CanUK,

That is said, my wife lets me get the tools I need and want. If it is quality, she is okay with me spending more money on them. I actually decide on when to get a lower grade tool base on how often I use it.

Now with power tools, my wife always said get the bosch blue or metabo. She tells me I do not use them professionally for woodworking so no fein or festool.

Personally I have nothing against stanley. Their proto line is excellent, and I have not seen much change with facom stuff.

 

[CanUK]

...My German tools include Gedore, Elora, Habero, Stahlwille, Dowidat, Format, Metabo and probably a few more that I've forgotten about...

Wiha! I don't know how I forgot that as I have a drawer full of their screwdrivers and I think they're brilliant. The handles (for me at least) offer much better grip than my Facoms.

I have some Wera drivers as well (VDE) - they're ok, but not as impressive. The fancy laser "etching" grips well, but mostly came off after the first use. Glad I didn't pay a lot.

 

[CanUK]

CanUK,

That is said, my wife lets me get the tools I need and want. If it is quality, she is okay with me spending more money on them. I actually decide on when to get a lower grade tool base on how often I use it.

Now with power tools, my wife always said get the bosch blue or metabo. She tells me I do not use them professionally for woodworking so no fein or festool.

Personally I have nothing against stanley. Their proto line is excellent, and I have not seen much change with facom stuff.

I'm exaggerating some about how upset mine gets. She does think I'm a bit nuts, but there are worse things to spend money on; I don't smoke, don't spend much money on clothes, and haven't drank since my son turned one -so could be worse

The other day though she finally spotted my beautiful Meddings pillar drill in the garage.

She came back in the house and said "Is that pillar drill new?!!!"

I said "No, it's from 1964."

To be fair though, she didn't protest when I bought my brand new Lista cabinet, or the Beta stack before that.

 

[Jure]

Sorry, but I really don't see much wrong with them.

The first thing I look at is the broaching. From your photos the broaching is nice and clean, with no daft bevels above or below the ring.

I like the speckled chrome, there are a few minor indentations due to the forging. But how does this affect the functioning of the tool? Get them dirty and you will not notice any of this.

They are a cheaper brand, and you have to understand is that one of the ways they cut costs is to polish them less. For most people this is a non issue, as long as the steel quality has not been skimped on. If you want polish and glare, go Snap On, but you will pay for it.

Please send them my way .

i know that all,and i dont really care if they are raw finished since they were free,never been a fan of mirror finish. but man all rings are off centre,what about that?

 

[TjoFrasse]

I thought a while about if I should post or not, but here we go...

I have not enjoyed reading the last pages as I use to (except for free Felo driver, thanks Monte!). There was a lot of pointless bickering, blanket statements without foundation and what I can only see as intentional misunderstandings to ridicule each other. This thread has been free from that for over 600 pages, can't we try to keep it that way?

I have tools from all over the world, but I like trying to get tools with European COO. Not because I think they're better in quality automatically, but because I feel pride in my collection. That's all COO is for me. I don't think anything can be said of a tool just from its COO. I just like the thought of having tools made here. I'm very happy with many of my Taiwanese tools still, and even with some China made tools. You can't always afford what you want, and there is often good quality to be found at lower prices also.

Just because someone other says they're not happy with a product does not mean that my satisfaction with that product should change. I'm still happy with my Wera, even though I have read some here that were not satisfied.

I'm still happy with my German Gedore ratcheting wrenches, even though the finish is not perfect (grinding marks). The function is not compromised due to that.

My Taiwan Facom sealed heads are my favorite ratchets, while my Taiwan Bahco are among my least favorite. That shows how little COO has to do with it.

I'm all for discussion our experiences with different brands, that's a great aspect of a forum. Just let us do it better. Let me try that by answering the original question about the Stanley set:

I'm a bit skeptical to the black finish of those. Is it a powder coat? Will it last as good as chrome? I'm no Stanley fan, but apart from that I think they're good DIY quality (without having first hand experience). For €100 I would not see them as a good deal, but if you can't wait until you find a bargain they should be ok.

PS.

Regarding the car thing, I have to say COO is as unimportant there. I would not compare a Opel (Vauxhall for you britts) toa a Mercedes. I have owned German made VWs and Fords, French made Citroëns, Swedish Volvos and Saabs, a Czechz Skoda and a Japanese Honda. All have had their good and bad sides. All manufacturers try too save money and come up with smart solutions, and all sometimes fail. And all production lines have bad days. All brands have their bad models also.

I like German cars, and love the ones I have and have had. But that is not the same as I'm saying they were flawless or anything like that.

 

[shoturtle]

Well said Tjo,

There is way to many coo fights on other parts of this forum. This is the only thread that has been relatively free with COO craze members. Lets keep try to keep it that way.

Thanks

 

[shoturtle]

Angoo,

You do have some really nice tools. I hope you will post more of your tools one day.

Shoturtle

 

[TjoFrasse]

Well said. This thread in particular has been informative, tolerant and open minded.

Exactly that! Let us have some nuance in the discussion, just not black and white... Let us try to keep that in the Harbor Freight, Snap on Kool-aid and Craftsman COO threads.

 

[CanUK]

While VWs are certainly designed in Germany, it's entirely likely that your car was manufactured and assembled in Mexico. Putting blame on German craftsmanship because of a failed window regulator isn't necessarily accurate either.

No, mine was definitely German-made. You can tell from the VIN number; it reveals where it was made as well as other interesting information. Google "VIN Decoder" for your particular make of car, and have some fun. Not really furthering this thread though so I'll leave it at that.

 

[CanUK]

But I'm going to sit out now as a participant and just read.

I hope not! I was going to nominate your pics from Monaco as most-lustful photos of the month! I don't do shopping, but I could spend hours staring in that window

 

[purpurite]

Ok, let me redirect this thread completely...

As stupid 'mericans, it's almost assumed that we are mispronouncing the names of all foreign company names. Can any of you English-speaking Euros help us with the correct pronunciation of some of the major brands we are talking about regularly in here?

For instance, I just found out that Knipex is actually pronounced "ka nip ex" and not "nip ex." Duh. Oh sure, how could I get that wrong?

So how about it... what's the native language proper way to say names like Stahlwille, Hazet, Wira, Wiha and others?

 

[Alx]

Ok, let me redirect this thread completely...

As stupid 'mericans, it's almost assumed that we are mispronouncing the names of all foreign company names. Can any of you English-speaking Euros help us with the correct pronunciation of some of the major brands we are talking about regularly in here?

For instance, I just found out that Knipex is actually pronounced "ka nip ex" and not "nip ex." Duh. Oh sure, how could I get that wrong?

So how about it... what's the native language proper way to say names like Stahlwille, Hazet, Wira, Wiha and others?

Here you go. I hope that author - Monte - won't mind me reposting it:

 

[Mitkoasd]

Hello guys! What do you think about ''Athlet" tools, Germany? Because i'll buy some screwdrivers and hexagonal wrenches from them. Please for you opinion.

 

[Blöckw@rt]

A few of my hard-working German wrenches.

 

[Miskin]

Hello guys! What do you think about ''Athlet" tools, Germany? Because i'll buy some screwdrivers and hexagonal wrenches from them. Please for you opinion.

Ok let's get back to tools
I think Monte said that Athlet and Wuro is the same brand - or something like that.
I have a pair of insulated Wuro and i like them very much. I think this time you make a good choice!
View media item 27969Sorry for the crappy pics
View media item 27970

 

[shoturtle]

Ok, let me redirect this thread completely...

As stupid 'mericans, it's almost assumed that we are mispronouncing the names of all foreign company names. Can any of you English-speaking Euros help us with the correct pronunciation of some of the major brands we are talking about regularly in here?

For instance, I just found out that Knipex is actually pronounced "ka nip ex" and not "nip ex." Duh. Oh sure, how could I get that wrong?

So how about it... what's the native language proper way to say names like Stahlwille, Hazet, Wira, Wiha and others?

wera is actually pronounce Vera. The W is a V sound in German.

 

[Monte]

Hello,

I am from Bosnia. One question for Monte: please tell me more about mob/peddinhaus/ius tools. Are they quality for DIY use, country of origin etc.

Bosnians are big fans of german technology, so we try to get some of german made tools, but we earn about 500 euro for month and we can't spend for example 200 euro on Hazet socket set.

Thanks

MOB is a french company. Their hammers used to be german made and are still sold under the german "Peddinghaus" name here in the german language countries. I can´t say much about the rest of the MOB tools (Made in Romania ? (and some from Taiwan etc...)) because they are virtually non existent basically. Only the hammers are available which seem to be good. The tools do look nice though, not much different from german and other tools.

Is it the delivery free?

yes it is

I just ordered my free Felo catalog. Did you have to pay shipping or did they foot the bill the whole way?

Do you guys know if the Knipex catalog is also free? I didn't see any mentioning of it on their site. It should be some good reading material during breaks at work.

http://www.knipex.com/en/contact-service/order-your-own-catalogue/

catalogs are free of charge

Hey! 'Borrowing' a good tip? ;-)

And yes, it's completly FREE for everyone inside Europe!

Who also got an email from Jorg Oestreich?

yeah sorry had to borrow it for this thread

but man all rings are off centre,what about that?

to reach in tight corners

Hello guys! What do you think about ''Athlet" tools, Germany? Because i'll buy some screwdrivers and hexagonal wrenches from them. Please for you opinion.

i don´t own any of their tools but they can´t be that bad i guess since they seem to make the screwdrivers for NWS, VBW, WGB, Matador and others too i guess


in a bit set test they made the 1st place:

http://www.athlet-online.de/index.p...s/Sonderdruck Selbst ist der Mann 2009-02.pdf

A few of my hard-working German wrenches.

nice collection

Ok let's get back to tools
I think Monte said that Athlet and Wuro is the same brand - or something like that.

Wuro is the manufacturer, Athlet is their brand
www.wuro.de
www.athlet-online.de

 

[Mitkoasd]

Thank you guys. A what you can say about ORBIS? - http://prodavalnik.com/kleschi-i15483441 this all are just 5 euro??