TopTul > ??? Why No Proof?

[paramudduck]

The testing would show the extreme failure point of that particular tool. For it too prove any thing company wise. You would have to test a large multiple of tools over a number of production runs.

Then average out the median points of failure. And after all that you have an approximate ideal of how those runs would do.

 

[Torque1st]

In that case, you know how expensive it would be to test it, and the amount of tools you would have to run through to get a good standard, which would be 100% cost prohibitive to a part time tool dealer. Get my point?

Exactly, the machines themselves ran about $200K back then, probably $250K+ nowadays. They are used for R&D as well as QC and I suppose some competitor testing. There is much more to testing a wrench, socket, or ratchet than a simple torque to break or yield one time.

 

[nissan_crawler]

nissan, I agree that that much force PROBABLY won't be applied. However, if you are a heavy dude and you like to jump on your wrenches(seen it done), then that test could factor in.

The real issue with that test is not the force that caused the failure, but the way the Snap-On failed. The Toptul deformed, which is good. The Snap-On just broke(and at a lower force). Wrenches should be made to give a failure warning. The Snap-On looks like it was too brittle and not ductile enough and just snapped. The Toptul provided the proper warning.

That being said, how else do you want to test these tools? I want to see quantitative data, not "this is a good wrench, trust me." So, what type of testing would you propose? These are good tests of the engineering IMO. I'm sure this is very similar to how the tool companies themselves test in a lab.

If somebody is jumping on a wrench, they're being a tard and not using them properly. Again, useless info.

Yes, the Snap-On broke instead of deforming, but look at the force involved. Again, nothing it would ever see in proper usage.

 

[Stanger]

If somebody is jumping on a wrench, they're being a tard and not using them properly. Again, useless info.

Yes, the Snap-On broke instead of deforming, but look at the force involved. Again, nothing it would ever see in proper usage.

And again...

That being said, how else do you want to test these tools? I want to see quantitative data, not "this is a good wrench, trust me." So, what type of testing would you propose?

Stress and strain testing is the standard for materials. I have no idea how else you would quantitatively test them.

 

[nissan_crawler]

So are you going to pony up the $10k to do the test? I didn't think so. It's not feasible for him to test the ratchets, nor would it mean much at all. Get a 1/4" ratchet, put a socket on it, and try it on a bolt. Did it come loose? test over.

 

[speed bump]

And again...




Stress and strain testing is the standard for materials. I have no idea how else you would quantitatively test them.

Stress versus strain isn't the standard for metals its just one of the standard tests that you would need to run. The most basic tests are Tensile testing (what you call stress versus strain), hardness testing (Rockwell or Brinell) and ductility testing are the 3 that come to my mind right away when I want to test something metal.

I infact plan on doing a quicky hardness test on the TopTul stuff I ordered to give me a feel for the cutters quality. As far as pulling or breaking the other stuff, maybe this christmas I could get bored and go run a couple dozen wrenches through pull tests and cut up and notch another half dozen and run em through the Charpy impact tester but its a waste of time.

 

[Stanger]

So are you going to pony up the $10k to do the test? I didn't think so. It's not feasible for him to test the ratchets, nor would it mean much at all. Get a 1/4" ratchet, put a socket on it, and try it on a bolt. Did it come loose? test over.

I'm sure Toptul has the equipment to perform those tests. How else would they engineer a tool? If the only requirement of a ratchet is to break a bolt loose then I guess you're right, none of this matters. HF breaks a bolt loose as does Snap-On. That makes them equals in your eyes even though I'm sure HF's metal is inferior as are their designs?

For comparison, I have seen plenty of junk welds that serve their purpose. Does that make that weld as good as a quality, properly penetrated weld? Obviously not. Just because you don't cut and polish every weld and test for porosity doesn't make them all equal. You're basically saying that what you don't know won't hurt you. "So the SK failed ad ** force and the Craftsman failed at *** force." They are both equals in your eyes since you only plan to put x force on it? Even if one is overkill, it is still better as long as it doesn't sacrifice in some other arena(price, ease of use, etc..).

 

[Stanger]

Stress versus strain isn't the standard for metals its just one of the standard tests that you would need to run. The most basic tests are Tensile testing (what you call stress versus strain), hardness testing (Rockwell or Brinell) and ductility testing are the 3 that come to my mind right away when I want to test something metal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no professional engineer yet, just studying. These tests still depend on how the tool reacts to the stress and strain applied to it though, correct? Are they not still the root of the tests?

 

[J.A.F.E.]

I'm sure Toptul has the equipment to perform those tests. How else would they engineer a tool?

Most likely they have the tests done by an outside lab. I'm sure most manufacturers do the same. SO, Stanley and Danaher may do it in house may not. I'm sure the equipment involved is too expensive for all but the largest companies. I'm sure it could only be justified if used at least one full shift a week.

I used to do FCC and UL compliance testing on minicomputer systems and even then most companies - even big ones - used an outside lab exclusively for that work.

But all this begs the basic issue. As consumers we don't know what SO, MAC, Matco, etc have as test results. We trust the brand or we don't.

I'm sure TopTul are very good. Likely one of the reasons they are less expensive than the big brands is there is no large marketing group to support and not a large infrastructure. Just Mike.

Until I have seen one and held it my hand I reserve opinion about the quality but will assume it is worth the money. Personally, I am a bit nationalistic and prefer to buy American if that has any meaning any more. If I was willing to buy Blue Point imports I likely would try TopTul first if for no other reason than to see for myself.

~Steve

Added text:I truly wish Mike the best but he has his work cut out. From what I have seen here he seems to be an honorable individual and I hope his efforts pay off.

 

[Stuey]

I too believe that most manufacturers contact out testing to independent labs at universities or other companies.

Let's see, there's going to be stress vs strain, tensile strength, hardness, microstructure analysis, DEFINITELy flexure, and possibly other tests.

Most companies would probably run real-world simulations as well, but generally for new designs/prototypes.

 

[wrenhandtools]

STeve.......don't give me too much credit yet!!!

The only thing wrong with the big nascar sponsor brands in their business model, which then affects the price, not the quality. Right now they really don't have much risk. They don;t sell really ...directly to you and me. They sell to their drivers..................the drivers are carrying the burden of the risk. Like I have said before, the tool industry here in the US looks almost identical to the cosmetics industry.
Thanks again for your nice comments.

 

[Stanger]

I guess I just can't imagine a tool manufacturer not having that testing equipment. I would perform some of those tests at my university, but I don't have access to the equipment right now. That would be an interesting experiment though.

Data analysis is important in refining the performance of anything, be it a race car or a tool. I guess it could be done by an outside lab, but I think it would be better to just invest in the equipment and save the hassle. I would think the initial cost would pay off pretty quickly.

 

[nissan_crawler]

I'm sure Toptul has the equipment to perform those tests. How else would they engineer a tool? If the only requirement of a ratchet is to break a bolt loose then I guess you're right, none of this matters. HF breaks a bolt loose as does Snap-On. That makes them equals in your eyes even though I'm sure HF's metal is inferior as are their designs?

For comparison, I have seen plenty of junk welds that serve their purpose. Does that make that weld as good as a quality, properly penetrated weld? Obviously not. Just because you don't cut and polish every weld and test for porosity doesn't make them all equal. You're basically saying that what you don't know won't hurt you. "So the SK failed ad ** force and the Craftsman failed at *** force." They are both equals in your eyes since you only plan to put x force on it? Even if one is overkill, it is still better as long as it doesn't sacrifice in some other arena(price, ease of use, etc..).

That's not even close to what I said. As for who is superior or not, THE ONLY THING ASKED was an ultimate strength test, which doesn't mean jack. Now, if you asked about a cyclical test to determine wear, longevity, etc., that would mean something.

Look at the numbers I posted for those wrenches, nearly impossible to get those forces on them.

It's like having a 1/4" socket that will take 200 ft lbs being worse than one that will take 250 ft lbs. Is one better, yes. Who cares? You would break the damn fastener first.

First, testing to yield is NOT determining which tool is better, and second, even if it DID mean that, it would still be pointless if both of them were overbuilt for their use.

 

[autoace]

Toptul may be a good tool, I don't know, or really care. Why get hard to get and warranty Taiwan fare, when the US is already full of it????why wait and it doesn't look that good.

 

[Stanger]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree then Nissan.

Except about the cyclical testing for longevity and wear. Those tests should definitely be performed as well.

 

[speed bump]

I guess I just can't imagine a tool manufacturer not having that testing equipment. I would perform some of those tests at my university, but I don't have access to the equipment right now. That would be an interesting experiment though.

Data analysis is important in refining the performance of anything, be it a race car or a tool. I guess it could be done by an outside lab, but I think it would be better to just invest in the equipment and save the hassle. I would think the initial cost would pay off pretty quickly.

Tool manfuactures probably have certain pieces of equipment that give them a feel for whats happening with the tool. However, consider the cost of a full blown test lab including:
1 or 2 metallurgists or engineers, heres 200 grand a year.
yearly calibration of the machines which has to be done heres another 10 grand a year + downtime.
Facilities, building one and having it set up as a lab $250 grand
Test equipment, couple of million dollars.
+other expenses

The bottom line is unless you are running alot of tools through a lab a year, which you don't becuase once its developed the metallurgists overseeing the monitor how close to correct the steel is coming out and (supposedly) take care of the bad batches (and by bad batches I don't mean "OMG look at we have this little pock mark in the metal S-K is teh suxors. ) you can't pay for it. The amount of testing you do has to be greater than the expenses.

 

[Stanger]

Well, I guess this tool manufacturer is too small then. I don't think it costs as much as you're claiming, but I'm sure it is expensive. Even at those costs, that would be nothing to someone like Snap-On. A lot of those tests can be performed in solid modeling programs, but the finish product still needs to be tested.

 

[speed bump]

Well, I guess this tool manufacturer is too small then. I don't think it costs as much as you're claiming, but I'm sure it is expensive. Even at those costs, that would be nothing to someone like Snap-On. A lot of those tests can be performed in solid modeling programs, but the finish product still needs to be tested.

Ask Toque1st what test gear costs. I know the computer interface quote from ten years ago for our schools Tinius Olsen 30k materials tester was 10 grand. I know that a good metallurgist at the lab where my sister works is making over $80 grand a year (heck for metallurgists and materials engineers if your starting salary offer isn't over $60k I would look elsewhere.) not including the extras the company has to pay for training and benefits. I can tell you when I did weld inspections we had $20k ******* in just one xray tube and the brain box (not including the $10k in a developer and another $5k+ in consumables we went through in in a year) . If you look at places with internal labs for testing its becuase they can keep that lab going with no downtime. Also saying its nothing for SO to build and support a materials/tools testing lab is stupid, if your supporting a lab at $300k a year plus the couple of million dollars it took to build when you could have someone else do that testing at $150k a year and they can certify your product meets ANSI specifications what do you do?

 

[Torque1st]

Normally for a rough figure you can double the employee's base compensation for benefits, training, and other costs associated with employment.

My automated tester was $200K years ago. To buy a similar piece today would run at least $250K if you used my control software and design. If a person had to design and develop a machine like that now it would run about $400-500K. To staff, operate, and maintain a machine like that will cost around $200K a year.

 

[Stanger]

My automated tester was $200K years ago. To buy a similar piece today would run at least $250K if you used my control software and design. If a person had to design and develop a machine like that now it would run about $400-500K. To staff, operate, and maintain a machine like that will cost around $200K a year.

Again, doesn't sound that bad too me for something as essential as testing yield. What did the SO CEO make last year, 7 million? I think he can spare a few bucks for testing.

 

[Torque1st]

That is just one machine of many required. The machine also performed accelerated wear testing.

 

[ZRX61]

The immediate downside I see to these tools is the green color.... & therefore, being a lifelong Kawasaki rider, I see myself spending a ****** fortune

 

[wrenhandtools]

ZR.....it is VERY close to the Muzzy's color!
I can almost feel you needing a price quote!!! lol

 

[rsanter]

the teat is valid somewhat
better would be to install the wrench or ratchet on a load cell and apply a force to the item untill it failed. do the test on all the brands the same way.
At a company I used to work for mt department was in charge of product testing (among other things) and we used to test our products as well as the competition all the time.
in fact I had become known as "the manager of breaking ****" because I could almost always get a product to fail. it might be at 5 times the rated load but rairly could I not break something.

bob

 

[rhandwor]

I downloaded your list but it won't open with excel?

 

[wrenhandtools]

rhand.....computer guy is working on a format (adobe) that is more friendly to all types of computers. Sorry for the problem. If you have certain items or a list you want prices for, just email it to me at the address below.

 

[bchee]

in fact I had become known as "the manager of breaking ****" because I could almost always get a product to fail.

bob

what a dream job. Where do I apply???


your title reminded me of a friend who had such hearty turds, he kept a wire coat hanger next to the toilet to "break his **** up" so it would actually flush down. Sorry. I know it's gross.

 

[nissan_crawler]

what a dream job. Where do I apply???


your title reminded me of a friend who had such hearty turds, he kept a wire coat hanger next to the toilet to "break his **** up" so it would actually flush down. Sorry. I know it's gross.

I've came out asking "where's the potato masher?!" a few times. I get dirty looks.

 

[rsanter]

what a dream job. Where do I apply???


your title reminded me of a friend who had such hearty turds, he kept a wire coat hanger next to the toilet to "break his **** up" so it would actually flush down. Sorry. I know it's gross.

well that was the fun part if it...
I also was responsable for all product certification as well as the calculations and justifications for the products holding up to the load ratings that I gave them.

the funest part was breaking the compeditors parts and debunking their claims. I cannot belive how some companies would twist the rules

bob

 

[ilya]

Mike, I sent you a PM a few days ago. Do you monitor those?

rhand.....computer guy is working on a format (adobe) that is more friendly to all types of computers. Sorry for the problem. If you have certain items or a list you want prices for, just email it to me at the address below.

 

[terabyte]

Mike, I sent you a PM a few days ago. Do you monitor those?

He prefers email he said in a previous post somewhere that he doesn't stay on top of PM's as much.

 

[wrenhandtools]

Ilya, Honestly I do try to keep up on the PMs, but since the business website is where I do business I check it pretty much all the time and is the best place to contact me. It is why I give it at the bottom of every post.

 

[Torque1st]

Ilya, Honestly I do try to keep up on the PMs, but since the business website is where I do business I check it pretty much all the time and is the best place to contact me. It is why I give it at the bottom of every post.

Mike, you might be better off just turning your PM's off in your user CP. It can be a PITA to manage multiple communications channels.

 

[wrenchr]

Well I just placed an order with Mike and he a super nice guy!! That is a very good 1st impression and I will be receiving my tools in a few day's!!

 

[Nix]

Has anyone tried any Toptul impact sockets?

 

[wrenhandtools]

FYI I haven't sold any to anyone and will be getting some in about 60 days. I have one master available is all at the moment.

 

[wrenhandtools]

Torque.............and miss all the fun???? LOL!!!

 

[wrenchr]

Whats the price on tha master set?

 

[paramudduck]

Oh no! wrenchr is on the hunt!

 

[wrenhandtools]

It is set GCAT1807 - $71.95 before the 20% off.
10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,27,30,32mm flank sockets with one 5" extension in the tray to keep stuff organized in your box.