Tools from the old world

[Puch]

I wanted to add a little to the conversation by posting up some photos of a tool kit I carry in my Steyr Puch Haflinger. The kit was originally curated by the Swiss Army for use in their fleet of Pinzgauers. This one is was put together in about 1983. Enjoy!

All rolled up:

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PB Swiss screw drivers, COO Swiss:

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Selection of HEYCO open end wrenches, COO Germany

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500G Engineers hammer. No COO, However makers mark, I assume Swiss origin. What do you think?

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Elora pliers/Wire cutters, COO Germany

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Heyco Tube wrench, COO Germany

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Dowidat adjustable end wrench, COO Germany

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Heyco, and unbranded ring spanner, both COO Germany

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Misc goodies: Utility wire, brush, tight clearance adapter for grease gun, Messko (COO Swiss) air pressure gauge, "Ernst" tin of electrical tape, oil can spout...

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[superautobacs]

And those factors, ergonomics and price and warranty / service are going to be different for everyone and everyplace. The simple fact is that all top tier tools are all about as good as each other with individual brands being the best at something or other but never an entire range. Also you will pay a lot extra for the relatively little extra quality compared to the 2nd tier, which nowadays is mostly the good and often ridiculously cheap good Taiwan made house brands, smaller rebranding tool CO's. Tools at that price level have never been so good or easily available.
The top tier only exists because there are enough of us out there that want the prestige of having the best. You don't really need it (in most cases).

That's about as good of an explanation anyone can write in a concise manner.
It's worth two


Regarding sockets...I want to chime in and put a plug in for Nepros. Their socketry items are top-tier in terms of durability in both metalurgy and surface finish, along with their ergonomics and fastener-friendly drive profiles.

 

[HCNDM]

Hi HCNMD,



Koken has no knurling either! Hazet and Gedore are best on knurling from what I have seen.



What exactly do you mean when referring to "broaching"?



Ans since yuo referred to Gedore how they compare lets say to Stahlwille, Hazet, Snapon.



I am thinking to buy some more sockets but not sure what



Thanks!

With broaching I refer to the fit and cut of the drive end and the 6/12 point end. Tolerances on all those I mentioned are pretty good. Best on gedore and snap on. Least on tekton. Good broaching makes for a solid feeling fit.

Gedore is snap on quality imo and so is hazet. Stahlwille probably a tad less but not noticeable.

There are big differences in design and chrome though. Gedore does occasionally make their stuff bulkier than the competition for instance.

All that is personal preference though, and makes no difference in quality and very little difference in use of tool.


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[jessysirazvan]

Hey guys, what do you think about facom sockets? Where are they made and how they hold against the USA and German made?

Thanks

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One thing that is very important for me is inner tolerance of socket.I know that all manufacturers comply with the norm DIN but from my own experience I can say that Stahlwille socket are by far the most perfect socket i own and i see in term of tolerance.Facom i don't now how perform in term of tolerance,but you can check it with a caliper if you have the posibility

 

[jessysirazvan]

OLFA SCS-2 scissor

after oiled

 

[HCNDM]

One thing that is very important for me is inner tolerance of socket.I know that all manufacturers comply with the norm DIN but from my own experience I can say that Stahlwille socket are by far the most perfect socket i own and i see in term of tolerance.Facom i don't now how perform in term of tolerance,but you can check it with a caliper if you have the posibility

I did that just now. I either need better eyes, or a better caliper, or I need to raise my standards. It's much of a muchness between facom and stahlwille and gedore.

I would say I was wrong in my previous statement that stahlwille is less than facom. If anything the 13 stahlwille and gedore are spot on and the facom just a hair (CH) larger. The drive broaching on the facom is a little tighter but then that socket has seen less use than the stahlwille so that might be the cause.

3/8 sockets here. So there is perhaps a measurable difference even if I don't notice much of it in use. I tend to grab the gedore or stahlwille snap on sockets on new hardware and the facom or tekton or bahco on things with surface rust or wear.

I'm trying to figure out whether this is because they feel better for each application or because the latter are still in blow mold cases which are easier to haul out of the shop where I'll encounter rusted used hardware. I don't have a shop large enough to hold a car so most work on the car is done outside.

Gut feeling says it's location and portability over quality of tool.



My facom ratchets are the round head non quick release. I really really like them!


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[aag14V]

My sockets set, and Torque wrench TONA 3/4"

Torque wrench TONA 3/4"


Unior 1" 46 - 80


TANG (Tvornica Alata Nova Gradiška) 3/4" 22 - 50 - very quality tool, like a Unior


NEO TOOLS 3/4" 22 - 50


Unior 1/2" 10 - 32


Wurth (FACOM) 1/2" 10 - 34


Hazet 1/2" 10 - 32


Sandvik Belzer 1/2" 10 - 30 with imbus


Faust 1/2" 10-32


Proxxon 3/8" 6-22


LUX tools profi 1/4", Dowidat 1/4", Carl Walter 1/4"

 

[dutchgray]

Regarding sockets...I want to chime in and put a plug in for Nepros. Their socketry items are top-tier in terms of durability in both metalurgy and surface finish, along with their ergonomics and fastener-friendly drive profiles.

I haven't any Nepros sockets but if they follow the quality of the long DBE wrenches or the ratchet I have they ought to be very good. Nepros chrome is certainly one of the best out there, if you preference is for high polish.

 

[dutchgray]

aag14V
Nice sets.
Particularly the Sandvik Belzer, I have a 1/2" Inbus set in the metal box that I picked up used for sensible money, they are really good tools, plus a fair few 1952 pattern wrenches.

 

[jessysirazvan]

Only thing I forgot to mention about facom sockets is a lack of defined knurling.

It's personal I suppose but I do like knurling.

Must get some koken at some point.


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Agree same on Stahlwille or maybe worse,knurling on stahlwille seems to be more decorative than useful

 

[aag14V]

Faust socket looks like "shi...", but its indestructible...
Proxxon, NEO tools is very good.

And the other brands is high professional tools... Belzer, Facom, Hazet....

I have a lot tools, constantly buy professional tools ...

 

[gabrorlandi]

Facom 3/8 are Taiwan if current production, but they are as good as anything short of the very, very best. They have good design (undercut bases), they fit well on the square drive and the fastener, and they are stiif with proper hardness (so they have decent feel).

Facom is by far the best value of the true top-tier tool companies. It ***** that they are no longer FRA but they do show that there is multiple tiers of quality coming out of taiwan (and the good stuff is quite good, mind you).

As far as other brands, Hazet has the best knurling of any sockets. This matters the most in 1/4, but there is no question Hazet sockets are amongst the best at any price. Snap on is also probably slighty better than Facom by a small margin, and the service of snap on is really another variable that may or may not add extra value.

I would say unless you are looking for absolute performance--and yes you can buy a extra couple of ticks if you ar OK to pay the absolute highest prices to get that extra benefit -- facom is a worth choice for a shortlist of chrome sockets (especially in 3/8 drive).

Keep in mind that Hazet and Snap on at street prices are not cheap (new or used) and usually the most expensive in their respective markets. And thats really what you have to step up to in order to get any noticeble quality improvement.

Other than that, the rest of the factors are really about personal preferences and budget. Other competitors in the general price/quaity vacinity seem to be Proto (USA) and Koken (JP). As well as Stahlwille (GER) as you are probably aware. You might also score some vintage Facom or Belzer/Bahco (coo Germany), which are both shiny chrome but very high class tools. Modern Bahco is Taiwan and almost certainly a notch below Facom quality.

If you are on some kind of budget, I would not hesitate to go Facom. Especially in 3/8 regulars. You can still splurge on snap on or Hazet in other variations or drive sizes if you like and where the perfomance upgrades will stand out more. [emoji106]

You're right. Facom (France) and Facom (Taiwan ) almost the same.

I have 3/8 Sockets, Snao On and Proto (SAE), Facom and Bahco (metric). Facom (France) and Bahco (Argentina), and both in the same league.

Bahco (Taiwan) is a lower quality, for S-Line Sockets. A cheapest Line.

I don't know why Facom stop manufacturing CDX sockets. In compact size those are awsome

 

[dutchgray]

I Have a CDX set, should probably buy the extra bits I always wanted but never got while they can still be found. Its good stuff but I always felt there was too much rotational slop in the drive system. Proprietary drive systems don't take off, there is always something that you need to go back to the square drive for.

 

[gabrorlandi]

I Have a CDX set, should probably buy the extra bits I always wanted but never got while they can still be found. Its good stuff but I always felt there was too much rotational slop in the drive system. Proprietary drive systems don't take off, there is always something that you need to go back to the square drive for.

I think that's why have both!

 

[jessysirazvan]

The best torque wrench in the world is this "shi...."6€ electronic balance(for poor mans)

I make an example


Suppose we must tighten a M10 bolt with 30nm and a 17 wrench.Length of wrench suppose are 30cm 1kg/m=9.81nm so for 30nm we need for 30nm:9.81nm=3.05kg/m.But our wrench are 30cm and not 1m so must convert length of wrench(100cm:30cm)=3.33.So the force that we need to tighten with 30nm with a 30cm length wrench is 3.05×3.33=10.16kg with my "shi.. " 6 euro electronic balance.
Hang the wrench with electronic balance and pull!!
Atention when pull the wrench the angle between the wrench and the balance must be always 90 degrees

 

[pozidriv]

Does it click? (rather creak, I guess)

I hope Adam 'torque nazi' C. reads this, he's bound to have a heart attack.

Nice sets aag14V! A lot of 1" and 3/4" stuff, do you work on heavy equipment?

'New' hammer

Best silicone profile tool I've used:

For €15 I couldn't resist:

 

[superautobacs]

For €15 I couldn't resist:

You ****! Nice score! I have a couple hex keys and I was surprised on how well they fit on the torx fasteners.

I haven't any Nepros sockets but if they follow the quality of the long DBE wrenches or the ratchet I have they ought to be very good. Nepros chrome is certainly one of the best out there, if you preference is for high polish.

If anyone has OCD for high polish, mirror-like finishes, then Nepros is the answer. They need not look any further.

 

[MACLOBO]

Just picked these up. Very essential tools. One is Picard and the other Stahlwille.


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[hautpot]

If anyone has OCD for high polish, mirror-like finishes, then Nepros is the answer. They need not look any further.

I love Nepros. I recall looking at the broaching of the Nepros Spanners and sockets and comparing to the Snap-On next it and it was cut cleaner. But The Snap-On Dual 80 series ratchets beat the Nepros 90 tooth in my book. The Screwdrivers were AWESOME as well.

 

[HCNDM]

I love Nepros. I recall looking at the broaching of the Nepros Spanners and sockets and comparing to the Snap-On next it and it was cut cleaner. But The Snap-On Dual 80 series ratchets beat the Nepros 90 tooth in my book. The Screwdrivers were AWESOME as well.

That's some shiny perfection there. I reckon it's hrs to beat the dual 80's though a few come close.

Personally I like my round heads best.


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[Monte]

another Osram workshop light:

 

[PavelK313]

Just received them in the mail.
Have one question. Do Hazet tools not have Made In Germany stamped on them?

 

[M6erfan]

Just received them in the mail.
Have one question. Do Hazet tools not have Made In Germany stamped on them?

All my Hazet wrenches/sockets are stamped "Germany". Those ratcheting wrenches have the ratcheting mechanism outsourced from Taiwan, so maybe that's why Hazet didn't stamp them with "Germany"

 

[tonyciambrone]

My sockets set, and

Wow....awesome. I might be slightly jealous

 

[losvre]

That's some shiny perfection there. I reckon it's hrs to beat the dual 80's though a few come close.

Personally I like my round heads best.


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Which round heads?

 

[HCNDM]

Which round heads?

Mostly in general. If I have a PH and an RH out I will grab the RH.

I will grab either of these before the dual 80:

Gedore 3063 series or facom j16x or j15x.

I just like em. I have some older cheaper roundheads too like a Stanley and a few from the big box stores. These are are overall not bad either. And certainly much better than any cheap pearhead I have ever owned.

I also don't wrench for a living. That means the bulk of what I work on is either easily accessible or I can take the time. This means the advantages or a QR PH reversible ratchet are less important for me. Letting focus more on how it feels. How it clicks, the backdrag etc.


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[kiraj]

 

[jessysirazvan]

another Osram workshop light:

Monte what model is this lamp?

 

[Lofthouse]

Monte what model is this lamp?

Osram Dulux Worklight 24W

 

[Monte]

Monte what model is this lamp?

What Lofthouse said
You can look up the OEM too: Sonlux
(Sonlux Gladiator).
Other companies rebrand this light too: Varta, Mennekes, Hilti, Würth...
Other german made workshop lights: Hedi, Rohrlux










Norton cutting disc

 

[jessysirazvan]

thank you guys

 

[jensputzier]

All my Hazet wrenches/sockets are stamped "Germany". Those ratcheting wrenches have the ratcheting mechanism outsourced from Taiwan, so maybe that's why Hazet didn't stamp them with "Germany"

As far as I know the ratcheting mechanism is patented and manufactured by a Taiwanese company. But I can assure that the wrench itself as well as it's ratcheting mechanism is on par with Hazet's own production. I use them myself all the time.

 

[sljeme345]

My sockets set, and Torque wrench TONA 3/4"

Torque wrench TONA 3/4"


Unior 1" 46 - 80


TANG (Tvornica Alata Nova Gradiška) 3/4" 22 - 50 - very quality tool, like a Unior

NEO TOOLS 3/4" 22 - 50


Unior 1/2" 10 - 32


Wurth (FACOM) 1/2" 10 - 34


Hazet 1/2" 10 - 32


Sandvik Belzer 1/2" 10 - 30 with imbus


Faust 1/2" 10-32


Proxxon 3/8" 6-22


LUX tools profi 1/4", Dowidat 1/4", Carl Walter 1/4"

Very nice sets

Especially Sandvik Belezer 1/2"

 

[losvre]

I did that just now. I either need better eyes, or a better caliper, or I need to raise my standards. It's much of a muchness between facom and stahlwille and gedore.

I would say I was wrong in my previous statement that stahlwille is less than facom. If anything the 13 stahlwille and gedore are spot on and the facom just a hair (CH) larger. The drive broaching on the facom is a little tighter but then that socket has seen less use than the stahlwille so that might be the cause.

3/8 sockets here. So there is perhaps a measurable difference even if I don't notice much of it in use. I tend to grab the gedore or stahlwille snap on sockets on new hardware and the facom or tekton or bahco on things with surface rust or wear.

I'm trying to figure out whether this is because they feel better for each application or because the latter are still in blow mold cases which are easier to haul out of the shop where I'll encounter rusted used hardware. I don't have a shop large enough to hold a car so most work on the car is done outside.

Gut feeling says it's location and portability over quality of tool.



My facom ratchets are the round head non quick release. I really really like them!


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Once I had the opportunity to check the tolerances of Gedore, Stahlwille and Gazette by fitment on a new and never used bolt head.

I did not have my digital caliper with me and although not so scientific I think that Stahlwille and Hazet are almost identical with very tight tolerances and Gedore follows.

Now with regards to strength we broke one 3/8 19 mm Stahlwille by trying to undo the 19 mm wheel bolt of his Volvo. We placed a small extension around 300 mm and he pushed with his foot on it but without stepping on the extension.

The socket broke but it did not deform which means that it is very hard material and not very tough. that might good as by not deforming it may preserve the bolt but it means when you get to the limit it will pop.

Bearing in mind Stahlwille has a lower wall thickness of 0.3 mm and 0.4 mm compared to Hazet and Gedore respectively, it could take less stress but without knowing exact material and without comparative tests it would be difficult to compare.

Not sure though why Stahlwille has chosen to have thinner sockets and how a max 0.4 mm would make a difference in tight spots in real life; I have never had this problem with any sockets.

With regards to knurling I think that Gedore might be even better than Hazet but I did not enough time to test this out cause the shop was closing for the day[emoji12]

I did that just now. I either need better eyes, or a better caliper, or I need to raise my standards. It's much of a muchness between facom and stahlwille and gedore.

I would say I was wrong in my previous statement that stahlwille is less than facom. If anything the 13 stahlwille and gedore are spot on and the facom just a hair (CH) larger. The drive broaching on the facom is a little tighter but then that socket has seen less use than the stahlwille so that might be the cause.

3/8 sockets here. So there is perhaps a measurable difference even if I don't notice much of it in use. I tend to grab the gedore or stahlwille snap on sockets on new hardware and the facom or tekton or bahco on things with surface rust or wear.

I'm trying to figure out whether this is because they feel better for each application or because the latter are still in blow mold cases which are easier to haul out of the shop where I'll encounter rusted used hardware. I don't have a shop large enough to hold a car so most work on the car is done outside.

Gut feeling says it's location and portability over quality of tool.



My facom ratchets are the round head non quick release. I really really like them!


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[losvre]

I did that just now. I either need better eyes, or a better caliper, or I need to raise my standards. It's much of a muchness between facom and stahlwille and gedore.

I would say I was wrong in my previous statement that stahlwille is less than facom. If anything the 13 stahlwille and gedore are spot on and the facom just a hair (CH) larger. The drive broaching on the facom is a little tighter but then that socket has seen less use than the stahlwille so that might be the cause.

3/8 sockets here. So there is perhaps a measurable difference even if I don't notice much of it in use. I tend to grab the gedore or stahlwille snap on sockets on new hardware and the facom or tekton or bahco on things with surface rust or wear.

I'm trying to figure out whether this is because they feel better for each application or because the latter are still in blow mold cases which are easier to haul out of the shop where I'll encounter rusted used hardware. I don't have a shop large enough to hold a car so most work on the car is done outside.

Gut feeling says it's location and portability over quality of tool.



My facom ratchets are the round head non quick release. I really really like them!


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I forgot to say that I have the Facom 3/8 J.171 QR and I like it however 2 points here.

1. The QR does not work! and Monte can confirm this. I am thinking to fit a larger bearing ball if it is possible to dismantle the mechanism.

2. The Gedore 3093 and Stahlwille 435 QRN might actually have less backdrag.

It seems very robust though.

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[M6erfan]

I forgot to say that I have the Facom 3/8 J.171 QR and I like it however 2 points here.

1. The QR does not work! and Monte can confirm this. I am thinking to fit a larger bearing ball if it is possible to dismantle the mechanism.

Interesting. I have an SJ.171 and the quick release works just fine...

 

[losvre]

Interesting. I have an SJ.171 and the quick release works just fine...

Have you tried to pull it apart by applying lots of force? I thought that mine was ok until I was experimenting with some different sockets and ratchets.

It is actually quite difficult to pull it apart, depending how strong someone is[emoji4]

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[M6erfan]

Have you tried to pull it apart by applying lots of force? I thought that mine was ok until I was experimenting with some different sockets and ratchets.

It is actually quite difficult to pull it apart, depending how strong someone is[emoji4]

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Yep...tried with all my might. Then I added SJ.210R locking extension with socket, it's not coming apart on either end! Note that this is a CDX set...

 

[losvre]

Yep...tried with all my might. Then I added SJ.210R locking extension with socket, it's not coming apart on either end! Note that this is a CDX set...

Oh ok then, CDX does not have this problem.



Can you use CDX ratchet directly to normal sockets or only with adapters?



Thanks

 

[chrissalas1]

I forgot to say that I have the Facom 3/8 J.171 QR and I like it however 2 points here.

1. The QR does not work! and Monte can confirm this. I am thinking to fit a larger bearing ball if it is possible to dismantle the mechanism.

2. The Gedore 3093 and Stahlwille 435 QRN might actually have less backdrag.

It seems very robust though.

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I have the facom j.174 and it has the same problem with yours.