Tools (Sockets, Wrenches, Spanners) With Sizes in X/64 "?

[YoshiMoshi3]

Does anyone know manufacturers that made tool sets like sockets and wrenches that come with across the flat dimensions specified in X/64 "? For example 21/64 ". I would imagine only a limited amount of tool companies would have made tools in such sizes, and that the list would be rather small. Is there a list somewhere?

I know ignition wrenches in 13/64 " and 15/64 " are still a bit common and still made today. I think I have to get into older stuff to more odd ball sizes.

Please and thanks.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Are you goofing on us? Or do you have a really short memory?! We just went through this a few months ago at the tail end of your very similar thread inquiring about x/32nds sizes.

Here's your query in that thread...

I know this is a bit off topic, but are the 53/64 and 57/64 the only X/64 sockets known to exist? I know that there are some lug nut extractor sockets that are splined drive that are modern made. But I think 53/64 and 57/64 I think are the only vintage made sizes.

Here's my reply...

Mossberg made detachable heavy-duty sockets with an entire range of /64" service opening sizes - from 29/64" to 1-17/64" - in the late 1920's, after pressed steel, before hot-forged. I have a few. See the 29/64" below and a link to my GJ post with photos of other examples and a catalog cut here.

There's little doubt this practice emerged from their propensity for making a range of sockets with /64" service openings in the Brass Era press fit to fixed handle socket wrenches, such as these Tee Handles from my collection.

And another one...

Here is list of Williams socket wrenches made with /64ths sizes.

Followed by a chart. Click on the quotes to access original thread.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Are you goofing on us? Or do you have a really short memory?! We just went through this a few months ago at the tail end of your very similar thread inquiring about x/32nds sizes.

Here's your query in that thread...

Here's my reply...

And another one...

Followed by a chart. Click on the quotes to access original thread.

My bad. I couldn't remember if I created a thread on this or not, specific to this question. I'll take a look again at that. Thanks.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

No worries. I should've put a smiley face in there somewhere.

 

[Mintgrun]

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

So looking at the Williams stuff, it looks like they advertised openings in x/64 " increments on the tool catalogs, but the tools themselves were stamped with x/64 " - 1/64 " increments? Is this accurate?

So a 41/64 " advertised openings in the tool catalog would be stamped with 5/8 " on the physical tool itself. Where the extra 1/64 " in the opening is just for clearance.

Where the Mossberg stuff is different? The tools are stamped with x/64 " on them and are exactly x/64 " in opening with no extra clearance? I remember you had a picture with a measuring tape of one of your x/64 " mossberg sockets and it looked dead on with no extra clearance. Any chance you can please measure with a caliper to confirm the theory?
So a Mossberg 41/64 " stamped tool has an exact opening of 41/64 " and does not have any clearance, meaning the opening is not 83/128 " but is exactly 41/64 " and is effectively a 5/8 " wrench with 41/64 " stamped on it instead?

No worries. I should've put a smiley face in there somewhere.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ Appears to be document spec only. I don't have and I have never seen any of those regular range /64ths wrenches in Williams. Only the Mossberg. And the occasional specials that everyone else has, typically spark plug wrenches.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

^ Appears to be document spec only. I don't have and I have never seen any of those regular range /64ths wrenches in Williams. Only the Mossberg. And the occasional specials that everyone else has, typically spark plug wrenches.

Thanks for confirming. That was the conclusion I was coming to, documented spec only, and not stamped on the tool.

Any chance you could please measure one your x/64 " mossberg tools with a caliper please to see if there is any tolerance over the x/64 " value stamped on it? I'm suspecting that while it has x/64 " stamped on it, it is equivalent to the "normal" sizes that have a 1/64 " tolerance over the value stamped on the tool. Meaning a Mossberg 41/64 " socket is the same exact opening as a regular 5/8 " socket? Mossberg just decided to stamp 41/64 " on a 5/8 " socket?

If it dead on and exactly 41/64 " then I would think so. But if there is some tolerance and it was made to actually be 41/64 " with a small tolerance above that than it may actually be a true 41/64 " socket over simply a 5/8 " socket with 41/64 " stamped on it.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

I'm also coming to the conclusion that Mossberg at one point restamped all of there x/64 " tools to the "normal" values like due to confusion. Is this accurate?
Sample A

Sample B

Both Sample A and Sample B have the same part number 363. But Sample A has 3/4 stamped on the handle while Sample B has 49/64 on it.

I think Sample A came out after sample B.
3/4 " + 1/64 " is 49/64 "
Kind of supports my theory?
The 49/64 " tool is exactly 49/64 " and is the same thing as 3/4 " tool with a 1/64 " tolerance with "49/64" stamped on it. Maybe later on they decided not to stamp it with 49/64 due to confusion and just stamped 3/4 " on it due to confusion. But it's the same exact toll with the same exact opening? They are both exactly 49/64 " in opening and identical tools. One has 3/4 stamped on the tool while the other has 49/64 stamped on it.

I don't have any of these x/64 stamped tools from Mossberg so I can't confirm my theory.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Any chance you could please measure one your x/64 " mossberg tools with a caliper please to see if there is any tolerance over the x/64 " value stamped on it?

You already asked this question on the last thread.

I was wondering would you by any chance be able to measure the openings on one of them to check the tolerance?

And I already answered.

Well, I can't find my mechanical caliper at the moment, and the digital is dead, but this steel rule shows them spot on.

If you click on the quote, it will take you to photos of my measurements.

I'm suspecting that while it has x/64 " stamped on it, it is equivalent to the "normal" sizes that have a 1/64 " tolerance over the value stamped on the tool. Meaning a Mossberg 41/64 " socket is the same exact opening as a regular 5/8 " socket? Mossberg just decided to stamp 41/64 " on a 5/8 " socket?

No. These were explicitly made, advertised, listed, and sold as /64ths specs. As I just said upthread, they made a whole range of heavy-duty sockets to /64ths specs, as well. If you find that quote and click on it, there is another link in that thread to a third thread with more information, tools, and catalog cuts.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

You already asked this question on the last thread.

And I already answered.

If you click on the quote, it will take you to photos of my measurements.

No. These were explicitly made, advertised, listed, and sold as /64ths specs. As I just said upthread, they made a whole range of heavy-duty sockets to /64ths specs, as well. If you find that quote and click on it, there is another link in that thread to a third thread with more information, tools, and catalog cuts.

Yea I remember these two photos. I was just wondering, since it has been some time, if you had found your calipers? By any chance without calipers, could you shift it over so you get one "tic" on the ruler to made up with the edge of the opening to see if there's any clearance? Meaning put this blue tic at the edge of the opening, instead of the edge of the ruler.

This ruler doesn't have a "zero" and maybe with time the edge of the ruler was worn down a little? Also impressive 64th of inch ruler! I wish I had one!

If these are true x/64 " sockets, what would the application be of these "indestructible" sockets be?

For example the 41/64 " would need to have an opening of 41/64 " + clearance?

If there is no clearance, then wouldn't the 41/64 " be the exact same thing as a 5/8 " socket that had clearance?

I'm a bit confused what the difference is here?

Thanks for the help, and sorry for my confusion!

What's your take on two wrenches that have part number, 363, have two different numbers stamped into them?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Should I stand on one leg and scratch my head at the same time?! Kidding, but it is starting to feel like monkey work helping you with your periodic vexation on this nitnoidy topic. I'm not getting them out to measure again. If it's that important for you to resolve what you obviously consider an unresolved issue, you're going to have to pursue it on your own with your own resources.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Should I stand on one leg and scratch my head at the same time?! Kidding, but it is starting to feel like monkey work helping you with your periodic vexation on this nitnoidy topic. I'm not getting them out to measure again. If it's that important for you to resolve what you obviously consider an unresolved issue, you're going to have to pursue it on your own with your own resources.

My bad. I did some more research.

The intended purpose is on the pamphlet. It is intended for fasteners, whose head of bolts or nut across the flats (AF), is 1/64 " less than the size stamped on the socket. So a Mossberg socket with 29/64 " stamped on it was intended for a 7/16 " AF nut or head of bolt.

I was getting the concept mixed up of tolerance vs clearance. These sockets have a 1/64 " clearance over their intended nut or bolt AF to allow placing the socket over the nut or bolt.

A 1/64 " clearance may have been good at the time, but I think it's not close to modern day standards. I've seen reports that Snap-On FDX sockets are 0.01 to 0.02 mm clearance (not sure if it's true or not), and a 1/64 " clearance is ~ 0.4 mm.

I would suspect that these Mossberg sockets would have "lots of slop" for modern day uses over the intended nut and bolt. Maybe it was good clearance at the time, but not now?

Is Mossberg the only one that stamped sockets and wrenches with 1/64 " sizes (except for the more modern spark plug sockets 53/64 and 57/64)?

Have you tried using these Mossberg sockets, are they indestructible or would they get damaged from moderate force to loosen a nut or bolt?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I was getting the concept mixed up of tolerance vs clearance. These sockets have a 1/64 " clearance over their intended nut or bolt AF to allow placing the socket over the nut or bolt.

Of course. There were no regular series of nut and bolt hardware standards (U.S.S., Am Std. HEAVY, AM. Std. LIGHT, A.L.A.M., S.A.E.) specified in /64ths. But that's not the same thing as saying that these Mossberg wrenches with /64ths service openings were just a funny expression of /16ths and /32nds.

I would suspect that these Mossberg sockets would have "lots of slop" for modern day uses over the intended nut and bolt. Maybe it was good clearance at the time, but not now?

The latter. The quality of nuts and bolts was no more precise than the wrenches. In fact, that's what prompted overages to begin with.

Have you tried using these Mossberg sockets, are they indestructible or would they get damaged from moderate force to loosen a nut or bolt?

I don't use any of my antique or vintage tools. Except for unique tools that are made for unique jobs on antique vehicles (e.g., brake bleeder wrenches, Bristol keys for shift forks, etc), they are all on display in a high and dry palce on the Wall of Heyday Hand Tools Fame down in the Lugzsonian.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Of course. There were no regular series of nut and bolt hardware standards (U.S.S., Am Std. HEAVY, AM. Std. LIGHT, A.L.A.M., S.A.E.) specified in /64ths. But that's not the same thing as saying that these Mossberg wrenches with /64ths service openings were just a funny expression of /16ths and /32nds.

The latter. The quality of nuts and bolts was no more precise than the wrenches. In fact, that's what prompted overages to begin with.

I don't use any of my antique or vintage tools. Except for unique tools that are made for unique jobs on antique vehicles (e.g., brake bleeder wrenches, Bristol keys for shift forks, etc), they are all on display in a high and dry palce on the Wall of Heyday Hand Tools Fame down in the Lugzsonian.

I thought you had museum pieces and a rather large collection.

Just adding some additional details about these odd tools, if anyone else stumbles across this and finds it interesting.

Mossberg 1912 Tools Catalog had no /64 inch tools
Mossberg 1918 Tools Catalog had the /64 inch tools
Mossberg 1920 Tools Catalog had the /64 inch tools

Mossberg 1924 Tools Catalog (larger one) /64 inch tools are gone, except (but not really) an interesting oddball that we found an example of above. Note the same part numbers. 1920 version specified the opening to the nearest /64, the 1924 version likely the same exact tool (it's the same part number) with the same opening. But instead of stamping and advertising it to the /64 dimension, they took 1/64 off the actual opening, and listed that value instead. Very interesting!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I thought you had museum pieces and a rather large collection

I do. In my basement. That is The Lugzsonian.

Just adding some additional details about these odd tools,

We have several excellent Mossberg threads, Early. Mid, and Later, just before their merger with APCO. Check the A-Z Index of Threads in the Sticky titled READ B4 POSTING! at the top of this forum.