Toptul Order

[HoosierBuddy]

I'll just throw in an OT thought (as it isn't related to tools per se).

Don't shell out 400 large for inventory unless you are sitting on a $1M of starting capital. Beginning businesses need to treat cash like it's their own plasma. You gotta drip it out at as slow of a rate as possible, especially in the beginning.

If you have collateral (and the inventory you buy could be a lot of that), you can get a line of credit or business loan rather than blow all of your cash on inventory first thing.

The other thing you need to think about is how can this business afford to pay you. If you don't get paid, then it's just a hobby. I've gone a little way down this road myself and it's a hard road.

Phil

 

[Notwerk]

I'd like to see a price list. I wouldn't mind some long pattern metric wrenches.

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

Whatever happen to Mike wren??

 

[DFW-LSX]

Well I dont know at this point guys, I talked to them at length yesterday about advertising and how to succeed in the U.S. market, this is part of the reply I recieved from my account manager.

"It seems good you are familiar with the current TOPTUL customers as you would also know well about TOPTUL product quality and our market position at the same time.

Frankly speaking, our current business is not big in U.S.A. For sure, we would like to establish a bigger TOPTUL professional tools business there if it is possible. It is better if our agent can distribute the full range of TOPTUL products in this market. We know U.S.A. is a big market, so we may do it step by step.

In fact, we normally discuss with customers about distributorship/dealership after the customer has successfully importing and selling TOPTUL products for at least one year period and has successfully completing for more than 3 orders transactions with TOPTUL Taiwan and the each order volume is increasing in a consecutive growth."

What do I gather from that? They want to push into the U.S. market but they want to do it on the dime of an individual. This is looking more and more bleak with each email. Its too bad because I know with their quality and price point they could take over the mid grade tool market.

 

[archirelic]

Sometimes some companies just tend to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[SMKS]

Whatever happen to Mike wren??

Stopped responding to messages, from what I gather. I emailed and I believe called, too (it was a while ago) and never heard a response. Last I heard, he was responding to some voice mails.

 

[willhollin]

Well I dont know at this point guys, I talked to them at length yesterday about advertising and how to succeed in the U.S. market, this is part of the reply I recieved from my account manager.

"It seems good you are familiar with the current TOPTUL customers as you would also know well about TOPTUL product quality and our market position at the same time.

Frankly speaking, our current business is not big in U.S.A. For sure, we would like to establish a bigger TOPTUL professional tools business there if it is possible. It is better if our agent can distribute the full range of TOPTUL products in this market. We know U.S.A. is a big market, so we may do it step by step.

In fact, we normally discuss with customers about distributorship/dealership after the customer has successfully importing and selling TOPTUL products for at least one year period and has successfully completing for more than 3 orders transactions with TOPTUL Taiwan and the each order volume is increasing in a consecutive growth."

What do I gather from that? They want to push into the U.S. market but they want to do it on the dime of an individual. This is looking more and more bleak with each email. Its too bad because I know with their quality and price point they could take over the mid grade tool market.

Testing the water with your money and time by the sounds of it, with no real risk to them.

 

[SMKS]

I think Rotar is a pretty big company, so I'm surprised they won't establish a distribution center in the US.

King Tony has a US distribution center, and I don't think they're very widely distributed. You can find their tools on ebay and at some farm stores.
http://www.kingtonyamerica.com/index.asp

Urrea also has a US facility. They have wider distribution than King Tony, from what I can see.
http://www.urreaprofessionaltools.com/public/pag1.aspx

 

[DHCrocks]

I've bought about $400 worth of toptul stuff and it was all great quality at a great price. stubby and long combo wrenches, flare wrenches, shallow and deep sockets, impact extensions, locking extensions, a bunch of pliers, torx screwdrivers, misc items.
Everything seems to be holding up fine. I wouldn't hesitate to get more stuff from them. For the money I don't think you can do better. Haven't had to warranty anything so I don't know how that process is like, but they way I look at it since it's so cheap if it breaks so what, just purchase a new one.

 

[cwlo]

I have also been very satisfied with my Toptul purchases. Great quality at a great price.

However, there is no representation in the States.

DFW, your communication with Toptul does seem a bit perplexing. It might explain why they have no representation. It almost seems as if they purposely do not want too many in sales. I think you need to look into this a little more. Be upfront with them, and ask them why they don't give more support. Maybe they have a non-compete agreement with the other tool companies they manufacture for? Who knows. But there is the possibility of it being a great opportunity. Don't forget the communication and cultural issues that sometimes can make things seem different than they are.

Good Luck, and I still want to order if you go ahead,

Chris

 

[billymade]

That response from them; does not sound good at all... what kind of support can you expect from them? Well, we will talk to you; AFTER you buy three cargo containers full of tools? It DOES sound like they want all the risk on your end; the money, AND then we will think of supporting, talking to you about the future! This type of talk and attitude; maybe quite revealing in the failed attempts people have made in the past. The issue maybe not so much the quality of the product but more dealing with and lack of support from the company itself! A good product with lack of corporate support; that would not be a good combination (if that is the case). Many here have been happy with the quality of the tools and have said so on this site; I'm sure many could tell you of their experiences having owned them for a number of years now. IF they want to make it in the USA market; THEY are going to have to invest in infrastructure, marketing, distribution etc., not leave it up to one dealer to carry all weight of the load. I think that they are prmarily; a OEM and that is their main business, they probably would like to do their own brand too but for whatever reason, are not willing to invest in the capital to do so. I have seen the pics tool stores they have in Asia (awhile ago, they were promoting this on their website etc.); I wonder if they have/had, a package deal or franchise type of plan for those? I don't know if it would necessarily work but it DOES look like they had or have had in the past (they have a myspace page with pics circa 2007, this sounds like the time they would send out emails, promotions, a number of people were selling the tools in the USA), some sort of game plan for market penetration with brick and mortar stores. There were pics of the stores at one time but I can't seem to find them now... these responses do not sound good to me...

 

[y20dth]

there is a spanish guy in the "tools of the old world" thread that has a toolshop and sells toptul.
Ask him about his experiences/knowledge of toptul distribution etc...
He might have some insights?

 

[The Frisco Kid]

I sent you a PM, but figured I would post here as well. I'd like to help on the stocking and distribution side of the business. Send me a message or email me.

 

[Tornado]

It seems that if Toptul wanted to really sell a lot of tools in the U.S. they would sign up a distributor with deep pockets, such as a big box chain or a distribution channel of industrial supply houses like Grainger for example, to reach a critical mass here in the US. I am wondering if they just can't handle the kind of volume that would generate or what, I just can't seem to figure out what their goal really is.
As far as Mike Wren, I always felt his biggest obstracles to success was no inventory and unwillingness (or maybe not enough financial resources) to provide a simple, easy to use website for customers to place orders. It can be done, i.e. toolsdelivered.com, Harry Epstein, just to name a few.

 

[Ptannjr]

I would try some tools

 

[btbsandman]

It seems that if Toptul wanted to really sell a lot of tools in the U.S. they would sign up a distributor with deep pockets, such as a big box chain or a distribution channel of industrial supply houses like Grainger for example, to reach a critical mass here in the US. I am wondering if they just can't handle the kind of volume that would generate or what, I just can't seem to figure out what their goal really is.
As far as Mike Wren, I always felt his biggest obstracles to success was no inventory and unwillingness (or maybe not enough financial resources) to provide a simple, easy to use website for customers to place orders. It can be done, i.e. toolsdelivered.com, Harry Epstein, just to name a few.

You hit the nail on the head. I would buy some Toptul wrenches if they had an established well respected retailer here in the USA.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

There reply sounds to me, kind of like Snap on, does to its franchisers. (you assume the risk for our benefit)

Mike tried a long LONG LONG time ago, now, to come up with a set of similar to Hansen socket rails, where he would offer them FULL of either chrome or impact sockets. It sounded like he never got Toptul to work with him on that, as it never came to fruition, then he started having more inventory issues, and seems like it went death spiral.

 

[DFW-LSX]

Thanks for all the long thought out responses. A tough decision but im going to look elsewhere. Too bad for them, I think it could have worked but they are dead set on "spend around 200k in tools and advertising then if it picks up we will be more hands on." I'm a young guy, not a dumb one. Like others have said they want to get established over here but they dont want to assume any financial risk. I was working on getting an account with Dun and Bradstreet to get started on attracting a national chain, that was my original intent, then sell to individuals as wanted. It looks like they arent willing to negotiate as far as working hand in hand with me to establish a stateside distribution.

 

[wornoutoldman]

That email sounds like the typical Chinese way of business. You may be reading too much into what appears to us Westerners as a poor attitude or unwillingness on their part to be cooperative. Do they want you to buy in large quantity? Very much so. Their wholesale pricing (yes I requested it myself) is a testament to that. Their catalog is vast and impressive to put it mildly. Perhaps you should plan a bulk purchase of what you feel you can sell in a reasonable amount of time and add to each successive order. In my opinion a few good/smart/researched moves could have you as "The Toptul US Distributer" in a reasonable time period.

"with great risk comes great reward"

PM me if you'd like more of my opinion...

 

[DFW-LSX]

I even looked into the advertising with a cable company...quote: 21,000 PER 30 second commercial...that is solely for the spot not the filming of said commercial. Back to the drawing board.

 

[t100]

It seems that if Toptul wanted to really sell a lot of tools in the U.S. they would sign up a distributor with deep pockets, such as a big box chain or a distribution channel of industrial supply houses like Grainger for example, to reach a critical mass here in the US. I am wondering if they just can't handle the kind of volume that would generate or what, I just can't seem to figure out what their goal really is.

they don't need to worry about the volume, they(Toptul) need worry about getting paid for the product. big box stores like Walmart, HD, Grainger, pay their vendors very very slow.

 

[DFW-LSX]

That email sounds like the typical Chinese way of business. You may be reading too much into what appears to us Westerners as a poor attitude or unwillingness on their part to be cooperative. Do they want you to buy in large quantity? Very much so. Their wholesale pricing (yes I requested it myself) is a testament to that. Their catalog is vast and impressive to put it mildly. Perhaps you should plan a bulk purchase of what you feel you can sell in a reasonable amount of time and add to each successive order. In my opinion a few good/smart/researched moves could have you as "The Toptul US Distributer" in a reasonable time period.

"with great risk comes great reward"

PM me if you'd like more of my opinion...

I was just talking with the wife about this that I could see it going both ways where they either cant break into the U.S. market or in a couple years some schmo is making millions from a couple hundred thousand dollar investment.

 

[franzdom]

Taiwan tools are available like everywhere, I don't think the market demand is really there.

 

[Hawk Thor]

Toptul is a growing and strong brand over here (Iceland). We are right between Europe and America so we have always had good access to Euro and USA tools, we have plenty to compare Toptul to. 1.5 years ago they were pretty much unheard of. Now they are being used by professionals and hobbyists alike.

I have a large amount of 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" drive Toptul sockets, ratchets and breaker bars. Combo wrences 6mm-32mm, files, screwdrivers and a bunch of other stuff.

The quality is really good. I work on commercial fishing ships and rarely use wrenches smaller than 17mm, 10mm and 13mm are just used for very light-duty brackets and such stuff.

I've never broken a Toptul piece, and I don't offer my tools any sympathy. The price of Toptul and the good availability offers me the chance to really push my tools without worries. The plastic handles (Hard green plastic, grippy black rubber) are holding up very well. Almost all fasteners here get a good layer of antiseize, and the handles get very messy. I've cleaned mine with brake cleaner for over a year and the rubber is like new. My 1/2" ratchet has been in bilge water, hydraulic fluid, diesel, sea water and always cleaned with brake cleaner. No rust yet, I do grease the ratcheting mechanism regularly though, just in case.

If you have the capital to make it through the first year to really interest them then I think you should take the leap. I never saw Toptul ads, they've grown very quickly by word of mouth.

 

[plinker]

I never saw Toptul ads, they've grown very quickly by word of mouth.

Word of mouth may be an issue here, most people in my area seem to want either dirt cheap or super quality, as they simply dont know or dont care what's available from an odd /new brand, unless it's from a box store or something.
Boils down to what's convinent for them more or less. I have been happy with the Toptul stuff I have.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

wasn't there a toptul seller named mike wren on GJ a few years ago?
He used to shill toptul on GJ quite a bit. I haven't seen any new posts for a year or so. He must have fallen on hards times...

 

[OEXL16B]

It's to bad they won't let you just sell the sockets because their sockets are their strong point. Their ratchets and combination wrenches are kinda goofy but their sockets are excellent.

 

[Hiball]

Word of mouth may be an issue here, most people in my area seem to want either dirt cheap or super quality, as they simply dont know or dont care what's available from an odd /new brand, unless it's from a box store or something.
Boils down to what's convinent for them more or less. I have been happy with the Toptul stuff I have.

Don't forget that these people that want "Dirt Cheap and Super Quality" Tools are the Same ones who want a Lifetime Warranty. Its Just a bad combination... and Destined to fail.

wasn't there a toptul seller named mike wren on GJ a few years ago?
He used to shill toptul on GJ quite a bit. I haven't seen any new posts for a year or so. He must have fallen on hards times...

Mike Contacted me back in September of Last year, He was trying to Rid himself of some Inventory and was contacting everyone that had bought from him Previously and giving them a additional discount. I didnt ask what his future plans where, But he acted like he was still gonna give it a shot and was in the Process of Placing another order. I have nothing but nice things to say about Mike, He always treated me Fair and im sure i still have his personal contact number in my phone somewhere. I think his major Downfall was getting the tools to the Customers, His Website was Terrible and wasnt getting any Better with time.

 

[plinker]

Don't forget that these people that want "Dirt Cheap and Super Quality" Tools are the Same ones who want a Lifetime Warranty. Its Just a bad combination... and Destined to fail.

That's just it. For the most part up here it's Snap-on, Craftsman or "whatever we can find for the lowest price". Some of that comes from the fact that this was a big farming area.

 

[MarkH]

The size of the USA is a great market, but creates a challenge even in the internet age.

Sales is the key. Not just to a small group but large enough to pay for every higher wholesale prices, cost of living, and cost of business including a profit. So you have to take the wholesale price add in all of the cost of the above which lets you know what the real price will be. Then if that is too high what is the volume to make it go with the lower prices. It is setting up distribution a sales network and a restocking system.

With multiple not great starts the company does not seen to understand floor plans, advertising and the other start up items that normally come with successful business relations here, the risk goes both ways. Otherwise it is just like an independent buy which they service vs a relationship that is required to make a dealer - supplier relation work especially on the volume that will be required to live on it. Finding that right match is part of the hard work.

 

[Hiball]

That's just it. For the most part up here it's Snap-on, Craftsman or "whatever we can find for the lowest price". Some of that comes from the fact that this was a big farming area.

Its a Tough Call.. Obviously Not Everyone Can Afford or Needs Snap On/Truck tools for every job. Im Glad that 90% of my Tool collection is built, Id really hate to have to start from scratch in todays market. If i had to start from scratch, I would probably check my Area and pick a Manufacturer that has a Presence for Future Service. With that said.. Its No Guarantee that they wont change brand (Napa comes to mind) or shutdown completely (SK). Im a Big Fan of Genius tools, Ive seen what they can handle with everyday use as i have a buddy who runs a 2 bay shop, They carry a Lifetime Warranty but since there isnt a Local Presence and there So.. Cheap to begin with, he just absorbs the warranty. The Toptul tools ive Owned have appeared to be First Rate, I bought some Metric X-Long Wrenches and then within a month i found a killer deal on some Cornwells, It wasnt a hard choice for me on which one to keep. Tool companies are always Evolving it seems, Gearwrench for Example and lemme first say i have no 1st hand experience with them but i have read tons of posts where things went downhill when they moved production from Taiwan to China. I wont even bring up Craftsman.... You cant outguess what a Tool company is gonna do in the Future.. in regards to Price/Quality or COO, All you can do is Research the best you can and Jump in with both feet. I just wish i was buying tools back in the Day when you had 50 different choices.. around every corner.

 

[Bull]

Sounds to me like that want you to do too much of the work that they should be doing. I'm not impressed by what they are presenting you with.

 

[matthew]

Keep in mind guys that they're the manufacturer, not the distributor, nor the retailer. At least in the business I work in, a lot of the responsiblities and costs for promotion and for carrying the inventory is borne at the distributor level.

They expect their customers (ie- distributors) to take care of having the inventory. It's the lack of distributors for smaller retailers to buy smaller lots of inventory from that is the problem. Or, put another way, for guys that hope to buy direct from them as a manufacturer and resell directly to end users, is how they get the good prices, but at the cost of not having the sales support. IMO, the important thing the manufacturer needs to offer in this business model would be the ability to submit smaller value orders, and get them filled quickly enough that the smaller distributor/retailer doesn't need millions invested in inventory.

 

[beelsr]

I think Rotar is a pretty big company, so I'm surprised they won't establish a distribution center in the US.

King Tony has a US distribution center, and I don't think they're very widely distributed. You can find their tools on ebay and at some farm stores.
http://www.kingtonyamerica.com/index.asp

Urrea also has a US facility. They have wider distribution than King Tony, from what I can see.
http://www.urreaprofessionaltools.com/public/pag1.aspx

King Tony is really starting to push their tools through the independent mobile dealers distribution channel. In the past few months, they've loaded up on ads in the Mobile Distributor and Professional Tool mags. They even bought onto the "top tools of the month" centerfold list...

I don't have any KT tools but they're putting money behind their mouth.

 

[beelsr]

Thanks for all the long thought out responses. A tough decision but im going to look elsewhere. Too bad for them, I think it could have worked but they are dead set on "spend around 200k in tools and advertising then if it picks up we will be more hands on." I'm a young guy, not a dumb one. Like others have said they want to get established over here but they dont want to assume any financial risk. I was working on getting an account with Dun and Bradstreet to get started on attracting a national chain, that was my original intent, then sell to individuals as wanted. It looks like they arent willing to negotiate as far as working hand in hand with me to establish a stateside distribution.

The chinese culture is really completely different than ours. Their answer really doesn't surprise me - it's typically cautious chinese. is it even the same guy before who was blowing smoke up yours?

remember, too, they are a manufacturing company and don't really get the distribution side of things - at least, not all of them do.

i forgot one other guy to talk to - reversegear; an american who lived in taiwan working for hi-five tools for a number of years. he would have some really good information and advice, i'm sure...

self-interest q: will you still be placing an order?

 

[jvitez]

FWIW, here is another Toptul dealer, a Canuck outfit advertising themselves as "Toptul Distributors of Canada." Does this mean www.thetoolchest.ca gets their tools from BFB?

http://www.bfbhandtools.com/

I've purchased from both these dealers. They seemed like small operations, but their pricing is very good, shipping is by Canada Post so it gets here when it gets here, and both shipped within a few days. It's not tool truck service, but neither is their prices.

Toptul chrome quality is excellent. I love the satin finish on wrenches.. I'm very impressed with the quality and price of their torque wrenches too. If I was a professional tech and didn't care about COO, I'd buy everything I could from Toptul.

But yes, dealing with Chinese culture is very, very different from ours. It's high trust vs low trust. Oriental culture is still very much family oriented, and their governments do not uphold contract law well, therefore they function in a low trust environment which leads to dealing with family member/known acquaintances over strangers. We assume a contract is a contract and the courts will back us up. When the courts don't, we get Mexico. So culture is a very important part of this endeavor, in addition to all other business issues.

 

[Coach James]

King Tony is really starting to push their tools through the independent mobile dealers distribution channel. In the past few months, they've loaded up on ads in the Mobile Distributor and Professional Tool mags. They even bought onto the "top tools of the month" centerfold list...

I don't have any KT tools but they're putting money behind their mouth.

I have one King Tony ratchet and breaker bar plus several King Tony combo wrenches. I like the wrenches because they are this style:

http://www.kingtony.com/products/products_detail.asp?id=800&cid=10&cid1=66&sizeid=0&subid=0

Coach

 

[jptbay]

I have ordered several times form thetoolchest.ca

Tool quality vs. price is fantastic.

I did try to order several things from the catalogue that were not listed on thetoolchest.ca website, when he was going to place his next inventory order. Did not work out though because Toptul places minimum order quantitys on indivdual items. So for example if I wanted a specific tool, toolchest.ca would have to order a minimum of 100 of that exact tool to place the order.

Another gripe is that many of the tool sets have a very strange distribution of sizes. Look at the socket sets. None of them appeal to me because of the sizes offered. They need to look at the Gearwrench sets to see a better way to make socket sets.

 

[plinker]

Another gripe is that many of the tool sets have a very strange distribution of sizes. Look at the socket sets. None of them appeal to me because of the sizes offered. They need to look at the Gearwrench sets to see a better way to make socket sets.

I agree this is an issue as some set's may have 16 & 18, no 17 & 19. And some set's may be the other way around. A practical set in 3/8 drive would include every size from 8mm to 19mm, for example.

 

[ultgar]

Apart from the people on this list, there's not very much demand for Toptul. You can spend $10-15k for a sizeable opening stock order and try to grow things from there.

I think their tools are excellent in quality and finish but to many people, this is just another Taiwanese tool company.

The margins are good on the tools but at the end of the day, a 100% profit on a 20 cent tool is only 20 cents in your pocket. Mike Wren had a pretty good run of it but decided to give up as did the guys in Charlotte before him. I also gave up (at least for now) on the line due to lack of demand and long lead times (60-75 days) to get things in from Taiwan by boat.

Steve D - Ultimate Garage