Tools from the old world

[potato79]

Hello. I have a old wrench marked Zerem D.R.G.M.. I would like to learm more about it if someone knows some of the history behind this tool, i dont seem to find something clear about it.

 

[JBH]

got an order from KTC.

precision bit set from wiha

I bought one of these as a gift, too. (That arrived, barely on time Half of my KC Tool BF order - fortunately household stuff - has shipped but is caught in the Dejoy Vortex.)

It looks like they’ve moved precision bits to Vietnam. The Vietnamese stuff seems to usually have printed rather than stamped size markers.

Maybe that’s why the set can be sold so inexpensively now, compared to previously. If the bits end up being as good or better, killer deal.

 

[marlinspike]

Is the only old-world brand making crow-foot (as opposed to crow-ring) sockets Stahlwille?

 

[FastJ]

Is the only old-world brand making crow-foot (as opposed to crow-ring) sockets Stahlwille?

Facom and Elora makes but I don't know what the coo is on those.

 

[TjoFrasse]

Hello. I have a old wrench marked Zerem D.R.G.M.. I would like to learm more about it if someone knows some of the history behind this tool, i dont seem to find something clear about it.

Don't know what you have found, but there is some info earlier in this thread: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=804926&postcount=1655

 

[Dave455]

Is the only old-world brand making crow-foot (as opposed to crow-ring) sockets Stahlwille?

Is a crow foot wrench, as opposed to a socket, any use to you?

Gedore make some. I’ve used them and they seem quite decent!

 

[mr.lemons]

Wiha to make a multi bit driver in the US?

Posted on toolguyd Dec 7. I see at least one familiar name in the replies so maybe already posted here.

Feel a bit jealous that Wiha seem to be prioritising the US over Europe these days.

https://toolguyd.com/wiha-screwdrivers-made-usa-122020/

 

[marlinspike]

Is a crow foot wrench, as opposed to a socket, any use to you?

Gedore make some. I’ve used them and they seem quite decent!

No, as I need them to work with a torque wrench. I ended up ordering some Stahlwille.

 

[blarf]

The Stahlwille fairy paid me a visit on Sunday. The next time I have to pull the transmission or one of the axles I will be prepared.

 

[measuredtwice]

Wiha to make a multi bit driver in the US?

Posted on toolguyd Dec 7. I see at least one familiar name in the replies so maybe already posted here.

Feel a bit jealous that Wiha seem to be prioritising the US over Europe these days.

https://toolguyd.com/wiha-screwdrivers-made-usa-122020/

Interesting. I don't recall previously seeing any products from Wiha that are made in the USA. (Edit: Found some! Here are some other made in USA products: https://www.wihatools.com/wiha-features/made-in-america ) It's also the first x-in-1 driver that I've seen from a European manufacturer.

I'll likely buy one when they become available. I wonder how the price will compare to the $10-15 (depending on 6 or 11 in one) Klein USA and Ideal USA drivers or the $20-30 Snap-On USA.

 

[measuredtwice]

You can buy now from Wiha!!!! Also, I just asked KC Tool and they will be getting them in stock but Wiha hasn't given them an estimate on when to expect them. KC Tool has 10% off for the forum and free shipping over $50.

https://www.wihatools.com/multidrivers

6inOne Multi-Driver
SPECIAL PRICE $14.98
Regular Price $15.96

11inOne Multi-Driver
SPECIAL PRICE $17.98
Regular Price $19.96

Conduit Reamer Multi-Driver
SPECIAL PRICE $29.98
Regular Price $32.96

Google search located a 15% off coupon code "BUILDNBROS". Just tested it and it works.

If you know a better coupon, please post it.

Free shipping over $100 before coupon (so $85 or more after coupon). Otherwise shipping is $6.99 for 1 driver shipped UPS Ground.

 

[mr.lemons]

Very strange seeing a Wiha handle with 'USA' on the flats.

Just been looking at Bondhus as they are speculated to be making the Wiha drivers, and see they have 'ballgrip' drivers that look a lot like Vessel, but are made in Germany.

'BallGrip is a trademark of Bondhus Corporation'

https://3989ac5bcbe1edfc864a-0a7f10...Intl/literature/91464_BETZ_BALLGRIP_FLYER.pdf

+ a range of German (Felo?) made screwdrivers.

https://3989ac5bcbe1edfc864a-0a7f10...og/Bondhus_Betz_ScrewdriverCatalog_Edited.pdf

 

[measuredtwice]

The Bondhus BallGrip certainly looks like Vessel Japan. Even the orange and red colors for - and + match. ...and many of the markings match too.

The yellow and black Bondhus Germay drivers are widely available for cheap.... around $12 for a set of 5 that includes a magnetic bit holder handle. I hadn't previously seen the other Bondhus Germany drivers.

 

[JBH]

Wiha to make a multi bit driver in the US?

Posted on toolguyd Dec 7. I see at least one familiar name in the replies so maybe already posted here.

Feel a bit jealous that Wiha seem to be prioritising the US over Europe these days.

https://toolguyd.com/wiha-screwdrivers-made-usa-122020/

I wouldn't be. Wiha USA's new stuff seems to be derivative, duplicative, and incoherent.

The main thing to note with the new multi drivers is now they have five separate full-sized hex-shank bit formats.

1) System 6/Drive Loc VI (6mm long, usually double-ended)
2) normal (1/4" hex, single-ended international detent placement)
3) Ultradriver (1/4" hex, double-ended, proprietary detent placement that only works in Ultradrivers and Wiha/Festool Centrotec bitholders
4 & 5) new short and long ball detent things for the new US x-in-1 line.

I don't mind Ultradriver because (a) they're good bits; (b) to be double-ended they needed a symmetrical detent; and (c) they offer replacement bits in pretty much every size offered in 1/4" hex bits at very reasonable pricing. They do need a ratchet (or clutch like their old Topra) in the line but otherwise they're great if you need to have a lot of bit styles in a single comfortable handle. It may not be the best thing, but it might be the perfect kitchen drawer screwdriver.

I guess the new incompatible bit formats probably exist because they're putting their lipstick on a domestic factory's OEM design. However, from a product integration and synergy standpoint wouldn't it have made much more sense for them to integrate the new x-in-1 stuff into their existing Ultradriver line, and redesign the new nutdrivers to work with their existing bit platform?

That said, they are inexpensive, so I guess if someone's looking for one of those why not? I think the Ideal 21-in-1, with a good-enough ratchet, Santoprene (i.e. "Swissgrip") inserts, Romex-bending hook, and surprisingly useful wire nut driver on the back end, is a more complete tool.
https://www.idealind.com/shop/35-688.html

But if you like Wiha's handle and color scheme, sure, whatever.

 

[Vidar Wulff]

Bondhus bought the german company Heinrich Betz,a company that made screwdrivers for other tool brands,and also selling under their own brand "Sora".

 

[measuredtwice]

Bondhus bought the german company Heinrich Betz,a company that made screwdrivers for other tool brands,and also selling under their own brand "Sora".

I wouldn't be. Wiha USA's new stuff seems to be derivative, duplicative, and incoherent.

The main thing to note with the new multi drivers is now they have five separate full-sized hex-shank bit formats.

1) System 6/Drive Loc VI (6mm long, usually double-ended)
2) normal (1/4" hex, single-ended international detent placement)
3) Ultradriver (1/4" hex, double-ended, proprietary detent placement that only works in Ultradrivers and Wiha/Festool Centrotec bitholders
4 & 5) new short and long ball detent things for the new US x-in-1 line.

I don't mind Ultradriver because (a) they're good bits; (b) to be double-ended they needed a symmetrical detent; and (c) they offer replacement bits in pretty much every size offered in 1/4" hex bits at very reasonable pricing. They do need a ratchet (or clutch like their old Topra) in the line but otherwise they're great if you need to have a lot of bit styles in a single comfortable handle. It may not be the best thing, but it might be the perfect kitchen drawer screwdriver.

I guess the new incompatible bit formats probably exist because they're putting their lipstick on a domestic factory's OEM design. However, from a product integration and synergy standpoint wouldn't it have made much more sense for them to integrate the new x-in-1 stuff into their existing Ultradriver line, and redesign the new nutdrivers to work with their existing bit platform?

That said, they are inexpensive, so I guess if someone's looking for one of those why not? I think the Ideal 21-in-1, with a good-enough ratchet, Santoprene (i.e. "Swissgrip") inserts, Romex-bending hook, and surprisingly useful wire nut driver on the back end, is a more complete tool.
https://www.idealind.com/shop/35-688.html

But if you like Wiha's handle and color scheme, sure, whatever.

x-in-1 drivers are so standard that the parts can be exchanged between brands. To me, that's much more useful than proprietary parts. That's one reason that I didn't buy the Ultra driver.

1" insert bits are even more standardized. And Wiha makes one that houses standard bits in the handle (perhaps copying MegaPro?). But the handle looks like it has the ergonomics of a Red Bull can. In contrast, the x-in-1 drivers store the bits in the shaft and the handles can be more like a typical screwdriver handle. The trade off is the shaft is thicker but if you need more reach then you can buy a Klein with longer bits.

Here's a photo comparing the MegaPro and a Klein (with normal bits, not the long bits). I couldn't find a comparison with the UltraDriver. The photo (from Stuart/toolguyd) was the first hit on my Google search.

I don't think the new x-in-1 drivers are intended to be revolutionary. They're just adding a popular and common tool to their own catalog. I think most folks probably have a few from other brands. The x-in-1 drivers have been around for a long time. Iirc the 4 in One Screwdriver company popularized the pattern in the 70s and the original patent is even older.

Sometimes gizmos sell stuff but it doesn't always make a better tool. Drop an UltraDriver from a ladder and you might break the latch that holds the bit compartment. In contrast the x-in-1 is so simple that not much can go wrong. But I do usually favor the 6 in 1 over the 11 in 1 since the 6 in 1 usually holds the bits more securely. Not much will break though. And if necessary, you can swap parts between many brands.

Wiha is basically putting their own handle on an x-in-1. Similarly Felo and Vessel put their handles on import ratchets.

I can't tell from the photos but it looks like the handle may just be a tube like the handle on the Ultra driver. I would have preferred the shape used on their normal screwdrivers... or a triangular shape like Witte.

 

[mr.lemons]

I think Beta has updated their combination spanner design. Maybe inspired by Facom.

Old

New

https://www.beta-tools.com/sincro/data/in/DataSheet/Pdf/42NEW_en.pdf

Bondhus bought the german company Heinrich Betz,a company that made screwdrivers for other tool brands,and also selling under their own brand "Sora".

 

[JBH]

x-in-1 drivers are so standard that the parts can be exchanged between brands.

Maybe, we'll see.

I don't think the new x-in-1 drivers are intended to be revolutionary.

Obviously not. Wiha's current US strategy seems to be introduce lowest common denominator "local taste" tools instead of maintaining a high level of design excellence and show people how better tools can improve their experience. We'll see if that works out for them as a business decision.

As for Ultradriver, I think you're missing the point a little. They're not designed to be daily workhorses for professionals. They're very useful casual tools that fit a lot of different bit sizes in a compact package. For professionals, one could be useful as a supplement for rarely-used fastener types, such as random security bits. For everyone else they're great for a kitchen drawer, car glovebox, etc. See my next post for more on those.

Similarly Felo and Vessel put their handles on import ratchets.

I don't know if that's true for Felo, though it could be.

 

[JBH]

Like many of us, most of my BF purchases were thoroughly DeJoy’ed. The last order, shipped “2 day Priority” by KC Tool, in early December, arrived today. Fortunately administrative competence in logistics and other matters is just a few weeks away…



First up, completing the PB Swiss slotted lineup, Philips bits, and clearance precision drivers (1.5mm hex and PH1). I don’t think PB Swiss honestly has many advantages except in slotted and ratcheting screwdrivers, but in those categories they’re a step ahead. The bits are solely to replace PH bits in a few sets, because of the unique color. The idea is visually distinct PH and PZ bits.



View media item 108989


The 1.5mm hex (clearance at Tool Lady) is 1.5mm all through the shaft, considerably less robust than Wera. But maybe if there’s a recessed tiny screw PB Swiss will be better.



View media item 108990


Other rando: Excelta-brand cable shears. These showed up in my eBay feed and looked interesting. The chrome is nearly Nepros quality.



View media item 108991


They’re more compact than the otherwise best-of-breed Orbis EvoShark (here as rebranded by Phoenix Contact):

View media item 108992
Overall quite a nice tool, but if you want cheap cable shears the $10 Italian “dog nail clippers” from Amazon et al. are the best value.



KC Tool shipment #1: Wera VDE blades, Cobra XS, Felo slotted woody (to complete the set), Wiha “Big Deal” precision set, Wera hex and ASSY bits.

View media item 109327


KC Tool shipment #2: Stubby Wiha Ultradrivers, Wera compact ESD handle. (Also Facom PH/SL screwdriver for terminals.)

View media item 109337

I’ve mentioned Ultradriver stubby before. A full-sized Ultradriver and a stubby let you hold every bit type and have two functional handles that can be used with almost any fastener (including security bits) in almost no space. They are great for kitchen drawers or car tool kits, which is exactly where I use them.



Wera blades are for this set, which had no square drive (it’s from the EU, so it included PZ-slotted blades instead that are useless here, as is the voltage tester for the most part). (I thought about buying a 2nd handle to replace the voltage tester, but didn’t.) I went with the cheap PH2 instead of slim because that’s a workhorse, and it was much cheaper. The regular one will work on most screws, and the expensive slim blade can be reserved for recessed screw.s

View media item 109328


I bought the Wiha “Big Deal” precision set as a gift for a local kid who’s into robotics, but I was curious so I took a peek. Looks like many of the bits are now Vietnamese instead of German. Wiha typically stamps sizing on their German bits, but sizing on the Vietnamese ones are almost all printed.

View media item 109329


While bit COO is just an observation, Wiha’s failure to recut the foam for the new handle is a disappointment. It’s clearly still cut for their older ESD handle, and doesn’t fit the new one. How expensive could that bit of attention to detail possibly be?

Miscut foam:

View media item 109331
Old handle in “Big Deal” kit:

View media item 109330


I was hoping Knipex Cobra XS would be one of KC Tool’s BF specials, but that was not to be this year. Still the 20% discount was nice.

View media item 109332


Handle is beautiful, though not the most comfortable.

View media item 109333


Jaws are much thinner than 125mm Cobra, which can be very useful.

View media item 109334


Wera bits above are for the Bosch case I bought with the new brushless Flexiclck 12V drill/driver. Bosch’s set inexplicably had no hex bits. Also I like to use Würth ASSY screws for DIY projects (so people can’t mess with them) so I added Wera’s “SIT” ASSY bits as well.

View media item 109335


Wera ESD handle was picked up for an “Easter Egg” set. It still fits the case, even when loaded with a Wiha 1/4-to-4mm hex adapter.

View media item 109346


Also picked up another Bosch/Sortimo L-BOXX dolly at the $20 off $100 sale.

View media item 109336

 

[dede2897234]

The Stahlwille fairy paid me a visit on Sunday. The next time I have to pull the transmission or one of the axles I will be prepared.

Hi blarf,

What is the part # for that Stahlwille universal locking extension?


Thanks,

Dave

 

[measuredtwice]

Maybe, we'll see.



Obviously not. Wiha's current US strategy seems to be introduce lowest common denominator "local taste" tools instead of maintaining a high level of design excellence and show people how better tools can improve their experience. We'll see if that works out for them as a business decision.

As for Ultradriver, I think you're missing the point a little. They're not designed to be daily workhorses for professionals. They're very useful casual tools that fit a lot of different bit sizes in a compact package. For professionals, one could be useful as a supplement for rarely-used fastener types, such as random security bits. For everyone else they're great for a kitchen drawer, car glovebox, etc. See my next post for more on those.



I don't know if that's true for Felo, though it could be.

Copying another manufacturer’s design is not really a “high level of design excellence”. The pop up drivers seem to copy USA/Canada MegaPro.

And the quality of some tools has gone down. The current production bits and pliers from Vietnam are not as good as the old German bits and German/Swedish pliers. They’ve also put their name on a bunch of cheapo mechanics tools made overseas. And they've affiliated their name with a Chinese manufacture that sells low quality soft bits in an artsy package.

Their full size and precision screwdrivers are good. A few of their bits might still be made in Germany… or maybe they’re just old stock.

Wiha certainly doesn’t market the Ultradriver as unsuitable for professional use—haha. The ad copy is “professional quality” and “rugged industrial design”. I think they'd rather be known as the company that makes professional tools, not the company that makes toys that people who rarely use tools will throw in their kitchen drawer.

In my previous post I said, “Sometimes gizmos sell stuff but it doesn't always make a better tool.” I recognize that consumers like toys but consumers often make poor decisions. If you rarely use a screwdriver, you don’t need to spend $30 on screwdrivers. But if you you are going to drop $30 on screwdrivers, you could get professional tools for that money. If you just want a play thing, sure a pop up screwdriver is more fun.

I think the x-in-1 is a good addition to Wiha’s catalog. It likely won’t sell as well as toys with bells and whistles. But the x in 1 pattern has been widely used for decades by tradesmen for good reason. It's a good tool to have in their catalog.

 

[potato79]

TjoFrasse - Thanks a lot mate for the help, yes i read that post, scarce info though...

 

[username2]

You can buy now from Wiha!!!! Also, I just asked KC Tool and they will be getting them in stock but Wiha hasn't given them an estimate on when to expect them. KC Tool has 10% off for the forum and free shipping over $50.

I see they're on Amazon for $20

Clever idea storing bits in the blade. I wish they had hid a 1/4" square drive in the thing somewhere.

 

[mr.lemons]

JBH. What do you think about the Stahlwille fastgrip compared to Cobras? Do you have a preference? I've been looking out for a good deal on them for a long time.

 

[Mr MoAiZo]

JBH. What do you think about the Stahlwille fastgrip compared to Cobras? Do you have a preference? I've been looking out for a good deal on them for a long time.

Go for the NWS QuattroGrip pliers - I do find their teeth the best on the market by far.
I have two pairs, one chromed version 49 and one black phosphated version 12. Go with the twelve 1661-12-250.

Do have the Stahlwille Fastgrip as well (made by VBW, part of Stahlwille group) and several Knipex Cobras and Alligator but do find the NWS better.

 

[measuredtwice]

I see they're on Amazon for $20

Clever idea storing bits in the blade. I wish they had hid a 1/4" square drive in the thing somewhere.

Thanks for the info. They also have the 6 in 1 for around $16 with free shipping.

 

[JBH]

JBH. What do you think about the Stahlwille fastgrip compared to Cobras? Do you have a preference? I've been looking out for a good deal on them for a long time.

I prefer Stahlwille/VBW, because I find the front yoke better balanced. Same applies to Powergrip over PW.

If they had the same size range as Cobra I probably wouldn’t own any Cobras.

 

[cheechi]

Wera ESD handle was picked up for an “Easter Egg” set. It still fits the case, even when loaded with a Wiha 1/4-to-4mm hex adapter.

I did the same with my easter egg kit. I also took out the pozi bits and put in a 1/4 to 4mm (though while it's out of stock the 75802 is also good, i have both but the 75902 fits better in that kit) and a 5mm nut set bit rounds out the kit for my needs. That easter egg is probably Wera's best kit since the 2018 advent.

Re: USA made Wiha n-in-1 driver
I have one. It's neither great nor terrible. It's just a standard n-in-1 with the flip shank and then flip hex within. I don't love the design generally. it has its place but it's like a swiss army knife in that you'd rather have it than nothing. As such I haven't used it i just tossed it to the side along with the others that share that design.

It's different if you pack the Wiha 26-in-1, or the Megapro (including the Klein 15 in 1 HVAC & Channellock ratcheting), lot of bit storage for the price of one vertical pocket in a bag, especially if you don't have room for the typical plastic box of bits.

re: German made Bondhus screwdrivers
almost definitely made by Felo. I have some, they are ok. will probably sit in the drawer. Got them cheap enough and nobody local sells them but I wanted to feel the handles. to be honest, there isn't anything wrong with them but wouldn't recommend for daily use they just aren't as good as the hundred other options available.

 

[mr.lemons]

Go for the NWS QuattroGrip

GTR put me off the NWS due to them slipping on metal pipe. I would like to try them myself though.

I prefer Stahlwille/VBW, because I find the front yoke better balanced. Same applies to Powergrip over PW.

If they had the same size range as Cobra I probably wouldn’t own any Cobras.

They will be mine some day.

Lone Star Mopars just posted a vid on the US Wiha drivers. 35mins long

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fcjBVZL6w9Y" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[measuredtwice]

With Youtube reviews, I just look at the preview window that pops up when you hover the pointer over the slider and move across the time line until I see something I want to see.

Looks like the proportions of the handle are pretty much the same as the pop up drivers even though the x in 1 doesn't require as much space for bit storage. He briefly waved a Channellock but I didn't see any side by side comparisons with others.

Saw on the box that it is made with global materials. The Klein is as well now... not sure if the manufacturing actually changed or if the rules for COO just became more strict.

 

[Dave455]

Saw on the box that it is made with global materials. The Klein is as well now... not sure if the manufacturing actually changed or if the rules for COO just became more strict.

I think a lot of these “x” in 1 drivers use Taiwanese bits. The small Klein one certainly does, so I wonder if Wiha have just followed the herd?

Wiha seem to be suffering from corporate laziness of late. A lot of their range seems to have been quietly dropped, and more and more of what’s left seems to be outsourced to the Far East.

 

[mr.lemons]

Another hammer + Wiha pz3 impact bits.



Sort of a rough finish with visible tooling marks. I know it's a hammer, so it does not need to be pretty, just commenting on what I see.







No surprises, hammer made in Germany, bits from Vietnam.

 

[measuredtwice]

Interesting, Dave455.

The rolls for precision drivers are one thing that improved when production moved to Vietnam. I bought a few when it was the "Tool of the day" and they are much better than the old $4 ones. Several times the price though.

 

[GrantCee]

Another hammer

That's interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a hammer with hardened edges and corners like that. What's the benefit over the non-hardened versions Gedore makes?

 

[Dave455]

Interesting, Dave455.

The rolls for precision drivers are one thing that improved when production moved to Vietnam. I bought a few when it was the "Tool of the day" and they are much better than the old $4 ones. Several times the price though.

I’m probably spoilt by my PB Swiss and Facom Micro Tech in that regard!

I have a few of the older Wiha precision drivers and they seem to be quite good. They were never the equal of the Swiss and French though.

 

[Dave455]

Another hammer + Wiha pz3 impact bits.



Sort of a rough finish with visible tooling marks. I know it's a hammer, so it does not need to be pretty, just commenting on what I see.

I have a couple of the older Habero “Rotband Plus” hammers and they are a little bit smoother than that, and also painted, but in other aspects identical.

Good hammers. I quite like the style as I sometimes need to bash rivets or pins in corners, and the square head works well.

They are all hardened, but I suspect the hardening is more visible on the unpainted heads.

Habero used to make a range of plastic and rubber covers thst fit over the face to convert it to a soft face hammer. Quite a good idea for a tool in a road box as you only have to carry one!

 

[lok]

That's interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a hammer with hardened edges and corners like that. What's the benefit over the non-hardened versions Gedore makes?

They are all hardened but the edges of these are additionally inductively hardened.

 

[GrantCee]

They are all hardened but the edges of these are additionally inductively hardened.

Why? Isn't it generally a bad idea for a striking implement to be too hard, leading to brittleness?

Since they produce the same model in both normal and inductive hardened versions, there must be a reason — and a downside, otherwise they'd make all of them inductively hardened.

 

[mr.lemons]

There doesn't necessarily have to be any practical downsides to the hardening, maybe just more expense? They also offer the same hammer without rotband for a lower price, so it could just be budget, midrange, posh.

I asked the same question a few months back on here regarding brittleness so do have the same thought/concern. Will report back if I get bits of hammer in my face.

 

[Mr MoAiZo]

GTR put me off the NWS due to them slipping on metal pipe. I would like to try them myself though.

I see. These are the MX ones, not the QuattroGripp.
And yes, I do not like them either as the MX style is less grippy.
I gave them away as well as the Hazet pliers as the teeth are not as aggressive as I want them to be on a water pump plier.

Must find my Gedore again, came to mind that I have them unused.

Still rooting for the NWS QuattroGripp as their teeth are clamping better than ohters IMHO and you can slide them to the corect dimension without pressing the lock/unlock button. It seems NWS are phasing them out.